Iran Situation: Bush or Obama?

[JerrySeinfeld]

The current happenings in Iran are mostly due to an internal struggle for liberty and democracy, with foreign influence at a minimum. I think we could all accept that - at least based upon the information we have right now.

However, foreign relations/policy/influence always has some degree of impact. Just look at the recent US elections, where Bush's disliked foreign policy or Obama's promises, or even the (illegal) contributions from international donors helped elect Obama.

So I think we can also agree that outside forces have made some kind of contribution.

Here is a though for a Sunday morning conversation. It occurred to me that, as opposed to the usual polarization that occurs on this site between Bush and Obama, is it possible that BOTH Presideents have done things that have combined to contribute to the uprising in Iran?

We do know that Bush, before leaving office, funded a $400 million project aimed at usetting the existing regime.

We also know that, like it or not, Bush ousted a "supreme leader" in Iraq and created a peacful democracy after years of struggle and resistance - supported militarily by the Iranian Supreme Leadeer and his friend Mahmoud Ahmedinejad.

So Bush did what I have claimed his goal was all along: Smashed the illusion of permanence long held by the thug regimes in the region.

But his agressive style was such that it became an easy bogeyman and lightening rod as "the great satan" for thug candidates such as Ahmedinejad to point to as a rationale for their hardline approach and reason to support him.

He was the bad cop.

Then along comes Obama, the good cop. He "extends a hand". Then makes a conciliatory speech to the "muslim world".

And serendipitously, the Supreme Leader in Iran wants to ensure his puppet Ahmedinajad is "elected" so cheats the election and blesses Ahmedinejad's election as "divine".

Could it be that this combination of events and appraoches between the two US Presidents has worked to motivate the people on the ground in Iran?

Bush smashed the illusions, made real liberty seem possible, while Obama made it possible through his olive branch from "the west" to the Islamic people on the ground?

And is this the beginning of something bigger to sweep across the Mid East?

Discuss.

Edited June 21, 2009 by JerrySeinfeld

[Topaz]

Bush and other Presidents before him, were kinda , shot first ask questions later way of leading. I, for one, always think it better to talk and talk until there's no other way to handle situation. The last thing we should do is invade a country or throw bombs at innocence people. Obama is trying to earn trust without the world asnd if he keeps his WORD to those countries then maybe we can have peace again.

[Oleg Bach]

Bush and other Presidents before him, were kinda , shot first ask questions later way of leading. I, for one, always think it better to talk and talk until there's no other way to handle situation. The last thing we should do is invade a country or throw bombs at innocence people. Obama is trying to earn trust without the world asnd if he keeps his WORD to those countries then maybe we can have peace again.

Bush and I'm a dinner Job...were twins - twitish --- I believe that the Supreme Leader....loves twits - amtitious glory seeking twits are so easy to control.

[KrustyKidd]

Bush and other Presidents before him, were kinda , shot first ask questions later way of leading. I, for one, always think it better to talk and talk until there's no other way to handle situation. The last thing we should do is invade a country or throw bombs at innocence people. Obama is trying to earn trust without the world asnd if he keeps his WORD to those countries then maybe we can have peace again.

Twelve years of talk and talk and then the last thing was to invade and, in the process, free fifty million people. Obama will have a difficult time following up these acts of benevolent liberty but, with the troop increases and pledge to not actually leave Iraq, he will try.

[eyeball]

It occurred to me that, as opposed to the usual polarization that occurs on this site between Bush and Obama, is it possible that BOTH Presideents have done things that have combined to contribute to the uprising in Iran?

I think its just a hell of a lot more likely that most people in Iran like most human beings everywhere, just naturally don't hate freedom. Go figure.

As far as Bush goes I think he along with Cheney, Rumsfeld and Powell should be charged with crimes against humanity. Its pretty clear they're no friends of freedom at all.

[KrustyKidd]

As far as Bush goes I think he along with Cheney, Rumsfeld and Powell should be charged with crimes against humanity. Its pretty clear they're no friends of freedom at all.

Together they freed more than fifty million people. You think that being free to choose your destiny is a bad thing?

[DogOnPorch]

Together they freed more than fifty million people. You think that being free to choose your destiny is a bad thing?

To the Leftie hiptards, Bush & Crew can/could never be right. Ever, ever, ever. Conversely, anyone who was against them is a good-guy.

[KrustyKidd]

To the Leftie hiptards, Bush & Crew can/could never be right. Ever, ever, ever. Conversely, anyone who was against them is a good-guy.

Hey Dog, are you aware that every time a child is born in Afghanistan or Iraq, the fifty million number goes up?

I think that Bush and Regan will bet their own mountain, much like Mt Rushmore. He and Regan's features will adorn it. Possibly, it will be named 'Mt Liberty.'

[DogOnPorch]

Hey Dog, are you aware that every time a child is born in Afghanistan or Iraq, the fifty million number goes up?

I think that Bush and Regan will bet their own mountain, much like Mt Rushmore. He and Regan's features will adorn it. Possibly, it will be named 'Mt Liberty.'

Reagan was arguably one of America's best presidents. Same with Clinton on many levels. Carter, though...ugh. I wuz sure we wuz gonna get nuked.

[KrustyKidd]

Reagan was arguably one of America's best presidents. Same with Clinton on many levels. Carter, though...ugh. I wuz sure we wuz gonna get nuked.

World Freedom Day. It could be Bush's birthday, the day the US toppled Saddam or, rousted the Taliban. I say that we could call this holiday 'Bushmas.' Or, just put it in the middle of Ramadan somewhere to give Muslims something to really celebrate. (Have to watch the drinkinig and driving though during the holiday season.)

Edited June 21, 2009 by KrustyKidd

[dub]

Reagan was arguably one of America's best presidents. Same with Clinton on many levels. Carter, though...ugh. I wuz sure we wuz gonna get nuked.

what did reagan do to be one of america's best presidents, in your eyes?

[bush_cheney2004]

what did reagan do to be one of america's best presidents, in your eyes?

Ask the former Soviet Union.

[dub]

Ask the former Soviet Union.

you mean the one that ran out of money and collapsed?

[DogOnPorch]

you mean the one that ran out of money and collapsed?

Any wild guesses as to why the Soviet Union ran out of money and collaped?

[dub]

Any wild guesses as to why the Soviet Union ran out of money and collaped?

because reagan farted on them for several decades and that made them go bankrupt?

[DogOnPorch]

The MX missile system alone sunk their battleship. The Russians couldn't afford an H-Bomb for each possible shelter.

[jdobbin]

We also know that, like it or not, Bush ousted a "supreme leader" in Iraq and created a peacful democracy after years of struggle and resistance -

Iraq is not a peaceful democracy. There are still more violent political, sectarian and ethnic violence than there was before the invasion.

It remains to be seen what the outcome of Bush's intervention will be.

[jdobbin]

You think that being free to choose your destiny is a bad thing?

If they choose to fight each other in a civil war, perhaps not so good. Iraq still is on the cusp. The issue of the Kurds in the north and Shia and Sunnis in central Iraq remains tenuous.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Iraq is not a peaceful democracy. There are still more violent political, sectarian and ethnic violence than there was before the invasion.

It remains to be seen what the outcome of Bush's intervention will be.

We're witnessing one of those outcomes in Iran right now.

As for Iraq, sure there are still some issue in Iraq, but it's been largely a success. There isn't much doubting that at all.

They just had widespread largely peaceful elections, are now a free society and are no longer ruled by a murderous madman.

Next domino: Iran.

I called it: Bush, just like Reagan, often poo-pooed by the left as a war mongering stupid cowboy, has, just like Reagan, proven his backbone and proven he's smarter than the collective surrender-monkeys in San Francisco, New York, Europe and Canada.

Good Job W.

Edited June 22, 2009 by JerrySeinfeld

[August1991]

Bush smashed the illusions, made real liberty seem possible, while Obama made it possible through his olive branch from "the west" to the Islamic people on the ground?

And is this the beginning of something bigger to sweep across the Mid East?

Discuss.

The other night, I posted a response to this OP and then, with the press of a key and the close of a window, my response was lost in cyberspace. (Windoze should allow the undo of a closed window.)

Seinfeld, your OP is timely and good. I'll repost from memory.

-----

The Iranian State is an authoritarian regime. It is not a western democracy and we should not treat it like Japan or Denmark. In authoritarian/dictatorship states, as Nathan Sharansky has described, there are three types of people:

Sharansky divides the populace of a dictatorship into three classes: true believers of the regime, double-thinkers, and dissidents.

Amazon Comment

Double-thinkers are people who say that they supportthe regime but in their own mind (if not to their spouse) question what the regime says. Iran is a dictatorship and faced with this authoritarian regime, we are seeing the three types of people: believers, dissidents and double-thinkers. The double-thinkers are watching to see what happens.

(The comparison in Canada would be political correctness where many Canadians know the official line and quietly agree to it because objecting would just cause more problems. Few of us are dissidents willing to object openly.)

----

How should western countries (ie. the US) oppose authoritarian regimes such as Iran? First of all, IMHO, no appeasement. Churchill, Reagan and Bush Jnr were right. We (western democracies) should give authoritarian regimes no legitmacy. Our leaders should not meet the leaders of such regimes except under terms deferential to us. Authoritarian regimes only understand power as humiliation and we (democracies) should humiliate them.

In addition, we should constantly support dissidents (the incipient opposition forces) within authoritarian regimes. It is hard to be a dissident under an authoritarian regime and it helps to know that one is not alone. We in the West should openly support such people. Obama has wisely (and judiciiously) supported the opposition in Iran.

-----

With luck, and with time, the world will be rid of such places as North Korea and Burma, Iran, Cuba and Saudi Arabia. Women will be free to walk down a street with whomever they want, and say openly out loud for all to hear whatever they want.

Edited June 22, 2009 by August1991

[Oleg Bach]

I sense the time is near when goodness shall prevail - what I see in Iran is that the men that supposedly are god's representives on earth are in a state of great infidelity towards goodness - which is GOD --- they are godless ----------------BUT - what I see sparking in the people is the holy spirit - the mind and will of God....If these high and mighty tyrants want to play god --- they are going to have to cruxify every last person in Iran --- which like the mythical satan figure - grants victory and the reward for them is dust...and not a drop of water to quench the fire of utter lonelyness...These Mohlahs must be terrified to see God arrive in the hears and minds of the people ---you don't mess with God.

[Oleg Bach]

I sense the time is near when goodness shall prevail - what I see in Iran is that the men that supposedly are god's representives on earth are in a state of great infidelity towards goodness - which is GOD --- they are godless ----------------BUT - what I see sparking in the people is the holy spirit - the mind and will of God....If these high and mighty tyrants want to play god --- they are going to have to cruxify every last person in Iran --- which like the mythical satan figure - grants victory and the reward for them is dust...and not a drop of water to quench the fire of utter lonelyness...These Mohlahs must be terrified to see God arrive in the hears and minds of the people ---you don't mess with God.

Furthermore: The "supreme leader" is being removed by GOD.....it will take a bit of time but they are going back where they came from...and you know where that is - the centre of the sun.

[capricorn]

In addition, we should constantly support dissidents (the incipient opposition forces) within authoritarian regimes. It is hard to be a dissident under an authoritarian regime and it helps to know that one is not alone. We in the West should openly support such people.

When August posted this, I wondered what concrete action could be taken in a show of support to Iranian dissenters. CFRA, a local radio station in Ottawa, is presently conducting a program hosted by Lowell Green to take calls of encouragement from its audience. The program will be recorded and made available on the internet, i.e. Twitter. I hope these messages of support will be circulated in Iran.

If you want to listen live, here is the link to CFRA.

http://www.cfra.com/

[dub]

Iraq is not a peaceful democracy. There are still more violent political, sectarian and ethnic violence than there was before the invasion.

It remains to be seen what the outcome of Bush's intervention will be.

the outcome has left 150,000 people dead and many more whose lives have been ruined.

not to mention the situation for homosexuals and other minorities, who actually lived without fear during the saddam years but now they're being discriminated against.

[dub]

We're witnessing one of those outcomes in Iran right now.

Good Job W.

lol.

are you giving out free W. credits? i understand that for the first time in a decade, the rate of AIDS has decreased in many african countries. thanx W!

maybe someone should stop watching a little less foxnews and read a little more about the region and iran before making such nonsensical remarks.