Muslim Honor Killing in Kingston

August1991 · July 24, 2009

Dec 6, 1989, Marc Lepine killed 14 women because they were women.

That's not a good example to support your case given Marc Gharbi's background.

None of these are honour killings.

Argus, you make a big deal about "honour killing" but what difference does itreally make? In the end, women get killed.

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In India, young brides get burned by their in-laws usually because teh dowry is not sufficient. In China, young girls are abandoned or aborted. In Muslim countries, daughters suffer honour killing. (This type of violence is common in many backward cultures, BTW, including Elizabethan England.)

I would argue that one measure of civilization is the degree to which women suffer violence, and the degree to which they are free.

It seems to me that, all things considered, women in western societies are freer and suffer less violence than in any other.

We do not defend Western Civilization enough.

What is intriguing in this case is the question of motive. Why was one of the father's wives killed along with the teenage girls?
...

According to reports, Shafia was also having a new house constructed.

Now imagine if Shafia feared deportation if it was found out he provided false information to settle in Canada. His eldest daughter had filed a complaint of child abuse with local authorities. Now imagine if that daughter (and other daughters) threatened to publicly denounce her father's duplicity with regard to the status of the murdered wife. Shafia may have feared he could be deported and lose all his assets which totaled at least $2M. His fear could very well have been shared by his surviving wife and eldest son, and he convinced them to join in his nefarious plan.

It was disclosed that the murders were planned. Money may well have been the determining motive in this case. If so, it points to the father as the mastermind behind the plot.

Yes, there was domestic abuse with cultural undertones in the Shafia household. Yet, I wonder. If Shafia had been a regular, hourly paid working stiff, would murder have come into the picture?

Capricorn, this is an interesting theory and you may well be right, or be on the right track. IME, family relations around the world have similar mechanics.

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Last point. I'm still trying to see a link between this case of Muslim domestic violence and the 19 fanatical Muslim idiots who flew those big planes into big buildings in 2001.

Edited July 24, 2009 by August1991

Mr.Canada · July 24, 2009

I just have one question. Why are letting these backward people into Canada in the first place?

They can do all the honor killing's they want in whatever country they happen to be from but once they start doing it in Canada I have a problem with it.

Do we have to wait until one of these Muslims kills a white women who he doesn't know and claims she shamed him in order for any action to occur?

lily · July 24, 2009

That's not a good example to support your case given Marc Gharbi's background.

It is if you remember I'm not attributing race or religion to the killings... the common factor is that it's women being killed, more often than not at the hands of men. Even worse.... most times it's a supposed loved one.

Argus, you make a big deal about "honour killing" but what difference does itreally make? In the end, women get killed.
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In India, young brides get burned by their in-laws usually because teh dowry is not sufficient. In China, young girls are abandoned or aborted. In Muslim countries, daughters suffer honour killing. (This type of violence is common in many backward cultures, BTW, including Elizabethan England.)

I would argue that one measure of civilization is the degree to which women suffer violence, and the degree to which they are free.

It seems to me that, all things considered, women in western societies are freer and suffer less violence than in any other.

We do not defend Western Civilization enough.

Exactly. It's not a Muslim thing, nor is it a ME thing. But don't kid yourself that women in western societies suffer less violence. It's different, less sensationalized, perhaps, but we definitely do suffer violence.

lily · July 24, 2009

Most of them aren't "backwards", are they?

Contrary to what you seem to believe, "honour killings" are rare in Canada.

Bonam · July 24, 2009

It is if you remember I'm not attributing race or religion to the killings... the common factor is that it's women being killed, more often than not at the hands of men. Even worse.... most times it's a supposed loved one.
Exactly. It's not a Muslim thing, nor is it a ME thing. But don't kid yourself that women in western societies suffer less violence. It's different, less sensationalized, perhaps, but we definitely do suffer violence.

If you want to make the claim that women in western societies suffer as much violence, not to mention restriction of their freedoms due to fear of violence, as do women in middle-eastern societies, you'd better be prepared to show some pretty convincing evidence.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Bonam

August1991 · July 24, 2009

It's not a Muslim thing, nor is it a ME thing. But don't kid yourself that women in western societies suffer less violence. It's different, less sensationalized, perhaps, but we definitely do suffer violence.

Lily, I am not saying that women (or men) live in utopia in western societies.

But western societies (North/South America, Western/Eastern Europe - to give very rough geography) are the most civilized on the planet. All things considered, women are the freest and safest in these societies.

I think we have every reason to defend and advance the basic principles of western civilization. We have no apologies to offer. The road to western civilization has been hard and painful.

lily · July 24, 2009

If you want to make the claim that women in western societies suffer as much violence, not to mention restriction of their freedoms due to fear of violence, as do women in middle-eastern societies, you'd better be prepared to show some pretty convincing evidence.

That isn't what I'm claiming. I'm simply saying that domestic violence is far from unheard-of here.

Whether women suffer equal violence here as there, I don't know about that. But spousal abuse happens far too often.

lily · July 24, 2009

Lily, I am not saying that women (or men) live in utopia in western societies.
But western societies (North/South America, Western/Eastern Europe - to give very rough geography) are the most civilized on the planet. All things considered, women are the freest and safest in these societies.

I think we have every reason to defend and advance the basic principles of western civilization. We have no apologies to offer. The road to western civilization has been hard and painful.

Sure we're freest and safest... but I still wouldn't wander around at night by myself.

Bonam · July 24, 2009

That isn't what I'm claiming. I'm simply saying that domestic violence is far from unheard-of here.
Whether women suffer equal violence here as there, I don't know about that. But spousal abuse happens far too often.

It is exactly what you were claiming:

Exactly. It's not a Muslim thing, nor is it a ME thing. But don't kid yourself that women in western societies suffer less violence.

It is good of you to retract this earlier statement. Of course women in western societies suffer less violence, and less fear of violence.

Any domestic violence is too much. But the rates of it in western civilization are clearly much lower than they are in middle-eastern ones. We should continue to maintain and improve our society in this area, reducing this type of violence as well as all other types of violence, rather than accepting and excusing newcomers who perceive that carrying out these kinds of acts is their duty.

lily · July 24, 2009

I'm not retracting my earlier statement, just acknowledging that it wasn't well presented.

Any domestic violence is too much. But the rates of it in western civilization are clearly much lower than they are in middle-eastern ones.

I would be interested in an actual comparison, not just anecdotes pulled from google.

I don't believe that there is less domestic violence in the west. I believe the numbers would probably be similar.

August1991 · July 24, 2009

Sure we're freest and safest... but I still wouldn't wander around at night by myself.

In Saudi Arabia or Iran, you wouldn't wander around in daytime - unless your brother or husband was beside you. And while you wandered, you'd have to cover most of your skin under black cloth, turning yourself into a UBO - unidentifiable black object - US army slang for a woman in the ME.

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My point is that Argus is wrong to see this as an "honour killing" and not as another horrific example of domestic violence. Lily, you are wrong to ignore the background of this case. Western women live freer and safer lives than women in Afghanistan, or even Afghan women living in Canada.

Then again, maybe I should do what Obama didn't do the other night. Let's discuss this case in general now but only specifically when we have all the facts.

Bonam · July 24, 2009

I would be interested in an actual comparison, not just anecdotes pulled from google.

Considering that such incidents are perfectly legal in many middle-eastern countries, and thus would not be reported or even talked about, I'm not sure if there are any good statistics readily available.

lily · July 24, 2009

In Saudi Arabia or Iran, you wouldn't wander around in daytime - unless your brother or husband was beside you. And while you wandered, you'd have to cover most of your skin under black cloth, turning yourself into a UBO - unidentifiable black object - US army slang for a woman in the ME.

I know that, and I find it repugnant. Although... there are days when I wouldn't mind covering myself from head to toe.

My point is that Argus is wrong to see this as an "honour killing" and not as another horrific example of domestic violence. Lily, you are wrong to ignore the background of this case. Western women live freer and safer lives than women in Afghanistan, or even Afghan women living in Canada.
Then again, maybe I should do what Obama didn't do the other night. Let's discuss this case in general now but only specifically when we have all the facts.

I'm never wrong. :angry:

I'm not ignoring the background. I see it as an excuse to kill some people they wanted out of their lives. Maybe wife #2 didn't want #1 and her kids around. Maybe dad didn't like one of the daughters going public about abuse she'd suffered... maybe he was afraid HE'D lose face because of his OWN actions, so he offed them before they could talk.

Maybe this is an honour killing, but so far, based on what I've read, it looks like plain old murder to me.

August1991 · July 24, 2009

I'm not ignoring the background. I see it as an excuse to kill some people they wanted out of their lives. Maybe wife #2 didn't want #1 and her kids around. Maybe dad didn't like one of the daughters going public about abuse she'd suffered... maybe he was afraid HE'D lose face because of his OWN actions, so he offed them before they could talk.
Maybe this is an honour killing, but so far, based on what I've read, it looks like plain old murder to me.

You are ignoring the background.

But first of all, I agree that "honour killing" is still murder. And since all "honour killings" involve the murder of family members, this is domestic violence by another name.

The background you ignore? A woman in Saudi Arabia cannot drive a car. A woman in Iran cannot drive a car with a man beside her - unless he is a family member. These four women died in a car.

Lily, you are too quick to criticize our western civilization - while ignoring or tacitly defending the elephant beside you.

Edited July 24, 2009 by August1991

benny · July 24, 2009

Maybe this is an honour killing, but so far, based on what I've read, it looks like plain old murder to me.

What would it take to see these four lost lives as four lives not lost in vain? It would require that westerners be able to understand how one can make the choice of a choice. Muslim women can be said freer than Western women because they are making this second-degree choice.

Edited July 24, 2009 by benny

Dave_ON · July 24, 2009

This is generally the way these arguments go. The Left adamantly opposes the collection of any crime statistics which would actually prove such a case, and then sneers at you and demands you produce the evidence to support what you believe through observation. Of course, if I suggested we start collecting crime statistics based on race and national origin you'd be outraged and oppose that, too.
As I said, if the Left did NOT in fact, believe that such people commit a greatly disproportionate amount of crime, particularly violent crime, they'd be in favour of collecting such statistics so that people like me would not think ill of our new Canadians. That they insist such statistics not be kept tends to support my belief, through observation of news reports, that they do, in fact, commit a greatly disproportionate amount of crime.

I suppose the point is you would think ill of them regardless of the facts. Cyclical logic is not logic at all. This is a not a matter of "The Left" denying you vindication. This is a matter of you being unable to support your claims in a tangible way that does not include the phrase "My friends and I think...".

I too can use cyclical logic to support my claims.

Observation # 1: All Oranges are Orange

Observation # 2: All Oranges are round objects

Conclusion: All orange round objects are oranges.

So because I've arrived at my conclusion based on decades of observation of the media and discussions with individuals rather than through the statistical studies which are not allowed to be kept this somehow equates to my having a preconceived notion? Sorry, that is not supported by logic.

Here in lies the issue with your entire argument. If it is so very obvious and observable why are you not able to produce, articles, facts, papers written by others to support your facts? Because you have discussed your preconceptions with others who happen to share them does not make them any more accurate. That is not a logical conclusion that is operating from preconceived notion and finding evidence that agrees with said notion and ignoring evidence to the contrary.

Easy? Hardly. It's easy enough to get a lot of news reports, but lists of people incarcerated or convicted of crimes are not laying around easily picked up. I suppose I could spend some hundreds of hours researching court and police records, and perhaps going through some kind of access to information application, but I'm guessing this thread would be long since dust before I came up with the information, and even if I did it would simply be shrugged off.

You could provide links to the articles that lead you to these conclusions. Surely something recently has brought this to your mind, one specific article that caught your eye. When I think back to the most recent murder case I can think of I'm reminded of the Torie Stafford case that happened in Woodstock On. Incidentally neither of the accused is an immigrant.

Unfortunately, one rarely gets well-researched and documented information by simply reciting a list one finds on Wikipedia.

In other words you didn't even look at the information. Further to that end at least Wikipedia has more sources and citations then "My friends and I think" to back them up. Heretofore that is the only evidence you have provided for us.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Dave_ON

August1991 · July 24, 2009

What would it take to see these four lost lives as four lives not lost in vain? It would require that westerners be able to understand how one can make the choice of a choice. Muslim women can be said freer than Western women because they are making this second-degree choice.

Benny, you'll have to make a better argument than that. You are making the error of Argus.

O.J. Simpson (a black guy) was acccused of killing his wife. Ross Thatcher (a white guy) was convicted of killing his wife.

Christian guys kill their wives too.

benny · July 24, 2009

Christian guys kill their wives too.

Christ is remembered because he has wished for his own murder.

lily · July 24, 2009

You are ignoring the background.
But first of all, I agree that "honour killing" is still murder. And since all "honour killings" involve the murder of family members, this is domestic violence by another name.

The background you ignore? A woman in Saudi Arabia cannot drive a car. A woman in Iran cannot drive a car with a man beside her - unless he is a family member. These four women died in a car.

Lily, you are too quick to criticize our western civilization - while ignoring or tacitly defending the elephant beside you.

I'm not ignoring the background... I'm waiting to see if it's relevant.

But all right. Saudi women can't drive cars, nor can a woman alone in Iran. This happened in Canada though. I looked at the article but didn't see any mention at all about whether any of these women had (or didn't have) a DL. Have you read that elsewhere? Or is this a strawman argument?

And for the record - my criticisms of our western civilization are perfectly valid.

Christ is remembered because he has wished for his own murder.

That is false.

benny · July 24, 2009

That is false.

It's not only true, it is the Truth.

capricorn · July 24, 2009

But all right. Saudi women can't drive cars, nor can a woman alone in Iran. This happened in Canada though. I looked at the article but didn't see any mention at all about whether any of these women had (or didn't have) a DL. Have you read that elsewhere? Or is this a strawman argument?

I read none of the women had a driver's licence. If you'd like a link let me know, I'll find it.

lily, I may be wrong, but it looks like you think the murdered daughters were his children by the first wife. She was unable to bear children which, supposedly, is the reason he took a second wife.

lily · July 24, 2009

It's not only true, it is the Truth.

Luke 22:42

lily · July 24, 2009

I read none of the women had a driver's licence. If you'd like a link let me know, I'll find it.
lily, I may be wrong, but it looks like you think the murdered daughters were his children by the first wife. She was unable to bear children which, supposedly, is the reason he took a second wife.

Thank you for the clarification. The article linked to in this topic does mention that... but the one in the other thread wasn't clear. Actually.... it was confusing the way they tried to explain who was who. Yes, I did think the woman was the mother. I now have to rethink my position somewhat, because that changes things.

If you can find anything about the DLs... yes, I'd like to see that too. Thanks.

benny · July 24, 2009

Luke 22:42

To stop their sacrifices, Muslims have only to know that Jesus, his father and the Spirit are one, not three.

Edited July 24, 2009 by benny

July 24, 2009

You all should really read the Qur'an no were in the Qur'an does it say that "honour killing" are ok, I can't remember it ever mentioning "honour killings" at all. The only time I can remember that the Qur'an says violence is ok is when the people are atheists and polytheists. Read about the People of the book Islamic divine law say to tolerate and give autonomy to the Christians and Jews. So stop blaming religion for this them using religion to allow them to kill is bullshit.