NDP support for Tories sign of broader strategy

[punked]

And good for him. He made an easy vote while knowing that it was safe to do so.

No, I suspect that they acknowledge that the persuadable public has a short memory, is unconcerned about the specific issue or can understand the gamesmanship that takes place under a minority. In other words, their platform will likely call for the overturning of this nefarious provision that they were forced into in order to give the Conservatives a chance to govern.

IF they didn't like bill C-10 why did they vote for the first and second reading of it before it became that poison pill in the budget? Nope the Liberal party has lost its values.

"Poison pill", interesting that you should see it that way. Don't you think the public does, or are they stupid?

No I think the Public is very smart which why I don't think when candidates bring these votes up it wont look good to the soft NDP supports that the Liberals supported a cut to womens fight for equal treatment, swipes at native rights, cuts to the arts, and more tax breaks for polluters. I don't assume the public will forget.

Maybe EI reform is the best Tory legislation, but it's still bad.

Yes EI reform is bad, run on that slogan. Could it be better? Yes it could it could be much better, do I believe the Liberals would make it better no I don't. Not after they were the ones who created the rules. Again we don't forget.

Yes, because it falls short of what the Liberals expect. Have you for a moment thought about the number of young workers, straddled with student debt and the trails of starting out on their own that won't be eligible? What's that? Been working only 6 years since finishing university? Sorry chum, Jack & Gilles & Steve (or rather the nasty law firm sounding: Harper, Duceppe and Layton) have decided that YOU SUCK! and are therefore ineligible for their generosity. What's that? You live in a region with high cyclical unemployment? YOU SUCK TOO!

You are right I would much rather to bring down the government so the Liberals can lose an election, Harper can have a year to do whatever he wants which includes nothing on EI reform and come out of it all 300,000,000 more in debt and with nothing to show for it. That would be great for workers. Thanks. Lets get this done right and help 200,000 Canadians then we can work on helping more becuase right now it is more then the Liberals are offering becuase they are not in a position to win.

You're making EI reform out like some kind of wonderfully progressive legislation that helps many Canadians in need; while it does little more than - by Tory calculations - give enough to keep the CONS in power.

I call helping 200,000 Canadians a good start the Liberals seem to be against that and that is wrong. Even if I wasn't a NDP member and I was a Liberal I would be sadden my party was not voting for this. I liked that the Liberals wanted to fast track this thing, and I hope they stick to that after it is done in committee and this bill gets some more teeth. That is if Liberals support the NDP amendments in committee and don't stall it in the Senate time will tell.

The NDP may have voted 79 times against this government, but when it counted, they turned chicken. Spare me the drivel of the NDP being the progressive voice in this country: the only progressing they're concerned about is their own careers - like any politician.

Yep the NDP did vote against the government 79 times most those times weren't when the government was offering legislation to those who have worked all their lives. The Liberals voted for the government 79 times. So how about we get off our high horse until the count is some what close ok?

[Visionseeker]

Calling people who voted for their NDP MPs socialist does not play with them honestly.

Tell that to Jack's new friend Steve.

People get offended by stuff like that not that there is anything wrong with that. Personally while I carry my NDP card I am not a socialist I am a progressive moderate but I know many people who are socialist and they are not bad people and guess what? They are Canadians too. It is not a way to win the soft support. It is insulting to the voters and it wont pull the vote.

I see one leader maligning socialists and another goading the same for their leader's willingness to collaborate with the maligner. No one in Liberal circles seem to be crapping on NDP supporters or suggesting that they're un-Canadian. Rather they seem to be suggesting that their leadership be held accountable.

The way to pull the soft support would be to put out policy they understand and like. However becuase the Liberals promised to have their policy out in June and it is now mid Sept and we see no sign of it I will chock it up too another Liberal lie. PS lieing is not a way to pull soft support either eh?

It's called keeping the powder dry. And in as much as it frustrates you or others, it will likely pay more dividends to roll it out on a campaign than it would to lay it out when the Tories can use the government's communication arm to counter it.

As for Dion he did play with in Liberal circle he didn't play well amongst the public and the stealing of money must have played well with some Liberals because they did it.

Perhaps you could re-write this in either official language so that I might make some sense of it.

Like it or not at age 64 or 65 the age most retire fighting Harper most likely a new NDP leader, and Bloc leader just wont cut it. Look at John McCain.

You think John McCain lost because of his age!? I'll hazard to guess that your political observations are a bit stunted at irrelevant.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Visionseeker

[Visionseeker]

Yep the NDP did vote against the government 79 times most those times weren't when the government was offering legislation to those who have worked all their lives. The Liberals voted for the government 79 times. So how about we get off our high horse until the count is some what close ok?

But what have you done for me lately?

Here's the thing: Layton has been on his high horse and supporting the Tories just knock him off. Now it's time for each leader to show their mettle. Yours will be found wanting.

Screwing young people has never been a progressive trait, and Jack cut them loose just to avoid an election.

[punked]

Tell that to Jack's new friend Steve.

Yah I don't think Steve will be getting any NDP voters either after crapping on them. See the NDP voters don't have to choose between Steve or Iggy becuase those voters have already decided a third option exists. Even the soft support doesn't have to choose between the two, so when Iggy craps on them, and when Harper craps on them they stick with the guy who actually says the things they agree with. This is not the way to win their support they aren't Liberal voters or Conservative voters they know their is a third option. Those tactics wont work.

I see one leader maligning socialists and another goading the same for their leader's willingness to collaborate with the maligner. No one in Liberal circles seem to be crapping on NDP supporters or suggesting that they're un-Canadian. Rather they seem to be suggesting that their leadership be held accountable.

Held accountable for what? Supporting something that has been a part of the parties platform for 70 years. Yah I'm in the party it isn't playing poorly amongst the supporters. Getting something on EI is a victory for the NDP who have been fighting to make it better for years. Like I said I don't see it as the end game but I see as a good start.

It's called keeping the powder dry. And in as much as it frustrates you or others, it will likely pay more dividends to roll it out on a campaign than it would to lay it out when the Tories can use the government's communication arm to counter it.

It doesn't frustrate me at all. I would love to see what they promise that I know they will never delver but I have already assumed they will dust off the red book to try and win progressives. Too bad we have already seen that story and know how it plays out, a bunch of left leaning promises that never happen. No wonder the NDP came back from 93 after the Liberals didn't even give us progressives who voted for them even crumbs. I mean honestly? Closing housing programs and cutting health care money I mean even Mulroney only had the balls to freeze that stuff.

Perhaps you could re-write this in either official language so that I might make some sense of it.

Left out a "well" but no matter. Point being even the Liberals are wrong sometimes Vision it would do you well to learn this. I know you guys are a big tent party (whatever that means) but if my party turned in the direction the Liberals have under Iggy I would burn the tent down on the way out.

You think John McCain lost because of his age!? I'll hazard to guess that your political observations are a bit stunted at irrelevant.

It didn't help.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/...lls-age-v-race/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/poll/2008/...ctions2008.race

Edited September 20, 2009 by punked

[punked]

But what have you done for me lately?

Here's the thing: Layton has been on his high horse and supporting the Tories just knock him off. Now it's time for each leader to show their mettle. Yours will be found wanting.

Screwing young people has never been a progressive trait, and Jack cut them loose just to avoid an election.

Ummmmm Jack just voted to extend EI that is what he did lately if I remember Iggy was against it.

Keep trying to dived the country that works so well. Young people shouldn't be mad that those who have paid into the system longer are getting something. They should be mad that the Liberals stole all the money out of the EI fund so now they can't also get the same sort of treatment. This isn't a young vs old thing, it is the unemployed vs a system the Liberal party created thing.

[Goat Boy©]

Just goes to show you how the Tories will do anything to grab onto power - even aligning themselves with socialists and separatists.

Since when is having your bill voted on by X party called 'aligning with?'

[Goat Boy©]

My guess is that Harper will take a number of opportunities to test this with several well placed kicks to the balls for the NDP in take it or leave it politics.

:lol:

Brilliant!

[Goat Boy©]

Not if they do it and still don't go against their core values. I am ok with the NDP voting for an EI bill that is why I vote NDP I agree with that. The difference is when the Liberals were supporting the Cons they were going against the values most think they stand for. Yep they voted for the budget but in that budget was an Omnibus bill for Bill C-10 elimination of the fight for pay equity in the work place. See that is where the NDP and Liberals are different I would be pretty mad at the NDP for voting for that although Liberals were fine with it. As long as the NDP is not voting against our core values I will support them, Liberals don't care enough to figure this stuff out.

I haven't read the bill, but news-media would tell you that he gave them nothing. Zero concessions.

[Molly]

It appears to me that the ship of state just righted itself.

The tactical situation meant the opposition couldn't fulfill its true role. With this groundshift-- the two potential governing parties again facing off-- now it can. All four parties now find themselves accountable for their actions from here on out.

This is a good outcome for Canada.

[Moonbox]

It appears to me that the ship of state just righted itself.

The tactical situation meant the opposition couldn't fulfill its true role. With this groundshift-- the two potential governing parties again facing off-- now it can. All four parties now find themselves accountable for their actions from here on out.

This is a good outcome for Canada.

It all goes down to polling. If the LPC takes a dive in the polls you'll see the NDP drop its support for the Cons and the Liberals will start supporting them instead.

This isn't about 'making parliament work'. It's about 4 political parties doing what's in their best interest to do.

[Shady]

I'd just like to officially thank the NDP for their support of the Harper Government and its agenda. However, I don't mean to downplay the continued Liberal support over the last several months. You've both been instrumental in keeping Mr. Harper our Prime Minister. Actually, I think we all owe a great debt of gratitude to both of them. And speaking as a strong Conservative. I can honestly say that we look forward to each of your support at various times over the coming months.

[punked]

I haven't read the bill, but news-media would tell you that he gave them nothing. Zero concessions.

I dont care about concession if the NDP walked away from helping 200,000 unemployed workers that have paid into the system for 7+ years I would leave the party. I still can't believe the Liberals walked away from it and voted against it. Support this bill.

Edited September 20, 2009 by punked

[Smallc]

if the NDP walked away from helping 200,000 unemployed workers that have paid into the system for 7+ years I would leave the party.

Just like you did when the NDP walked away from the stimulus that was designed to help an even larger number of Canadians. Yeah right.

[punked]

Just like you did when the NDP walked away from the stimulus that was designed to help an even larger number of Canadians. Yeah right.

You mean the stimulus that contained Bill C-10 which eliminated equal pay for equal work? That stimulus which was part of a Conservative Omnibus bill that hurt womens fight for equal rights. Yah I am pretty darn happy that didn't vote for that Small C although I am sure you are happy the Liberals voted for it.

[Smallc]

I don't really support any of the parties wholeheartedly right now. I would have a hard time voting Liberal or Conservative. As for the NDP, well, I consider them to be a joke after last week. I can't help but wonder what your position would be on the changes to EI of the NDP had voted against it.

[punked]

I don't really support any of the parties wholeheartedly right now. I would have a hard time voting Liberal or Conservative. As for the NDP, well, I consider them to be a joke after last week. I can't help but wonder what your position would be on the changes to EI of the NDP had voted against it.

It would be the party voted against an important first step in EI reform for no good reason and I would be pissed. My problem with all the other Harper legislation was that is had these small but terrible poison pills in them that other parties over looked. Attacks on women, on natives, on the arts. Things are important to making this country great. If this legislation had those things I would expect the NDP to vote against it as well.

[Smallc]

had these small but terrible poison pills in them that other parties over looked.

Except, the NDP overlooked them too. You see, they never even read the budget....and said they wouldn't vote for it. They were proud that they didn't voe for it....it seems now they (and you) are proud they voted with the government when the government gave you nothing that you asked for. I think there's a bit of hypocrisy going on here.

[nicky10013]

Except, the NDP overlooked them too. You see, they never even read the budget....and said they wouldn't vote for it. They were proud that they didn't voe for it....it seems now they (and you) are proud they voted with the government when the government gave you nothing that you asked for. I think there's a bit of hypocrisy going on here.

Of course its hypocrisy. Anyone who thinks that their leader isn't hypocritical in some way is just ridiculous.

As for all this pride in supporting the government, it's just saving face over the fact that its seeming more and more likely that this election is going to see a drop in support for the NDP as people vote strategically to potentially oust Harper. Layton is in a catch 22. Support the government and upset your base even further, or support the opposition and go into an election where you'll probably lose seats. Though clealy I'm biased, I would say that him not forcing an election right now might lead to worse results in the future. Force it now and get the distasteful results out of the way.

[punked]

Of course its hypocrisy. Anyone who thinks that their leader isn't hypocritical in some way is just ridiculous.

As for all this pride in supporting the government, it's just saving face over the fact that its seeming more and more likely that this election is going to see a drop in support for the NDP as people vote strategically to potentially oust Harper. Layton is in a catch 22. Support the government and upset your base even further, or support the opposition and go into an election where you'll probably lose seats. Though clealy I'm biased, I would say that him not forcing an election right now might lead to worse results in the future. Force it now and get the distasteful results out of the way.

Polls just don't show what amounts to hopeful Liberal wishing. The NDP haven't fell below 15% support in the last year and their numbers have risen in the last month as Liberals have fallen. Keep repeating Liberal talking points they are just falling on deft ears no one is listen to the Liberals "It is us or them" crap. Canadians know there are 4 parties they can vote for and 5 parties in one province sorry.

[nicky10013]

Polls just don't show what amounts to hopeful Liberal wishing. The NDP haven't fell below 15% support in the last year and their numbers have risen in the last month as Liberals have fallen. Keep repeating Liberal talking points they are just falling on deft ears no one is listen to the Liberals "It is us or them" crap. Canadians know there are 4 parties they can vote for and 5 parties in one province sorry.

If that was the way it actually was we'd be in the first weekend of a campaign right now. Happy Jack is as opportunist as they come. He's obviously seen the internals and hasn't liked what he's seen.

People seem to forget that the NDP brought in 19% of the vote in last year's election. Saying that they're hovering around 14% right now and won't lose any seats is kind of ridiculous, no?

[punked]

If that was the way it actually was we'd be in the first weekend of a campaign right now. Happy Jack is as opportunist as they come. He's obviously seen the internals and hasn't liked what he's seen.

People seem to forget that the NDP brought in 19% of the vote in last year's election. Saying that they're hovering around 14% right now and won't lose any seats is kind of ridiculous, no?

No we wouldn't there is no reason for the NDP to vote against a bill that extends EI coverage. The NDP aren't souly motivated by polls and money the way the Liberals are. The NDP don't think they are default party the way Liberals do. Stop thinking like a Liberal to understand the NDP's moves and start thinking like dipper. A great first step in the first to change EI the gutting the Liberals did to it in the 90s.

[Smallc]

No we wouldn't there is no reason for the NDP to vote against a bill that extends EI coverage.

Except that they've said over and over again that they don't support this government. They've voted against them 79 times. Now, when the pressure is on, they show their true colours.

[nicky10013]

No we wouldn't there is no reason for the NDP to vote against a bill that extends EI coverage. The NDP aren't souly motivated by polls and money the way the Liberals are. The NDP don't think they are default party the way Liberals do. Stop thinking like a Liberal to understand the NDP's moves and start thinking like dipper. A great first step in the first to change EI the gutting the Liberals did to it in the 90s.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Another great post, this time from the left.

This was enough motivation for Jack.

* Conservative 37.5% (+6.2)

* Liberal 33.4% (-0.4]

* NDP 14.8% (-3.9)

* BQ 9.7% (+0.5)

* Green 4.6% (-2.4)

* Undecided 24.6% (+8.9)

Honestly, you may be right though. Jack Layton may not be as motivated by polls as other parties are simply due to the fact that the NDP will never win government until there's a massive reorganisation of party ideology. He can stand on principle whenever he wants. Problem is this EI bill wasn't standing on principle. It was a watered down piece of garbage. There was a reason why the Liberals walked out of the talks, despite what Pierre Poilievre has to say. Saying they did it "to support EI reform" is just saving face at best.

Edited September 20, 2009 by nicky10013

[punked]

Except that they've said over and over again that they don't support this government. They've voted against them 79 times. Now, when the pressure is on, they show their true colours.

And they right to vote against them for the reasons I have given. Almost every vote had something in that went against the NDP's core values. It has nothing to do with pressure it has everything to do with what they were asked to vote for. I am surprised and a little bit shocked the Liberals voted against their values this much. However this bill goes right to what the NDP stands for, EI extensions have been in the policy book for a long long time. I don't see how people dont get this.

You are just repeating false Liberal talking points. That is all that is.

Edited September 20, 2009 by punked

[Smallc]

You support the NDP and you'll never stop, hypocrisy or not. Just admit it.