Knives come out

[punked]

Ignatieff has 'put absolutely nothing on the table,' say Liberal insiders

http://www.thehilltimes.ca/html/index.php?...atieff/&c=2

Where is Dobbin to tell me how united they are.

[punked]

More Liberal infighting this time Iggy wont let a former MP run in his old ridding which is now held by the NDP.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/20...nomination.html

[Topaz]

Iggy is right in what he is doing... he's putting a woman in with business experience and the other guy was too close to Chretien.

[capricorn]

More Liberal infighting this time Iggy wont let a former MP run in his old ridding which is now held by the NDP.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/20...nomination.html

I had been thinking this Cauchon/Coderre tangle merits a thread. Your post jogged me to do so.

[Shady]

Where is Dobbin to tell me how united they are.

He's too busy posting 'Harper burned his toast this morning' threads.

[jdobbin]

He's too busy posting 'Harper burned his toast this morning' threads.

There is that personalization that we have come to know and love about you.

How about a post on how Obama burnt his toast this morning, huh? It is a real derangement syndronme with some people.

[fellowtraveller]

Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff is lagging behind Prime Minister Stephen Harper in recent public opinion polls because Canadians still don't know what the Grit leader stands for.

He stands for 'traditional Liberal values".

That used to be enough to win majorities, has something changed?

[Moonbox]

There is that personalization that we have come to know and love about you.

How about a post on how Obama burnt his toast this morning, huh? It is a real derangement syndronme with some people.

You start a lot of threads on this forum and a good portion of them are about REALLY trivial stuff that nobody cares about.

That's not personalizing. That's stating fact. He added a little comedy to it, but he didn't say anything crazy.

[nicky10013]

First of all, the knives would be out if they were calling for Iggy's job. Not happening. Nice spin. Secondly, I guarantee you this Liberal source was probably the assistant of the dude who isn't getting the nomination.

As for the high ranking Liberal pissed that nothing has been put out yet, I can understand the frustration, I'm frustrated too. However, the fact is that if Ignatieff puts out the party's platform tomorrow, it gets hammered by the Conservatives in commercials and in the House until the day of the vote. It doesn't look good now but this goes back to something I've posted MANY MANY MANY times before. Pre-writ polls DON'T matter. The platform will come out when it needs to and people will judge the party for what it stands for then, not what it doesn't now.

[punked]

First of all, the knives would be out if they were calling for Iggy's job. Not happening. Nice spin. Secondly, I guarantee you this Liberal source was probably the assistant of the dude who isn't getting the nomination.

As for the high ranking Liberal pissed that nothing has been put out yet, I can understand the frustration, I'm frustrated too. However, the fact is that if Ignatieff puts out the party's platform tomorrow, it gets hammered by the Conservatives in commercials and in the House until the day of the vote. It doesn't look good now but this goes back to something I've posted MANY MANY MANY times before. Pre-writ polls DON'T matter. The platform will come out when it needs to and people will judge the party for what it stands for then, not what it doesn't now.

How about Iggy trying to run sitting MPs out of town? Sounds like knives to me.

[Moonbox]

The platform will come out when it needs to and people will judge the party for what it stands for then, not what it doesn't now.

The only problem with this is that the CPC can define the LPC now while they don't have a platform, which is what they have been doing. This is media spin from one camp vs media spin from the other. Last time the CPC picked apart the Liberal platform into nothing, but that wasn't because it was released early, but rather because the LPC did a terrible job articulating and defending it.

Just because you don't have a platform doesn't mean you have immunity to media and public perception. You still have to identify yourself to the electorate and define yourself before the opposition gets a chance to. Right now Ignatieff isn't doing anything, falsely believing that he's immune to media spin because he hasn't taken a stand on anything. The problem is that instead of dismantling his platform, now the opposition can criticize him for his bluster, flip-flopping and relative ineffectiveness in the House.

You don't get a free ride for not telling people what you stand for. Whether you poorly articulate a controversial platform, or you fail to provide a platform at all, the opposition will still make you look bad. It's your job to make yourself look competent, effective and principled. Popping out of nowhere with an election platform after a year (or more) of watching the electorate's confidence you gradually erode is not sound political strategy, and we'll see this if we have an election soon.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Moonbox

[jdobbin]

You start a lot of threads on this forum and a good portion of them are about REALLY trivial stuff that nobody cares about.

And yet you respond anyway. It is very easy to ignore threads and posters. They even supply a button to make it more efficient.

That's not personalizing. That's stating fact. He added a little comedy to it, but he didn't say anything crazy.

It is still personalizing and coming from someone who has such an obsession with all things Obama, it is a little rich.

[Oleg Bach]

I will never get over the joyfully weeping woman who witness the Obama electoral win. They looked like crazed saints who had just seen the image of Christ on a gigantic slice of burnt toast. Emotion...all is controled by emotion...hence the biblical terminolgy that states "Sensuality is a sin" - IN other words if you are moved by your senses you can be moved by anything..Obama move the nation though their senses not their logic.

[Topaz]

One thing about Harper's minority government is he keeps saying to the oppositions party if you have ideas then pass them on. Well, this could be good for Harper but bad for the others especially the Libs. IF the Libs gave him all their ideas then Harper would get the benefits and the credits for them. If Harper had a majority he wouldn't spend one ounce of time asking for help he'd be telling and doing what HE wanted to do. So the Libs should keep their ideas to themselves until election time.

[Oleg Bach]

Lets all merge all parties and have one huge dictatorship where we are all envolved..may as well go American..

[Who's Doing What?]

First of all, the knives would be out if they were calling for Iggy's job. Not happening. Nice spin. Secondly, I guarantee you this Liberal source was probably the assistant of the dude who isn't getting the nomination.

As for the high ranking Liberal pissed that nothing has been put out yet, I can understand the frustration, I'm frustrated too. However, the fact is that if Ignatieff puts out the party's platform tomorrow, it gets hammered by the Conservatives in commercials and in the House until the day of the vote. It doesn't look good now but this goes back to something I've posted MANY MANY MANY times before. Pre-writ polls DON'T matter. The platform will come out when it needs to and people will judge the party for what it stands for then, not what it doesn't now.

I think they should take a page out of the CPC playbook and make a single platform/policy statement every other day during the election campaign, so that they are always in the news and getting free air time. I thought this was very effective strategy by the CPC. THere is no need to lay out a plan and give the other parties months to comb through it and disect every little detail.

[punked]

The smell of an Election, the Cons Touching 40% NDP 20% Liberals in a noise dive. Must be time for the Liberals to eat their own. This time former Ignatieff cheerleader writes a less then stirring article about how Ignatieff might be the horrible but he all they got.

http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/warren_kinsella/2011/03/01/17449151.html

[GWiz]

First of all, the knives would be out if they were calling for Iggy's job. Not happening. Nice spin. Secondly, I guarantee you this Liberal source was probably the assistant of the dude who isn't getting the nomination.

As for the high ranking Liberal pissed that nothing has been put out yet, I can understand the frustration, I'm frustrated too. However, the fact is that if Ignatieff puts out the party's platform tomorrow, it gets hammered by the Conservatives in commercials and in the House until the day of the vote. It doesn't look good now but this goes back to something I've posted MANY MANY MANY times before. Pre-writ polls DON'T matter. The platform will come out when it needs to and people will judge the party for what it stands for then, not what it doesn't now.

APPLAUSE, APPLAUSE! Finally someone who has the simple capacity to actually rationalize something!

Right on my friend, EXACTLY what I've been saying since I joined this board...

[Saipan]

However, the fact is that if Ignatieff puts out the party's platform tomorrow, it gets hammered by the Conservatives in commercials and in the House until the day of the vote. It doesn't look good now but this goes back to something I've posted MANY MANY MANY times before. Pre-writ polls DON'T matter. The platform will come out when it needs to and people will judge the party for what it stands for then, not what it doesn't now.

You mean Ignatieff stands for something?

Is it the same thing as last week? Or did he changed again?

[GWiz]

The smell of an Election, the Cons Touching 40% NDP 20% Liberals in a noise dive. Must be time for the Liberals to eat their own. This time former Ignatieff cheerleader writes a less then stirring article about how Ignatieff might be the horrible but he all they got.

http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/warren_kinsella/2011/03/01/17449151.html

1. Liberals -- within and without caucus -- are weary of the decade-long leadership tong wars. They saw what it did to the party's fortunes, and they don't want it to happen again. Having emerged from the political burn unit, they don't want to go back there.

2. They're not ready yet. Liberals need more money, more on-the-ground strength, and a winning ballot question. The Grits require more time to get Ignatieff and the party battle- ready.

3. Ignatieff is a better politician than what he was. Unlike his predecessor, he speaks French and English well, he doesn't favour a carbon tax, and he's getting increasingly comfortable in his skin. He also has been wildy underestimated by the Harper team, which is never a bad thing.

4. If some Grits are again agitating for a pre-campaign leadership coup, there is no obvious successor waiting in the wings. Justin Trudeau and Martin Cauchon are facing tough election battles in their Montreal constituencies, while the likes of David McGuinty and Dominic LeBalanc are focused more on the daily task of opposing the prime minister, and not the Leader of the Opposition. All four are terrific leadership material, but all four are focused on the task at hand.

5. Liberals know the moment someone moves to dump Ignatieff, Harper will make his move, too -- for an election.

The Tory leader will concoct some pretext to rush to the polls while Grits are in the midst of a costly, time-consuming leadership contest.

So, the Liberal leader you see is the Liberal leader you'll get. Liberals are girding for battle.

With Michael Ignatieff. -

Not really a bad analysis of the situation, especially the one I put in bold...

You wanna do one on Layton being at 13% and dropping now?

[punked]

1. Liberals -- within and without caucus -- are weary of the decade-long leadership tong wars. They saw what it did to the party's fortunes, and they don't want it to happen again. Having emerged from the political burn unit, they don't want to go back there.

2. They're not ready yet. Liberals need more money, more on-the-ground strength, and a winning ballot question. The Grits require more time to get Ignatieff and the party battle- ready.

3. Ignatieff is a better politician than what he was. Unlike his predecessor, he speaks French and English well, he doesn't favour a carbon tax, and he's getting increasingly comfortable in his skin. He also has been wildy underestimated by the Harper team, which is never a bad thing.

4. If some Grits are again agitating for a pre-campaign leadership coup, there is no obvious successor waiting in the wings. Justin Trudeau and Martin Cauchon are facing tough election battles in their Montreal constituencies, while the likes of David McGuinty and Dominic LeBalanc are focused more on the daily task of opposing the prime minister, and not the Leader of the Opposition. All four are terrific leadership material, but all four are focused on the task at hand.

5. Liberals know the moment someone moves to dump Ignatieff, Harper will make his move, too -- for an election.

The Tory leader will concoct some pretext to rush to the polls while Grits are in the midst of a costly, time-consuming leadership contest.

So, the Liberal leader you see is the Liberal leader you'll get. Liberals are girding for battle.

With Michael Ignatieff. -

Not really a bad analysis of the situation, especially the one I put in bold...

You wanna do one on Layton being at 13% and dropping now?

Would love to but I don't think that is where the NDP sit. If you look at that poll they say they are at 5% in Quebec and that is where that 5 point drop came from. I don't think they are at 5% in Quebec and to that end I don't think the Liberals are at 27% in Quebec. Good try though but I understand math and stats so I know the NDP aren't at 13%.

I should also point out even with that 13% all the election prediction models are still predicting the NDP to get 30 seats and the Liberals to fall to 60. Sorry bad news for you no me.

Edited March 2, 2011 by punked

[GWiz]

Would love to but I don't think that is where the NDP sit. If you look at that poll they say they are at 5% in Quebec and that is where that 5 point drop came from. I don't think they are at 5% in Quebec and to that end I don't think the Liberals are at 27% in Quebec. Good try though but I understand math and stats so I know the NDP aren't at 13%.

I should also point out even with that 13% all the election prediction models are still predicting the NDP to get 30 seats and the Liberals to fall to 60. Sorry bad news for you no me.

Me thinks that Layton isn't looking to lose seats 'cause that'd mean him being tossed by the party on his...

Sooooooooo,

he's going to vote FOR the budget by taking "credit" for something in the budget, even if Harper doesn't give him a thing, which he won't 'cause I think Harper wants this election...

As for your assessment of the numbers; I find it rather starange that ONLY the NDP numbers are "skewed" and the rest, particularily for the Liberals, are "spot on", don't you?

You wouldn't be biased in that analysis by any chance?

"It's not the situation, but the way we respond to the situation that's important."

[punked]

Me thinks that Layton isn't looking to lose seats 'cause that'd mean him being tossed by the party on his...

Sooooooooo,

he's going to vote FOR the budget by taking "credit" for something in the budget, even if Harper doesn't give him a thing, which he won't 'cause I think Harper wants this election...

As for your assessment of the numbers; I find it rather starange that ONLY the NDP numbers are "skewed" and the rest, particularily for the Liberals, are "spot on", don't you?

You wouldn't be biased in that analysis by any chance?

"It's not the situation, but the way we respond to the situation that's important."

I think you are thinking of Liberals, in the Liberal party if you lose seats you get tossed. That isn't so true with the NDP, I think all our leaders or close to all of them have lost seats many many many times. We didn't through them to the wolves. You really know nothing don't you? The NDP aren't the Liberals it isn't about winning so we can give our friends jobs and steal Canadians money. It is about running on what we believe and sticking to that. That makes losing not such a big deal as long as we can still influence the government to push for the right choices for Canadians. No wonder you love the Liberals so much it isn't about what you believe it is about winning. Bring on the election I will take a loss if it means furthering social justice.

They aren't Spot on I made that point I think the Liberals are much much lower because I know they aren't at 27% in Quebec. Why are the Liberals numbers high? It is because the Greens aren't in this poll and something like 70% of greens put Liberals as second choice the Liberals are really at 23% in this poll when you take that into account.

Not bias I just understand polling. I think the Ipsos is a terrible poller however their numbers show who has momentum and it aint either the NDP or the Liberals.

[GWiz]

I think you are thinking of Liberals, in the Liberal party if you lose seats you get tossed. That isn't so true with the NDP, I think all our leaders or close to all of them have lost seats many many many times. We didn't through them to the wolves. You really know nothing don't you? The NDP aren't the Liberals it isn't about winning so we can give our friends jobs and steal Canadians money. It is about running on what we believe and sticking to that. That makes losing not such a big deal as long as we can still influence the government to push for the right choices for Canadians. No wonder you love the Liberals so much it isn't about what you believe it is about winning. Bring on the election I will take a loss if it means furthering social justice.

They aren't Spot on I made that point I think the Liberals are much much lower because I know they aren't at 27% in Quebec. Why are the Liberals numbers high? It is because the Greens aren't in this poll and something like 70% of greens put Liberals as second choice the Liberals are really at 23% in this poll when you take that into account.

Not bias I just understand polling. I think the Ipsos is a terrible poller however their numbers show who has momentum and it aint either the NDP or the Liberals.

You're the arch-typical NDPer; when you got nothing blame the Liberals...

Let me assist you in describing the NDP as you described the Liberals...

No wonder you love the NDP so much it isn't about what you believe... It is ONLY about winning whatever seats you can to make the NDP look relevent when 85+% of Canadians know they are no longer relevent on the Canadian political scene... The NDP would sell out their own mother for a single extra seat in parliament which is why they attack the Liberals at every turn instead of attacking the Government even though it gives the CONS exactly what they want from the NDP...

I think you are thinking of the NDP, in the NDP party if you lose seats you get tossed... Historically no NDP leader has survived a lose of NDP seats including Ed Broadbend who was the best leader, with the most seats, the NDP ever had...

The NDP under Layton are a party of "has beens" that stand for nothing, certainly not labour and/or the downtrodden... A FACT that people like Ed Broadbend and Buzz Hargrove, staunch old TIME NDPers that actually cared about what the NDP stood for during their TIME, have stated publicly...

Since I'm not a member of the Liberal party so I think I'm a whole lot more "unbiased" than YOU are...

So feel free to say anything you want, especially against the Liberals, 'cause it's no skin of my false teeth even if the Liberals were to end up in 4th place, putting the NDP in 5th, after the next election, whenever that may be...

Let me analyze this the way you did:

The NDP lose 12 seats, the Bloc stays the same, and the CONS and Liberals each gain 6... Where would that leave the NDP in the "political spectrum"?

Hmmm, I think I could live with that outcome...

POWER to the BLOC (better them than the NDP)!

[punked]

I think you are thinking of the NDP, in the NDP party if you lose seats you get tossed... Historically no NDP leader has survived a lose of NDP seats including Ed Broadbend who was the best leader, with the most seats, the NDP ever had...

Historically that is funny coming from you because you know nothing about Canadian politics. Here let be run some Historics by you so you can eat some more crow.

1962 19 seats Leader Tommy Douglas

1963 17 seats a 2 seat loss the leader the next year AFTER THE SEAT LOSS? Tommy Douglas

1980 32 seats leader Ed Broadbent

1984 30 seats a 2 seat loss the leader the next year AFTER A SEAT LOSS? Ed Broadbent. BTW You actually cited in your post as an example he never survived a seat loss HAHAHAHAHA!

1997 21 seats leader Alexa McDonough

2000 13 seats a loss of 8 seats the leader for the next 3 years? Alexa McDonough.

You really know nothing. You pretend you know something but you are like most Liberals ill informed.

The NDP under Layton are a party of "has beens" that stand for nothing, certainly not labour and/or the downtrodden... A FACT that people like Ed Broadbend and Buzz Hargrove, staunch old TIME NDPers that actually cared about what the NDP stood for during their TIME, have stated publicly...

Since I'm not a member of the Liberal party so I think I'm a whole lot more "unbiased" than YOU are...

Going call you a straight up liar here at was at convention 2 years ago when Broadbent said we need the NDP now more then ever so just going to call you what you are in this case.

So feel free to say anything you want,

Why not right? You clearly do even if they are lies half truths and opinions that are clearly wrong.

especially against the Liberals, 'cause it's no skin of my false teeth even if the Liberals were to end up in 4th place, putting the NDP in 5th, after the next election, whenever that may be...

Let me analyze this the way you did:

The NDP lose 12 seats, the Bloc stays the same, and the CONS and Liberals each gain 6... Where would that leave the NDP in the "political spectrum"?

Hmmm, I think I could live with that outcome...

POWER to the BLOC (better them than the NDP)!

It wouldn't leave them anywhere. They lost caucus in 1993 meaning they couldn't even ask questions in the house didn't stop us from taking 21 seats the next election. We might be down and out for a little bit but the party isn't the Liberals. They aren't a brokerage/patronage party they win and lose on ideas and people not on favors and running as "we aren't the other guy".