Why do Black men rape White women?

[CANADIEN]

Right...the concept is dehumanizing and only serves to further a social pathology. "Interracial" labels appeal to a certain segment of society for a variety of reasons, from "Mandingo Love" to outright bigotry in its most base form. Yes, it has utility, but we have better understanding and language for such discussion these days.

I, personnally, do not see the concept of the use of the word as dehuminazing, but that's from my own enocunter with the word. And I am sure aware of the negative use some make of the word.

If you have a better term to propose, what it is?

[bush_cheney2004]

I wonder if the term instituionalized is the best discriber here, and if the examples provided here all fit neatly into that description. Not that I would have a better term to suggest.

The term is meant to convey the notion of a widely accepted public or private behavior or expectation.

[bush_cheney2004]

I, personnally, do not see the concept of the use of the word as dehuminazing, but that's from my own enocunter with the word. And I am sure aware of the negative use some make of the word.

The term is dehumanizing because it is one dimensional and does not recognize the individual and/or other dymanics in play, even for a single sexual assault, let alone many other forms of human interaction. Hence my sarcastic quip like "Interracial hockey". It is a term that is devoid of much more context and detail.

If you have a better term to propose, what it is?

Can't help you there, as I believe that the very notion of "race" is a social construct, quickly dashed to the ground when somebody needs a new kidney.

[CANADIEN]

Because government facilitates such encounters with the best of intentions but sometimes alarming results

The racism then, is in the attitude of the people, not in the intent of government institution to facilitate contacts. Racism would be the deliberate intent to separate groups in order to confer an advantage to one of them.

Ior mocking Asian accents in comedy sketches.

I would argue there is a difference here. People reacting to someone mocking an accent know the intent is to mock a person or a group. Positive reaction to that is approval, at one level or another, of a stereotype. I don't find those things funny (almost all the time), because of how stereotypical it is.

When I buy rice, any coonotation association to the name plays no role in my decision.

Once again, I will admit that's because of my background and eperience. That being said, there is a Canada a brand of pea soup called "Habitant", a term historically used (often derogatively in English-speaking press of old) to described French-Canadians. As one of them, I rarely think of that when I buy it.

[CANADIEN]

The term is meant to convey the notion of a widely accepted public or private behavior or expectation.

I doubt that your example of Uncle Ben's and Aunt Jemima's fit the notion, then. Sure, the choice of those names appealed to stereotypes. But I doubt very much that's the basis for brand recognition nowadays.

[M.Dancer]

That being said, there is a Canada a brand of pea soup called "Habitant", a term historically used (often derogatively in English-speaking press of old) to described French-Canadians. As one of them, I rarely think of that when I buy it.

I Never put water in a Habitant soup...

[bush_cheney2004]

I doubt that your example of Uncle Ben's and Aunt Jemima's fit the notion, then. Sure, the choice of those names appealed to stereotypes. But I doubt very much that's the basis for brand recognition nowadays.

Take it up with Dancer.....as he volunteered those examples. Yet, they do persist.

[CANADIEN]

I Never put water in a Habitant soup...

Now doing that is something I would find insulting... as a canned pea soup purist.

[CANADIEN]

Take it up with Dancer.....as he volunteered those examples. Yet, they do persist.

I misread who was quoting whom, and I apologize.

And yes, stereotyping still exist to these in advertising. Lakota health products anyone?

[bush_cheney2004]

The racism then, is in the attitude of the people, not in the intent of government institution to facilitate contacts. Racism would be the deliberate intent to separate groups in order to confer an advantage to one of them.

But government does facilitate such things, through housing, education, quotas, "minority" contracting, etc. It is a second order problem stemming from original "racist" sin.

When I buy rice, any coonotation association to the name plays no role in my decision.

I suspect you may also use the "pot - calling - kettle - black" analogy, oblivious of the underlying (negative) "racial" connotations. Some Americans still use the term "Japped" in reference to the attack on Pearl Harbor. This may seem subtle and trivial, but some find such things very offensive.

[M.Dancer]

And yes, stereotyping still exist to these in advertising. Lakota health products anyone?

[CANADIEN]

But government does facilitate such things, through housing, education, quotas, "minority" contracting, etc. It is a second order problem stemming from original "racist" sin.

What are we talking about exactly here? quotas and "minority" hiring are indeed a form of systemic racism, not made less so by its aim of correcting past injustice.

But a government action with a purpose not related to racial or ethnic identity, or that brings different groups together is not to blame if people react in a bigoted or racist manner.

I suspect you may also use the "pot - calling - kettle - black" analogy, oblivious of the underlying (negative) "racial" connotations. Some Americans still use the term "Japped" in reference to the attack on Pearl Harbor. This may seem subtle and trivial, but some find such things very offensive.

I will not tell people what they should find offensive or not. But I feel we are stepping on what could be a slippery slope towards PC run amock. I would argue, and I am sure you will disagree, that the relevant connotion behind the use of certain expression is the one linked to the intent of the person using it.

That being said, there are cases where the expression and its usual use are so specific there can hardly be any misinterpretation as to why and how it's used. The term of the word "Japped" to describe the Pearl harbour attack is one key example.

[CANADIEN]

At the risk of being called a racist, I find his mocking of stereotypes funny.

[GostHacked]

Nice try. what I want is for the creditentials of people who come saying "I'm a doctor" to be evaluated. What is the school they graduated from? How good is it? Can they actually do the job? I know it is much more simplistic err I mean simplier to assume any doctor trained outside of the countries you decided are good enough cannot make a good doctor, but I know it is more logical to actually find out if they actually are good enough or not.

I could ask you if you to have our kids deal with a shortage of doctor, but I will let you have the monopoly on stupid questions.

Scrutinize their credentials to the freakin MAX.

Story time.

I had developed hyrdocele a couple years back. .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocele ... I went to a walk in clinic and the Veitnamese "doctor' examined my boys and asked me a couple questions. At first I did not understand him ..'how long have sex?' (and when I gave him a blank stare he said .. you know f*ck, f*cking while doing the motion. I reply, well it has been some time. His immediate response was 'oh that is just build up' 0.0 ?????? I told him that gets taken care off. He basically told me to masturbate to relive the pain. Here I am stripped waste down and with him holding my jewels..... and I was speachless. Once tht bit wore off, I told him I am definately going to get another doctor's advice. He almost seemed offended. A couple days later it started to get debilitating in pain (hard time walking ect) I went to the hospital and the Canadian doctor, a french dude told me it was build up yes .. but not that kind. The french speaking doctor also dropped his jaw when I told him my story with the other doctor. They did an ultrasound on my boys and quickly found the issue, and it is cleared up with anti-inflammitories.

So please check those people's credentials. Potentially, I could have been in a world of hurt if I had stuck with that Viet doctors advice.

This is what I want, and I have made it clear. The only reason why you believe this is lwoering our standards is because I "fail" to include "and don't even bother asking for an application form if you are a Muslim or Black".

We need modern doctors trained with modern medicine and modern equipment.

[bush_cheney2004]

What are we talking about exactly here? quotas and "minority" hiring are indeed a form of systemic racism, not made less so by its aim of correcting past injustice.

But a government action with a purpose not related to racial or ethnic identity, or that brings different groups together is not to blame if people react in a bigoted or racist manner.

But it is, because without such government actions, however well intentioned, can and does increase "racial" strife. For instance, there are still reverberations from Bill 101.

I will not tell people what they should find offensive or not. But I feel we are stepping on what could be a slippery slope towards PC run amock. I would argue, and I am sure you will disagree, that the relevant connotion behind the use of certain expression is the one linked to the intent of the person using it.

Not a problem for me, but a good source of ammunition for the PC crowd with a pointed agenda.

That being said, there are cases where the expression and its usual use are so specific there can hardly be any misinterpretation as to why and how it's used. The term of the word "Japped" to describe the Pearl harbour attack is one key example.

Following a series of shipboard race riots in the 1960's and early 70's, the US Navy developed "diversity training" curricula and objectives. I was a command instructor for the courses, and it was amazing just how much of this seemingly inconsequential behavior was already documented and categorized as negative stereotyping at best, or outright "racism" at worst. It got so crazy that sailors could no longer refer to O-ring lubricants as "Boy Butter".

[CANADIEN]

Scrutinize their credentials to the freakin MAX.

Story time.

I had developed hyrdocele a couple years back. .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocele ... I went to a walk in clinic and the Veitnamese "doctor' examined my boys and asked me a couple questions. At first I did not understand him ..'how long have sex?' (and when I gave him a blank stare he said .. you know f*ck, f*cking while doing the motion. I reply, well it has been some time. His immediate response was 'oh that is just build up' 0.0 ?????? I told him that gets taken care off. He basically told me to masturbate to relive the pain. Here I am stripped waste down and with him holding my jewels..... and I was speachless. Once tht bit wore off, I told him I am definately going to get another doctor's advice. He almost seemed offended. A couple days later it started to get debilitating in pain (hard time walking ect) I went to the hospital and the Canadian doctor, a french dude told me it was build up yes .. but not that kind. The french speaking doctor also dropped his jaw when I told him my story with the other doctor. They did an ultrasound on my boys and quickly found the issue, and it is cleared up with anti-inflammitories.

So please check those people's credentials. Potentially, I could have been in a world of hurt if I had stuck with that Viet doctors advice.

We need modern doctors trained with modern medicine and modern equipment.

No doubt about it. I should have added that, in addition to credentials, all foreign doctors should have to go through an examination of their medical knowledge. If they at least have knowledge equivalent to that of a student starting his/her internship, they're in for an internship period followed by the same tests that Canadian-trained doctors have to pass before obtaining their diploma. If they don't have that leevel of knowledge, the only way they'll see an operating room is as a janitor or a patient.

I am just waery of knee-jerk reactions based

Edited August 5, 2009 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

But it is, because without such government actions, however well intentioned, can and does increase "racial" strife. For instance, there are still reverberations from Bill 101.

Many dispositions of Bill 101 violates basic freedoms.

[M.Dancer]

It got so crazy that sailors could no longer refer to O-ring lubricants as "Boy Butter".

O thought he was saying joy butter...

[Argus]

Nice try. what I want is for the creditentials of people who come saying "I'm a doctor" to be evaluated.

There are thousands of universities in the world. We have no clue as to what the actual teaching expertise is of the people in most of them, or how could a job or with what equipment or books their students are educated. Unless you come from one of the few whose credentials are unquestioned, asessing your credentials is not a simple matter.

I would rather have people waiting to see a doctor than have an unqualified doctor performing brain surgery. We'd just wind up with more people like you.

Interesting, isn't it, considering that one quarter of immigrants to Quebec comes from North Africa

.

Not at all. I did point out the the primary requirement for immigration to Quebec is French. And Quebec accepts a far lower number of immigrants than TROC does.

I will admit, I just LOVE the way you pick and choose the values you can twist to fit your prejudice.

I think you just find it amusing that someone actually HAS values, since you long ago dismissed them as unimportant.

Talking to yourself again?

Ooo, there's that keen wit again!

Better trained immigration personel. More resources

So instead of spending a fortune on bringing in immigrants we don't need, we'll spent two fortunes on bringing in immigrants we don't need. You are the clever little man!

End to the family reunification (you come in, your spouse comes in, your minor children come in,

Congratulations. You've just created violent street gangs in Canada.

That is exactly how they came to be. We let in a whole passel of Jamaican single mothers who had been working as maids and nannies, and they brought in their children (often estranged) they'd left behind, and thus begat Jamaican crime gangs in Canada.

This is what I want, and I have made it clear. The only reason why you believe this is lwoering our standards is because I "fail" to include "and don't even bother asking for an application form if you are a Muslim or Black".

Well, excuse me for having high standards. I know you find such things difficult to understand.

As I have already said. You let in a few individuals, that's fine. When you start bringing them in by the hundreds of thousands, then you are bringing in their culture with them. The problem is not just a lack of attention to who we let in, ie, to their skills and language abilities, it is that we are letting in far too many immigrants, period.

[Argus]

Institutionalized racism is still very much a "wide spread" problem. It is far easier to recognize and deal with ignorant people on an individual level.

You mean like the institutionalized racism of the Republican Party?

[bush_cheney2004]

You mean like the institutionalized racism of the Republican Party?

Sure...why not?

[CANADIEN]

There are thousands of universities in the world. We have no clue as to what the actual teaching expertise is of the people in most of them, or how could a job or with what equipment or books their students are educated. Unless you come from one of the few whose credentials are unquestioned, asessing your credentials is not a simple matter.

Who said it was? Certainly not me.

I would rather have people waiting to see a doctor than have an unqualified doctor performing brain surgery.

Same here, and you know I am not arguing otherwise.

We'd just wind up with more people like you.

Trying to insult me?

I think you just find it amusing that someone actually HAS values, since you long ago dismissed them as unimportant.

You know very well that what I say we should look at the values of the individual would be immigrants. Strike one.

So instead of spending a fortune on bringing in immigrants we don't need, we'll spent two fortunes on bringing in immigrants we don't need.

I made it clear that we should have better and more resources so that we get the immigrants we need. Strike two.

Well, excuse me for having high standards. I know you find such things difficult to understand.

Less we forget. High standards cannot be achieved without bigotry. Strike three.

Edited August 5, 2009 by CANADIEN

[Oleg Bach]

As long as "high standards" are enforced by a status quo that fakes having standards and principles..nothing will be accomplished... most of our leaders in buisness and politics are racists - who said you had to be intelligent to gather wealth and power?

[benny]

As long as "high standards" are enforced by a status quo that fakes having standards and principles..nothing will be accomplished... most of our leaders in buisness and politics are racists - who said you had to be intelligent to gather wealth and power?

The immediate link in between politics and racism is that when people get out of their political apathy, it's always as radical right-wing racists.

[Michael Hardner]

I can't believe it, but I read (pretty much) this whole thread. I think this thread proves that statistics on race are provocative, at least.

Firstly, I don`t believe that reading reports like this, then calling those who post them, or support them `racist`is helpful at all. Racism comes from prejudice, which means ignoring facts and pre-judging people based on one`s own biases.

Let`s look at the facts here:

1. The study is based on telephone surveys of Americans. The cited `table 42` (from my math) bases its statistics on sexual assault on telephone interviews with perhaps 3 or 4 people by my count. That is why the result has an asterisk beside it. The sample is far too small to be meaningful.

2. The site in question selected statistics which made the black VS white crime statistics look as bad as possible. This wasn`t done accidentally - they clearly selected the worst stat they could find.

So this makes Argus` and others` assertions that `we only want to know the facts on crime` patently false. These sites select statistics that make blacks look bad and the only possible reason I can see is scapegoating.

I believe even Argus himself makes the mistake of jumping from correlation (crime vs race) to causation.

And again, I have posted this before on a number of occasions. I have also listed the cultural/sociological basis of why there is so much Black crime.

This is a fatal flaw in his argument. He goes from a fact based discussion (blacks commit proportionally more crimes) to personal assumptions (it`s because of such-and-such a reason). I may have missed it, and I hope I have, but I don`t think I saw a study that proved root causes.

The whole discussion of race and crime is obviously loaded with baggage. The two most significant posters on this topic here are listor and tawaskm, two posters that Argus doesn`t refer to that much.

Tawaskm indeed shows that we needn`t be afraid of the truth regarding race and crime, as long as we continue to ask `why` and `what can we do about it`

Listor hates blacks, as evidenced by his descriptions of them as ugly and so forth. There`s no point in being afraid of that fact, or calling him names, but it does colour - so to speak - his arguments top to bottom.

Argus doesn¨t really acknowledge their arguments much, because Listor argues from a personal bias and Tawaskm actually wants to help the situation rather than scapegoat.

I see no evidence of this happening. People question the veracity of these statistics, perhaps, but if the methodology used is scientifically improper then change it. But we can learn a lot about problems of communities and groups through such statistics, which is why we keep them for natives - for example.

If Argus indeed is interested in the truth, then he must be open to the logical end of where the truth takes us - a path to improve the situation. If it turns out, for example, that poverty is indeed the root cause of problems, will he be willing to look at improving our social programs or will that not be the path that open mindedness is supposed to take us to ?

Another objection I have is the use of race statistics for challenging the definition of 'hate crime'. If white people beat up a black person because they are black then that's a 'hate crime' by definition. Do blacks commit these types of crimes too ? Of course they do, but we know that. Why do we have to go tit-for-tit on this ?

Interracial crime is an emotionally laden issue, and one can't expect the popular press to reflect anything other than a gut-level emotional reaction to that. We can and do rise above the TV news level of dialogue on these boards, so we shouldn't, in my opinion, use such a volatile topic such as this to retaliate against emotionalites and stupidians in the popular press.

CANADIEN: The reason why the keeping of crime stats by race or ethnicity is controversial is that they will be used, even out of context, by bigoted people to demonize entire groups.

Argus:I see no evidence of this happening.

Argus - really ? What about Listor's posts ? Do you not think that he goes a little far in inserting his own biases and unsubstantiated opinions into his arguments ?

Edited August 6, 2009 by Michael Hardner