Army Guy Posted September 29, 2009 Author Report Posted September 29, 2009 This has been the worst year for casualties in the war and yet we keep hearing that things are getting better.http://www.icasualties.org/OEF/ByMonth.aspx Yes NATO has suffer more Cas, but NATO or more to the piont the US has increased thier troop numbers by some large numbers, more soldiers being more active in thier AO (area of operations) is going to produce more cas...but this is not a one sided story, the Taliban are faced with a 10 or 20 to 1 loss ratios.... To Sum up someone could also use those same states and quote we are winning the war by killing more taliban....hence the media spin.... Blaming Canadians for having doubts on the long term situation ignores the fact that Canadians support our soldiers all the while they are doing this. The entire piont here is not what Canadians think about the mission, but rather they are not getting the same info form the media, and our government , to make correct and well informed choices....That is what is frustrating soldiers....and yet thier voice is silent , Canadians don't want to here what they have to say, and when the soldier final gets heard, they are discounted as spouting the party line, or they have been ordered to say that....there is a clear majority of Canadians that say they support our troops .....But How can we say we are supporting them but not listening to them.... is that supporting our soldiers.....we should be atleast at the very minimum be listening, and taking that info into account before making a decision should we not.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
DogOnPorch Posted September 29, 2009 Report Posted September 29, 2009 (edited) Not an easy task for even a modern military with land that is very unforgiving. Thank goodness for the AH-64 and the A-10. Ideal for such interdiction with some troop support on the side to count the dead Taliban. As Army Guy mentions 1:20 kill ratio in our favor is going to ruin even the Taliban's day. Edited September 29, 2009 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
jdobbin Posted September 29, 2009 Report Posted September 29, 2009 Yes NATO has suffer more Cas, but NATO or more to the piont the US has increased thier troop numbers by some large numbers, more soldiers being more active in thier AO (area of operations) is going to produce more cas...but this is not a one sided story, the Taliban are faced with a 10 or 20 to 1 loss ratios.... I fully expect the Taliban to take it on the chin regularly. Problem is that there seems to be so many of them. Also, as Canada's top general in the field said yesterday, previously secure areas are letting Taliban back in. It had him plenty steamed this week at the Afghan population. To Sum up someone could also use those same states and quote we are winning the war by killing more taliban....hence the media spin.... It isn't the numbers of casualties, it an indication of progress on securing the nation and handing it over. There is very little faith in the Afghan government. I'm fairly sure that even the Canadian military lacks faith in them. The entire piont here is not what Canadians think about the mission, but rather they are not getting the same info form the media, and our government , to make correct and well informed choices....That is what is frustrating soldiers....and yet thier voice is silent , Canadians don't want to here what they have to say, and when the soldier final gets heard, they are discounted as spouting the party line, or they have been ordered to say that....there is a clear majority of Canadians that say they support our troops .....But How can we say we are supporting them but not listening to them.... is that supporting our soldiers.....we should be atleast at the very minimum be listening, and taking that info into account before making a decision should we not.... Canadians would probably have no problem listening to the soldiers. Ask Harper to let you speak publicly without getting into trouble for it. Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted September 29, 2009 Report Posted September 29, 2009 I respect a solider's opinion. But that is all it is, a soldier's opinion. This solider thinks were are making a difference and not losing the war. How does he knows this? He has a narrow perspective of the war limited to where he is stationed and the areas he has seen. What does he know about the gov't stability and politics of the entire country? About the strength and successes/failures of the insurgents not in his area of deployment? About the other areas of the country? This soldier could very well be making a difference in his area of deployment, but the rest of Afghanistan could be a mess. This is a very complex region and a very complex war. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Army Guy Posted September 29, 2009 Author Report Posted September 29, 2009 Isn't the military that sets the tactics? Yes , but because we do not sieze and hold ground, patroling is the only way to some what ensure the enemy does not gain the upper hand or take control back....This can be blamed not by the tactics we use, but rather the number of troops on the ground and the size of our AO. And as our top soldier said this week, he is steamed that the Afghan population lets insurgents set up explosives in areas previously sweeped. Lossing troops or troops getting injured is a emotional experience, and i can see why he was pissed....but lets but some context into it....NATO has secured the town but has little to no troops in the town long term....Taliban come and go fading into the night leaving behind clear messages to the people "talk to NATO is a death sentence" most of these people are simple farmers, trying to scratch a living out a desert and dust growing anything that will grow...and for the most part they barely exist....The Gen is playing hardball, hopefull it works....but it is going to cost in security of the villagers....and trust me Afghans have long memories...they know we are not there forever... If we to do things that our grandparents did, there would be no ramp ceremonies and soldiers would be buried where they died. Ramp ceremonies are strictly a military thing that has been some what taken over by the media and blown out of proportion ....it's entire function is to let the military look after it's own, in it's tradtional ways....it's a time for soldiers and comrads to say good bye to the fallen, it's thier time to grieve, cry , let emotions flow....15 mins later most of those soldiers are back outside the wire, or in combat....thier heads need to be screwed on tight....or it will be someones elses turn....And your right in traditional wars dead would be buried near the place the fell, marked on a map, given to graves registration to be dug up and properly buried in a marked sight with thier comrads...back in the day when allieds where taking 1 or 2 thousand cas a day.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
jdobbin Posted September 29, 2009 Report Posted September 29, 2009 Thank goodness for the AH-64 and the A-10. Ideal for such interdiction with some troop support on the side to count the dead Taliban. As Army Guy mentions 1:20 kill ratio in our favor is going to ruin even the Taliban's day. I don't doubt the versatility of the aircraft. It is the mountain terrain that is so immense that it has given armies problems as long as there have been war in the region. Quote
Army Guy Posted September 29, 2009 Author Report Posted September 29, 2009 The comparison is irrelevant, they died in acidents. They were not ordered by our government to go in the street and stand in front of cars. I just want to state a few facts first, this entire mission is strickly on a volunteer basis....troops are not ordered to deploy and there is plenty of stop gap measures to ensure only those that have stuck up thier hands go on this mission.... I know sometimes this very fact blows by me, but most soldiers have been to one or more of the worlds for the lack of words "shit holes"....countries that it is impossable to discribe the conditions unless you've seen it smelled it, and touched it........so each soldiers knows just how lucky we have in our freedoms and rights and our standard of living here in Canada....they also know how powerful a gift it is to give someone else those or something simlar "freedoms and rights" So it's not that we've been ordered to stand in front of exploding cars and IED's....we were sent to deliver your gift....from the Canadian people an offer of rights and freedoms they have never had before....and unlike UPS we deliver your gift fully armed.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
DogOnPorch Posted September 29, 2009 Report Posted September 29, 2009 I don't doubt the versatility of the aircraft. It is the mountain terrain that is so immense that it has given armies problems as long as there have been war in the region. You have to want to win at the highest levels. Any other result in warfare is undesirable. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Army Guy Posted September 29, 2009 Author Report Posted September 29, 2009 I fully expect the Taliban to take it on the chin regularly. Problem is that there seems to be so many of them. Not everyone fighting for both sides believes in thier cause...in fact alot of fighters fight to put food on the table...remember there has been over 30 years of war in this region, and for most it is all they know....and since the Taliban pay more than NATO does they do get alot of fighters this way....but this is only one of many ways the Taliban recruit....but come harvest time you can see the taliban going home to pick thier crops...leaving behind only the hard core.... It isn't the numbers of casualties, it an indication of progress on securing the nation and handing it over. There is very little faith in the Afghan government. I'm fairly sure that even the Canadian military lacks faith in them. We don't have to like everything they do, governments are tempory and soon the people once they have security will make there chioces and votes freely and based on other issues instead of picking a government they hope will provide a somewhat normal sense of security....So while there has been Afghan governmental decisions that we thought where funky, it is still thier country to rule as they see fit....and we should not forget that we are not there to model them into our mould but rather one that fits them, thier customs and traditions.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted September 29, 2009 Author Report Posted September 29, 2009 I respect a solider's opinion. But that is all it is, a soldier's opinion. This solider thinks were are making a difference and not losing the war. How does he knows this? He has a narrow perspective of the war limited to where he is stationed and the areas he has seen. What does he know about the gov't stability and politics of the entire country? About the strength and successes/failures of the insurgents not in his area of deployment? About the other areas of the country? With todays tech, the soldiers out in the FOB's are getting the latest media before we evern wake up here in Canada, not only from Canada but the world news from both sides, from CNN, BNN, El jerseria , to CTV news, including news from thru out Europe.NATO Soldiers are kept well informed of what is happening in and thru out Afghan to give them better situational awareness....whats working whats not....it's on the media, it's in O groups , in Intel briefs, it's from soldiers floating in and out of our AO....if anything a soldiers knows more about Afghan than he does about Canada... This soldier could very well be making a difference in his area of deployment, but the rest of Afghanistan could be a mess. The southern area is a mess and we are right in the middle of it.....when was the last time you heard any bad news coming from the north or western half of Afghan..... This is a very complex region and a very complex war. Yes it is and our soldiers are right in the middle of it, they have to understand it , most of the times thier is no diplomats around, so our soldiers are the statesmen, padre, go to guys....understanding thier problems and giving them solutions that work for them is what we do....that being said, we are not experts but i can tell you this we know 100% more about the problems than the media is protraying or letting on.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
wyly Posted September 29, 2009 Report Posted September 29, 2009 It is a bright and cheerful day at Liberal party headquarters whenever a Canadian dies in Afghanistan, because then all the blogging Liberals can get on every web site and blog and tsk, tsk, tsk sadly about another life lost. I recall harper scoring political points with flags at half mast and public appearances with grieving families...where has all that gone??? as the death toll went up harper no longer wants to be associated with it as it draws attention to the folly of the mission...as Taliban Jack correctly said right from the start this war cannot be won by force we should not have gone in... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted September 29, 2009 Report Posted September 29, 2009 The southern area is a mess and we are right in the middle of it.....when was the last time you heard any bad news coming from the north or western half of Afghan..... two reasons...first there are no Canadians in those regions and Canadians don't care what happens to Nato troops there so it's not news worthy for prime time...and 2nd those areas are not Pashtun tribal areas and never had strong Taliban influence... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Jerry J. Fortin Posted September 29, 2009 Report Posted September 29, 2009 I beg to differ, Canadians do care what happens to NATO troops. At least the civilized ones do anyway. Quote
wyly Posted September 29, 2009 Report Posted September 29, 2009 I beg to differ, Canadians do care what happens to NATO troops. At least the civilized ones do anyway. you may but generally speaking, Canadians don't give a damn...ask the next 10 canadians you meet what countries have troops in afghanistan they won't have a clue let alone how many dead they have...media is driven by the home audience and Canadians don't care about troops from Estonia... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
M.Dancer Posted September 29, 2009 Report Posted September 29, 2009 I beg to differ, Canadians do care what happens to NATO troops. At least the civilized ones do anyway. I agree. Hence the recent deaths of Italian forces got wide media coverage not only in Italy but in Canada and the rest of the civilized world. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Topaz Posted September 29, 2009 Report Posted September 29, 2009 I just want to state a few facts first, this entire mission is strickly on a volunteer basis....troops are not ordered to deploy and there is plenty of stop gap measures to ensure only those that have stuck up thier hands go on this mission....I know sometimes this very fact blows by me, but most soldiers have been to one or more of the worlds for the lack of words "shit holes"....countries that it is impossable to discribe the conditions unless you've seen it smelled it, and touched it........so each soldiers knows just how lucky we have in our freedoms and rights and our standard of living here in Canada....they also know how powerful a gift it is to give someone else those or something simlar "freedoms and rights" So it's not that we've been ordered to stand in front of exploding cars and IED's....we were sent to deliver your gift....from the Canadian people an offer of rights and freedoms they have never had before....and unlike UPS we deliver your gift fully armed.... Army guy, are you saying that anyone in the military, doesn't have to do, at least, one tour in Afghanistan? Quote
M.Dancer Posted September 29, 2009 Report Posted September 29, 2009 Army guy, are you saying that anyone in the military, doesn't have to do, at least, one tour in Afghanistan? Are you seriously saying you didn't know that? Sort of changes things...and casts quite a bright light on the bravery of canadian soldiers. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Army Guy Posted September 30, 2009 Author Report Posted September 30, 2009 two reasons...first there are no Canadians in those regions and Canadians don't care what happens to Nato troops there so it's not news worthy for prime time...and 2nd those areas are not Pashtun tribal areas and never had strong Taliban influence... Are you saying that Canadians are not keeping up with the total picture of whats happening in Afghanistan ? Then how are they making well informed decisions about this mission ? How can they honestly make any comments at all about the mission. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted September 30, 2009 Author Report Posted September 30, 2009 Army guy, are you saying that anyone in the military, doesn't have to do, at least, one tour in Afghanistan? Are you seriously saying you didn't know that?Sort of changes things...and casts quite a bright light on the bravery of canadian soldiers. Thanks Dancer, Every Soldier is a volunteer, so many volunteer in fact they have to screen them, medically, mental health, Padre, even your spouse has to sign off as approving along with many others....any problems in those areas member is rejected from tour until the problem is fixed. Anyone that is saying they where forced into going is a lair. That being said some trades are smaller than others there is Soldiers that have 5 or more tours...in Afghan....just to put that into some context thats 2 1/2 years of combat experience, 2 1/2 years away from wives, children, and family.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
M.Dancer Posted September 30, 2009 Report Posted September 30, 2009 Anyone that is saying they where forced into going is a lair. That being said some trades are smaller than others there is Soldiers that have 5 or more tours...in Afghan....just to put that into some context thats 2 1/2 years of combat experience, 2 1/2 years away from wives, children, and family.... It is my opinion that anyone who has done 3 tours should be exempted from further combat and be placed as an instructer in Combat school. That, after a long paid holiday for them and there families in some far away resort where they are treated like the VIPs they are. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
wyly Posted September 30, 2009 Report Posted September 30, 2009 Are you saying that Canadians are not keeping up with the total picture of whats happening in Afghanistan ? Then how are they making well informed decisions about this mission ? How can they honestly make any comments at all about the mission. that's what I find to be true...some are well informed but generally Canadians don't have clue, they believe what the media tells them and the media tells them what they think Canadians want to hear... many of our political leaders are historically, militarily ignorant they themselves are not qualified to make informed decisions...shouldn't a defense minister actually have military expertise, what knowledge does a lawyer have in military matters? Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
M.Dancer Posted September 30, 2009 Report Posted September 30, 2009 ...shouldn't a defense minister actually have military expertise, what knowledge does a lawyer have in military matters? We had one of those recently and he was somewhat incompatant. Ministerial positions are political, they require adminsitrative and political know how and the ability to bring talent into the picture....we don't ask that the minister of transportation be a truck driver or the minister of labour be a labourer...or the minister of Health be sick...or a doctor Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted September 30, 2009 Report Posted September 30, 2009 Are you saying that Canadians are not keeping up with the total picture of whats happening in Afghanistan ? Then how are they making well informed decisions about this mission ? How can they honestly make any comments at all about the mission. Don't forget the many Canadians who can see the total picture in which Afghanistan is just another interlocking piece. There's no way anyone can say their opinions or comments about the mission are informed without that ability. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
wyly Posted September 30, 2009 Report Posted September 30, 2009 We had one of those recently and he was somewhat incompatant.Ministerial positions are political, they require adminsitrative and political know how and the ability to bring talent into the picture....we don't ask that the minister of transportation be a truck driver or the minister of labour be a labourer...or the minister of Health be sick...or a doctor and that is one of the weaknesses of our electoral system...we can't elect experts for the job, we elect random people with random qualifications and the PM doles out jobs to those most capable even though they have no qualification for that particular job...the minister of defense should have expertise in military matters someone such as Gwyn Dyer, ex military, historian, political science....minister of health should be someone with a healthcare background...Finance, a least a degree in economics...Justice, a lawyer of course... what corporate sector would hire someone with no qualification to run a corporation? Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
M.Dancer Posted September 30, 2009 Report Posted September 30, 2009 (edited) what corporate sector would hire someone with no qualification to run a corporation? You are assuming that you need something other than a high degree of organizational skill to run a ministry. Corporations often hire executives who have no experiance in what the corporation does...for instance Media often hires senior people who do not have media experiance....but the do have corporate adminsitration experiance. Like I said, we had a General as Minister of Defense and he was a flop. Peter Mckay has done far better. Edited September 30, 2009 by M.Dancer Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
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