NDP support for Tories sign of broader strategy

[jdobbin]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianp...U9UlRZAvYSe4YEA

After 10 days of intense political manoeuvring that brought the country to the brink of another election, Jack Layton's party has been pilloried by pundits, mocked by the Opposition, and forced to explain repeatedly why, after vigorously opposing the governing Tories for months, it has suddenly switched course.

"It's been a political loser for them," said Peter Graefe, assistant professor of political science at McMaster University in Hamilton, and a specialist on the NDP. "So far, it's been a bit of a media disaster."

The article says it is a gamble.

They go on to say that Layton is following Doer and Dexter's formula.

That might be a bit of a reach considering that both took a long time to build support. Layton won't be able to go from fourth place to government as easily within the federal dynamic. And given the loss of moral high ground, they might find it difficult to support the government from here till 2011.

[Moonbox]

I think all it does is make the Tories look good. When you have a series of different parties propping them up, it almost starts to look like they're able to run a minority properly.

[Topaz]

I think all it does is make the Tories look good. When you have a series of different parties propping them up, it almost starts to look like they're able to run a minority properly.

This isn't going to last forever and Layton will join the Libs and the Bloc and bring the Tories down, its just a matter of time. IF the Bloc wasn't there , then the NDP would have even more power from either Tories and the Libs, whom ever was the seating government. I still don't think the Tories would get a majority in any election under Harper.

[Machjo]

Actually, I think a 'third-way' party might be good for Canada. A few provincial NDP governments and a few federal Liberal governments have managed to pull it off in the past. If any Canadian political party could present itself as the federal 'third-way' party of choice, it might attract much support among those who'd like to see a less partisan or ideological Parliament capable of borrowing good ideas freely equally from both the right and the left.

[daniel]

Just goes to show you how the Tories will do anything to grab onto power - even aligning themselves with socialists and separatists.

[punked]

Just goes to show you how the Tories will do anything to grab onto power - even aligning themselves with socialists and separatists.

If I hear another Liberal use the words socialists and separatists I am going to puke. This wont win you any NDP votes eh?

[jdobbin]

I think all it does is make the Tories look good. When you have a series of different parties propping them up, it almost starts to look like they're able to run a minority properly.

My guess is that Harper will take a number of opportunities to test this with several well placed kicks to the balls for the NDP in take it or leave it politics.

[wyly]

everyone puts way too much importance on who is doing deals with who...the canadian populace is not that politically astute and don't have long memories, picking on the NDP for being practical and dealing with the cons while forgetting Harper did the same a few years ago dealing with the ndp and the bloc is good example...

no party wants this election other than the cons but no party wants to be accused of triggering an election, the libs have moved into a more comfortable position in opposition which was an astute move by Iggy...Harper can't call an election because he'll have passed his legislation and the ndp has influenced the legislation and the Bloc is satisfied with the status quo.... it's a win, lose, win, win situation....the cons call an election early it won't be something they can pin on the libs...if the opposition brings down the government expect it after the olympics when unemployment is high...canadians will not remember who supported who in parliment...

[Alex Moore]

The explanation I have heard for jack Layton's decision has been that the NDP aren't ready for an election. If that's the case then I wonder how long this will last or If he'll end up another Dion.

[OddSox]

Just goes to show you how the Tories will do anything to grab onto power - even aligning themselves with socialists and separatists.

Wow - some people have been complaining forever that the Tories refuse to work with others "to make parliament work" or some such drivel, yet once they actually make an attempt at it, you start throwing things!

Besides (1) it was the other way around - the socialists and the separatists aligned themselves with the Tories without being asked to!, and (2) one vote in the house is not quite the same thing as a formal, written agreement which everybody (yes, every body including Mr. Ignatieff) signed onto.

Edited September 19, 2009 by OddSox

[Machjo]

I have noticed inconsistencies in the arguments against the Conservative Party. I appreciated the wilingness of the Liberals and NDP to form a co-alition with Bloc support, but consistency also requires me to support attemts at colaboration between the NDP, Conservatives and Bloc too.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

It makes me laugh when both the Liberals and the Conservatives refer to the NDP and the Bloc as socialists and separatists. They both do it when the other guy is getting support and they are not, its hilarious.

[OddSox]

It makes me laugh when both the Liberals and the Conservatives refer to the NDP and the Bloc as socialists and separatists. They both do it when the other guy is getting support and they are not, its hilarious.

Uh, what else should we call them?

[punked]

Uh, what else should we call them?

Try Progressives.

[Visionseeker]

I think all it does is make the Tories look good. When you have a series of different parties propping them up, it almost starts to look like they're able to run a minority properly.

There might be some modest improvement in Tory support in the short term for that very reason. But the longer the NDP and Bloc keep propping-up Harper's team, the more they run the risk of losing those in their own camps who really can't stand Harper. The longer Iggy gets to play Mr Principles, the more he's apt to win support from the left and federalist Quebeckers.

[punked]

There might be some modest improvement in Tory support in the short term for that very reason. But the longer the NDP and Bloc keep propping-up Harper's team, the more they run the risk of losing those in their own camps who really can't stand Harper. The longer Iggy gets to play Mr Principles, the more he's apt to win support from the left and federalist Quebeckers.

Not if they do it and still don't go against their core values. I am ok with the NDP voting for an EI bill that is why I vote NDP I agree with that. The difference is when the Liberals were supporting the Cons they were going against the values most think they stand for. Yep they voted for the budget but in that budget was an Omnibus bill for Bill C-10 elimination of the fight for pay equity in the work place. See that is where the NDP and Liberals are different I would be pretty mad at the NDP for voting for that although Liberals were fine with it. As long as the NDP is not voting against our core values I will support them, Liberals don't care enough to figure this stuff out.

[Visionseeker]

It makes me laugh when both the Liberals and the Conservatives refer to the NDP and the Bloc as socialists and separatists. They both do it when the other guy is getting support and they are not, its hilarious.

In my experience, Liberals don't have a strong history of referring to the NDP and Bloc as socialists and separatists. As for recent uses of the terms, they strike me more as a sarcastic use of the Tories' labels to demonstrate the supposed hypocrisy on the part of all three of the Liberal's opponents. All in all, it's a witty little throw it back at everyone and it has shaped a minor narrative. But it will take much more than that to pull votes from all three parties (not to mention drawing from the greens).

It's going to be fascinating watching the next election unfold. It's certainly premature to make any honest prediction about party standings, but even if the Liberals fail to win even a minority, Iggy will likely be the only leader to keep his job for more than a year after the vote.

[punked]

In my experience, Liberals don't have a strong history of referring to the NDP and Bloc as socialists and separatists. As for recent uses of the terms, they strike me more as a sarcastic use of the Tories' labels to demonstrate the supposed hypocrisy on the part of all three of the Liberal's opponents. All in all, it's a witty little throw it back at everyone and it has shaped a minor narrative. But it will take much more than that to pull votes from all three parties (not to mention drawing from the greens).

It's going to be fascinating watching the next election unfold. It's certainly premature to make any honest prediction about party standings, but even if the Liberals fail to win even a minority, Iggy will likely be the only leader to keep his job for more than a year after the vote.

I am an NDPer I don't see as witty I see as an insult to the very voters Iggy has to win over. I am sure it plays well in Liberal circles but so did Dion and stealing money from Canadians. Not the way to win an election.

As for Iggy keeping his Job if this election does happen for another year he will be almost 64 given there wont be an election for a another 2 years I think he will be way to old to be running for PM after already losing so I think you are wrong. Iggy gets one kick unless the election comes soon.

[Visionseeker]

Not if they do it and still don't go against their core values. I am ok with the NDP voting for an EI bill that is why I vote NDP I agree with that. The difference is when the Liberals were supporting the Cons they were going against the values most think they stand for. Yep they voted for the budget but in that budget was an Omnibus bill for Bill C-10 elimination of the fight for pay equity in the work place. See that is where the NDP and Liberals are different I would be pretty mad at the NDP for voting for that although Liberals were fine with it. As long as the NDP is not voting against our core values I will support them, Liberals don't care enough to figure this stuff out.

It's one thing to stand for one's principles, it's entirely another to precipitate both financial and electoral suicide. The Liberals have been taking it the ribs elect orally for 4 years because they were organizationally imploding. Their collapse was caused by internal warfare that elevated personalities over principles and the retirement of too may of its stabilizing voices who might of help right the ship. A party on the downturn doesn't initiate elections if the can avoid it. The one thing we can say for certain is that Ignatieff's tough talk is a sign that he, at a minimum, no longer sees the party trending down.

As to the NDP sticking to principles, good for them. But you have to be a little naive to think that they're doing so wasn't facilitated by the knowledge that the Liberals were weak and unable to pull the trigger. EI reform is nothing but a Tory tactic to throw a lifeline to the NDP and an electoral hammer to the Bloc. While the EI proposals are an improvement on the status quo, you and I both know that they fall well short of what truly needs to be delivered.

Layton understands full well that he'll lose a good number of "borrowed" seats to the Liberals if an election were held today. His only hope is to stall long enough for polls to start worrying the Liberals. As for Duceppe, Harper has given the Bloc a strong campaign message to weaken Iggy's appeal at the eventual polls: "he voted against extending EI benefits, what man does that?"

Layton is in a squeeze. He needs the Liberals to become election shy yet the only way that can be accomplished is for polls to threaten an equal or worse showing for the Liberals than last fall. But Layton "rolling over" to prop-up Harper hurts him in one of two ways: a) provides an opening to the Liberals or, b_) improves Tory numbers, embolden them further.

I have observed politics for too long to be seduced by value voters. Yes, values play a role, but the deciding factor is what the public accepts as possible. An NDP government is not presently a legitimate possibility among a strong majority of Canadians. By default, the looming battle will be between the Liberals and the Tories. Under Dion, a Liberal government was not deemed possible, under Ignatieff, it takes on a distinct flavour of possibility and maybe even desirability.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Visionseeker

[punked]

Like it or not a progressive can vote for extending EI, a progressive can't vote for the killing of all the steps forward we have taken on pay equity. Yep Layton didn't support the budget (It had bill C-10 attacked too it) and he was right not too, but he is supporting this and he is right too. The Liberals think the public are dumb somehow will see this as Layton cuddling up to Harper, however Harper didn't slip the poison pill in this that he did that terrible budget. So now the Liberals have the track record of supporting the Tories on their worst legislation while voting against their best. I mean honestly if they want progressive leaning votes that is not the way to do it.

The other problem here is the Liberals cried all summer about EI reform then when it came up they voted against it.

[Visionseeker]

I am an NDPer I don't see as witty I see as an insult to the very voters Iggy has to win over. I am sure it plays well in Liberal circles but so did Dion and stealing money from Canadians. Not the way to win an election.

As for Iggy keeping his Job if this election does happen for another year he will be almost 64 given there wont be an election for a another 2 years I think he will be way to old to be running for PM after already losing so I think you are wrong. Iggy gets one kick unless the election comes soon.

Forgive me if I read too much into your post, but I take it as an admission that you are a committed NDP partisan; in other words, your mind is made-up, nothing will change it.

You're not the voter such flinging appeals to. Rather, soft NDP votes that dislike the supposed hypocrisy or even committed socialists who would put their dislike of the Tories ahead of their party are the targets. It's called chipping: pulling support from a competing party or, at a minimum, reducing their participation rate through demoralization.

You are insulted, I understand that. But some prior or apt supporters of the NDP might see it differently.

As for Dion stealing money from Canadians, I hope you have evidence to back-up such allegations. Slander is not a badge of honour.

As for Iggy keeping his Job if this election does happen for another year he will be almost 64 given there wont be an election for a another 2 years I think he will be way to old to be running for PM after already losing so I think you are wrong. Iggy gets one kick unless the election comes soon.

Hum, does the NDP support ageism as official policy, or is this just your personal opinion? In an age where nearly 1 in 5 Canadians and 1 in 4 of active voters are over 55 years of age, something tells me that age is a losing card to play in politics. But you are entitled to your opinion.

[punked]

Forgive me if I read too much into your post, but I take it as an admission that you are a committed NDP partisan; in other words, your mind is made-up, nothing will change it.

You're not the voter such flinging appeals to. Rather, soft NDP votes that dislike the supposed hypocrisy or even committed socialists who would put their dislike of the Tories ahead of their party are the targets. It's called chipping: pulling support from a competing party or, at a minimum, reducing their participation rate through demoralization.

You are insulted, I understand that. But some prior or apt supporters of the NDP might see it differently.

As for Dion stealing money from Canadians, I hope you have evidence to back-up such allegations. Slander is not a badge of honour.

Calling people who voted for their NDP MPs socialist does not play with them honestly. People get offended by stuff like that not that there is anything wrong with that. Personally while I carry my NDP card I am not a socialist I am a progressive moderate but I know many people who are socialist and they are not bad people and guess what? They are Canadians too. It is not a way to win the soft support. It is insulting to the voters and it wont pull the vote. The way to pull the soft support would be to put out policy they understand and like. However becuase the Liberals promised to have their policy out in June and it is now mid Sept and we see no sign of it I will chock it up too another Liberal lie. PS lieing is not a way to pull soft support either eh?

As for Dion he did play with in Liberal circle he didn't play well amongst the public and the stealing of money must have played well with some Liberals because they did it.

Hum, does the NDP support ageism as official policy, or is this just your personal opinion? In an age where nearly 1 in 5 Canadians and 1 in 4 of active voters are over 55 years of age, something tells me that age is a losing card to play in politics. But you are entitled to your opinion.

Like it or not at age 64 or 65 the age most retire fighting Harper most likely a new NDP leader, and Bloc leader just wont cut it. Look at John McCain.

[Visionseeker]

Like it or not a progressive can vote for extending EI, a progressive can't vote for the killing of all the steps forward we have taken on pay equity. Yep Layton didn't support the budget (It had bill C-10 attacked too it) and he was right not too, but he is supporting this and he is right too.

And good for him. He made an easy vote while knowing that it was safe to do so.

The Liberals think the public are dumb...

No, I suspect that they acknowledge that the persuadable public has a short memory, is unconcerned about the specific issue or can understand the gamesmanship that takes place under a minority. In other words, their platform will likely call for the overturning of this nefarious provision that they were forced into in order to give the Conservatives a chance to govern.

...somehow will see this as Layton cuddling up to Harper, however Harper didn't slip the poison pill in this that he did that terrible budget.

"Poison pill", interesting that you should see it that way. Don't you think the public does, or are they stupid?

So now the Liberals have the track record of supporting the Tories on their worst legislation while voting against their best. I mean honestly if they want progressive leaning votes that is not the way to do it.

Maybe EI reform is the best Tory legislation, but it's still bad.

The other problem here is the Liberals cried all summer about EI reform then when it came up they voted against it.

Yes, because it falls short of what the Liberals expect. Have you for a moment thought about the number of young workers, straddled with student debt and the trails of starting out on their own that won't be eligible? What's that? Been working only 6 years since finishing university? Sorry chum, Jack & Gilles & Steve (or rather the nasty law firm sounding: Harper, Duceppe and Layton) have decided that YOU SUCK! and are therefore ineligible for their generosity. What's that? You live in a region with high cyclical unemployment? YOU SUCK TOO!

You're making EI reform out like some kind of wonderfully progressive legislation that helps many Canadians in need; while it does little more than - by Tory calculations - give enough to keep the CONS in power.

The NDP may have voted 79 times against this government, but when it counted, they turned chicken. Spare me the drivel of the NDP being the progressive voice in this country: the only progressing they're concerned about is their own careers - like any politician.

[waldo]

In my experience, Liberals don't have a strong history of referring to the NDP and Bloc as socialists and separatists. As for recent uses of the terms, they strike me more as a sarcastic use of the Tories' labels to demonstrate the supposed hypocrisy on the part of all three of the Liberal's opponents. All in all, it's a witty little throw it back at everyone and it has shaped a minor narrative.

that's exactly what it is... a sarcastic jab at Harper's repeated ominous foreboding to the evils of aligning with "Socialists and Separatists" - unless, of course, it's actually Harper doing the aligning.

If I hear another Liberal use the words socialists and separatists I am going to puke.

Ignatieff offered up a throwback jab this week when asked for comment around this point... something to the effect that "there hasn't been a socialist in the NDP in 30 years", somewhat alluding to the silliness of the oft-stated socialist labeling.

[wyly]

There might be some modest improvement in Tory support in the short term for that very reason. But the longer the NDP and Bloc keep propping-up Harper's team, the more they run the risk of losing those in their own camps who really can't stand Harper. The longer Iggy gets to play Mr Principles, the more he's apt to win support from the left and federalist Quebeckers.

won't matter...the parties always try to frame the election around what they want to be the issues but public decides what the issues are and what is relevant and the public is very fickle and concerns change in an instant...then the various parties scramble to adapt to tell the public what they want to hear...