Canada's immigration policy.

Machjo · May 18, 2009

In what direction do you think our immigration policy needs to move?

Personally, I'd like to see the following:

1. Require all applicants for immigration to pass a sufficiently rigorous English or French language test and cut all federal spending for all new citizens on the following language training programme:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/pub...ome/wel-22e.asp

2. maintain or raise all other personal requirements.

3. Eliminate all immigration quotas. Since overall standards would be raised, they would take over the purpose of quotas anyway. Besides, it's also a matter of jusice in that if one immigrant can get in, then so should any other who can meet the same or higher standards.None should be turned back just because of his number in the lineup.

Would such a policy increase or decrease the rate of immigration to Canada? I think it's hard to say, but however many come, the new personal competence standards would ensure that they'd be well equipped to integrate without being unilaterally dependent on the federal government for special services such as the one linked to above. In some respects, I suppose it could be equated with a shift to a moderately libertarian approach in that it grants more freedom to foreigners to come to Canada while at the same time making them responsible for preparing for their own integration into their destined local community before coming.

In what direction would you like to see Canada's immigration policy shift, if at all?

Oleg Bach · May 18, 2009

Close the door - don't let Americas overflow to come in either - we have just enough - a nice mix - and a culture that is BARELY manageable - any more and we will have chaos that we see begining to brew in the EU - and the American south western states - CLOSE THE DOOR AND LOCK IT> With global economy taking a nose dive - it is pure insanity to burden our selves with more ------------------------------either send a message to China and tell them to send every body here - or no one...if you get my drift - sooner or later you have to lock the door and not let any more neighours squat....more is not better...those that want more immigration are experimenting on this nation - they are NOT Canadians - they are Trotskite globalist lunitics..

Machjo · May 18, 2009

Close the door - don't let Americas overflow to come in either - we have just enough - a nice mix - and a culture that is BARELY manageable - any more and we will have chaos that we see begining to brew in the EU - and the American south western states - CLOSE THE DOOR AND LOCK IT> With global economy taking a nose dive - it is pure insanity to burden our selves with more ------------------------------either send a message to China and tell them to send every body here - or no one...if you get my drift - sooner or later you have to lock the door and not let any more neighours squat....more is not better...those that want more immigration are experimenting on this nation - they are NOT Canadians - they are Trotskite globalist lunitics..

Wow! So much for 'love thy neighbour as thyself'.

Wild Bill · May 18, 2009

Wow! So much for 'love thy neighbour as thyself'.

I don't think we should dismiss Oleg's view so quickly. To me, it sounded like he was simply being practical.

If you are in an overcrowded lifeboat you have to make some hard choices. Otherwise the boat sinks and everybody dies!

Oleg and I might disagree if we are truly at that state but he has a legitimate POV.

At least he's trying to frame the issue in such practical terms. We never seem to have any debate on whether changes in our national situation have affected our ability to support more or fewer numbers of immigrants. Right now is not 1954 when we had a huge demand for factory and construction jobs. We have vast numbers of people thrown out of work. Have we adjusted our immigration quotas? Where are these people supposed to get jobs to feed themselves and their families?

Are we even telling them the situation has changed so much before we allow them to come in? The papers have had a number of stories about the bitter disappointment many immigrants have suffered. Some have gone back or re-emmigrated to a different country.

"Loving your neighbour as yourself" doesn't guarantee you will have enough extra to feed him, or that he will be able to feed himself. To not bother to think of such things is simply cruel, even if unintended.

To my mind, Oleg is simply asking pertinent questions. He deserves a more practical response. If he's wrong, PROVE him wrong!

Borg · May 18, 2009

Oleg

Slap me! I agree with you and in fact I believe you do not go far enough.

We are in the mess we are today because of the damned liberals and their social experiments with Canada.

Unfortunately we have lost control due to the social re-enginnering of this country.

Not my quote - but read it here somewhere - and it is only a paraphrase - but close enough:

"Acceptance of diversity is directly related to the distance you live from it".

I have come to agree with this statement - and so have many more.

Time for Canada to be far more hard nosed about who and what we let in. And even more so as to who and what we let STAY after arrival.

It is going to be far more UNMANAGEABLE over the next few years of we do not watch our doors carefully.

Borg

Edited May 18, 2009 by Borg

Borg · May 18, 2009

Wow! So much for 'love thy neighbour as thyself'.

Screw that - a simpletons answer - if you do not like the response - then withdraw the question.

"Love thy neighbour" is a two way street and so far there have been huge instances of no returned love.

We could love them - but that new neighbour is now a pain in the ass and not worth the trouble of allowing into my country so I can support him / her.

Many bring in so much baggage it is disgusting - I am tired of adjusting for those who come in - when is it going to be the other way around?

Do not like the response? Tough tittie.

Borg

Jerry J. Fortin · May 18, 2009

We need more citizens and a expanded economy. How we get there is the problem at hand. I must say that raising the standards is a very problematic solution though. If there is nothing but doctors and layers coming in, then it would make them more employable than us, we would in effect be shooting ourselves in the foot.

Argus · May 18, 2009

We need more citizens and a expanded economy.

Please explain how we, as a people, are better off now with a population of 34 million than we were in 1970 with a population of 21 million.

Thank you.

Argus · May 18, 2009

In what direction do you think our immigration policy needs to move?

There are several aspects to my disapproval of current immigration.

Economic.

We are bringing in too many failed immigrants, and that includes the tens of thousands of largely phony refugees we allow in every year, few of whom have any education or job skills. Statistics show that the today's immigrants, contrary to their historical counterparts, are more likely to be on welfare, or to be in a dead end, low skill, low income job than Canadians (their counterparts twenty, thirty, forty years ago were all higher earners than Canadians). I see no reason whatever to be bringing in immigrants we have to support. And if anyone doubts the statistics they can merely go to any public housing project in an urban centre to see the sea of non-white faces and accents.

Cultural.

I grew up in a largely homogeneous community - Ottawa. I had no non-whites in my schools right up to college. I think, looking back, there was one or two Asians in college. That was it. In the space of thirty odd years, without ever once asking us if we wanted such a change, the inflow of other cultures and races has been such a flood that some cities like Vancouver and Toronto now have a majority of what we're now calling "visible minorities". Virtually all those minorities are immigrants or the offspring of them, and their disparate cultures have radically changed the cities in which Canadians are living - again, without anyone ever consulting us. Our traditional beliefs, cultures and values are being supplanted by people of other cultures - failed cultures, btw, whose countries can, in large measure, be dismissed as shitholes of violence and poverty due largely to the failure of those cultures. They have brought those cultures here, and we have encouraged them to retain them.

Crime.

Thirty odd years ago Canada had no street gangs to speak of. The idea of drive by shootings was, not to put too fine a point on it, a foreign concept. Nor could one imagine the idea of a "swarming" taking place, let alone repeatedly. With very rare exceptions (native gangs in the west) all such gangs and swarmings are ultimately related to immigration of large numbers of people from places with violent cultures. Far, far too much of our crime, especially violent crime, is being committed by people with non-white faces, and that means those crimes are due to immigration policy. That doesn't mean, of course, that white immigrants aren't commiting crime, too. The poster boy for them is one Elvir Pobric, a Bosnian double murderer to came to Canada over ten years ago after escaping from prison. He's been a legal immigrant since then, still can't speak English, and our ridiculous immigration system recently set him free.

What to do.

Stringent language requirements to increase the chance of successful integration and economic success.

Focus immigration on cultures with similar education, cultural values and sophistication as ours. And yes, I'm aware that means largely white countries, and so will draw accusations of racism, but I don't really care. That means Europeans first, South Americans second, Eastern Asians third, western Asian, middle east, African and Carribean last.

Much better communication and realistic assessment of the needs of various types of employees, and the requirements industry and business has in the assessment of the need for "skilled" workers.

Landed immigrant status should be extended to 10 years from the current 3, and deportation proceedings should be streamlined and rigidly enforced for failed immigrants, particularly those who break the law.

Machjo · May 18, 2009

I don't think we should dismiss Oleg's view so quickly. To me, it sounded like he was simply being practical.
If you are in an overcrowded lifeboat you have to make some hard choices. Otherwise the boat sinks and everybody dies!

Oleg and I might disagree if we are truly at that state but he has a legitimate POV.

At least he's trying to frame the issue in such practical terms. We never seem to have any debate on whether changes in our national situation have affected our ability to support more or fewer numbers of immigrants. Right now is not 1954 when we had a huge demand for factory and construction jobs. We have vast numbers of people thrown out of work. Have we adjusted our immigration quotas? Where are these people supposed to get jobs to feed themselves and their families?

Are we even telling them the situation has changed so much before we allow them to come in? The papers have had a number of stories about the bitter disappointment many immigrants have suffered. Some have gone back or re-emmigrated to a different country.

"Loving your neighbour as yourself" doesn't guarantee you will have enough extra to feed him, or that he will be able to feed himself. To not bother to think of such things is simply cruel, even if unintended.

To my mind, Oleg is simply asking pertinent questions. He deserves a more practical response. If he's wrong, PROVE him wrong!

Fine, I take my words back; he may have had a point.

However, there are other factors to consider. Owing to the rigorous standards already in place, which often include consideration of available personal funds, along with my proposal for even higher standards, immigrants would find it even more easy than the average Canadian to integrate in the job market, as is generally the case according to welfare statistics quoted in another thread. This does not necessarily mean, however, that they'll just 'come and take our jobs'. Yes, they'll be taking jobs they're most qualified for, but they themselves will also be paying taxes, and buying alot to reintegrate, such as houses, food, cooking supplies, clothes, etc. etc. etc. which can only help create new jobs. And as for the boat analogy, Canada is not the overcrowded country you make it out to be. We have plenty of land and plenty of resources. And if we maintain such standards for new immigrants, that would increase our supply of quality human resources too, helping to develop more industry, build new houses, and build a larger ta base to help Canada's less fortunate too!

And guess what! Immigrants volunteer and give to charitable organizations too. With a larger educated and thus likely better paid population, it also benefits charities and Canada's own poor too.

While I can appreciate that we're now in a recession, so is the rest of the world. We're not unique in that sense. But immigration can create ust as many jobs as it can take. So we'd at least break even there.

Machjo · May 18, 2009

Oleg
Slap me! I agree with you and in fact I believe you do not go far enough.

We are in the mess we are today because of the damned liberals and their social experiments with Canada.

Unfortunately we have lost control due to the social re-enginnering of this country.

Not my quote - but read it here somewhere - and it is only a paraphrase - but close enough:

"Acceptance of diversity is directly related to the distance you live from it".

I have come to agree with this statement - and so have many more.

Time for Canada to be far more hard nosed about who and what we let in. And even more so as to who and what we let STAY after arrival.

It is going to be far more UNMANAGEABLE over the next few years of we do not watch our doors carefully.

Borg

While I'd be in favour of making it more difficult for immigrants to come to Canada, not through quotas but through standards, I would also support making it easier for them, once in Canada, to get their papers. It's outright cruel to let them in easily and then make it hard for them to stay. They're humans too and once they live somewhere, they make friends and adjust. Also, to make it difficult for them once in Canada increases the risk of deceptive marriages of convenience, wchich hurt Canadians too after the divorce. I've seen a few lives shattered as a result of such marriages. So yes, make it harder for them to come, but easier for them to stay.

Machjo · May 18, 2009

We need more citizens and a expanded economy. How we get there is the problem at hand. I must say that raising the standards is a very problematic solution though. If there is nothing but doctors and layers coming in, then it would make them more employable than us, we would in effect be shooting ourselves in the foot.

Actually, it woud not be making them more employable than us; they already would be more employable. The difference would simply be that they would be the only ones who could come in for the most part. And since there would no longer be any quotas, it would also mean that doctores from around the world would be in competition with each other for the Canadian jobs, thus potentially helping to bring thei salaries down a little, and thus helping to make health care a little more affordable. Granted it would likely be but a small drop, but hey, every penny counts.

Machjo · May 18, 2009

We need more citizens and a expanded economy. How we get there is the problem at hand. I must say that raising the standards is a very problematic solution though. If there is nothing but doctors and layers coming in, then it would make them more employable than us, we would in effect be shooting ourselves in the foot.

Another point. Such higher standards would likely help to transform Canadians' perceptions of immigrants from that of welfare bums to people we'd want to emulate, thus helping to break down the barriers of prejudice in Canadian society.

Smallc · May 18, 2009

Such higher standards would likely help to transform Canadians' perceptions of immigrants

There is no collective Canadian perception of immigrants. I'm sure someone in Toronto doesn't feel the same as someone in rural Quebec.

Machjo · May 18, 2009

Please explain how we, as a people, are better off now with a population of 34 million than we were in 1970 with a population of 21 million.
Thank you.

Population expansion, be it from imigration or high birth rates, creates jobs. As the population was growing in the 1970's, that created jobs. Now that the population is no longer growing, there is no more growing demand for goods and services.

To be fair, there are ways of handling a no-growth population. As long as the population doesn't shrink, though economic booms might be hard to come by, we can at least ensure moderate stability in the markets.

But if we're looking for actual job growth, then we want an expanding population to increase market demands. In that sense, now would be the right time to increase immigration.

Machjo · May 18, 2009

There are several aspects to my disapproval of current immigration.
Economic.

We are bringing in too many failed immigrants, and that includes the tens of thousands of largely phony refugees we allow in every year, few of whom have any education or job skills. Statistics show that the today's immigrants, contrary to their historical counterparts, are more likely to be on welfare, or to be in a dead end, low skill, low income job than Canadians (their counterparts twenty, thirty, forty years ago were all higher earners than Canadians). I see no reason whatever to be bringing in immigrants we have to support. And if anyone doubts the statistics they can merely go to any public housing project in an urban centre to see the sea of non-white faces and accents.

1. You seem in your last sentence to be equating ability to integrate with race.

2. Higher immigration standards would solve the problem you're referring to here, not by screening for race, but for education qualifications, experience, etc.

Cultural.
I grew up in a largely homogeneous community - Ottawa. I had no non-whites in my schools right up to college. I think, looking back, there was one or two Asians in college. That was it. In the space of thirty odd years, without ever once asking us if we wanted such a change, the inflow of other cultures and races has been such a flood that some cities like Vancouver and Toronto now have a majority of what we're now calling "visible minorities". Virtually all those minorities are immigrants or the offspring of them, and their disparate cultures have radically changed the cities in which Canadians are living - again, without anyone ever consulting us. Our traditional beliefs, cultures and values are being supplanted by people of other cultures - failed cultures, btw, whose countries can, in large measure, be dismissed as shitholes of violence and poverty due largely to the failure of those cultures. They have brought those cultures here, and we have encouraged them to retain them.

Are you sure we live in the same Ottawa? I was born in Ottawa, and have been exposed to diversity from childhood. My mother is French Canadian tracing her roots back to New France 300 years ago, and before that to Angou, France. My father is Irish Canadian with Canadian aboriginal blood. His mother is Austrian. My mother is Catholic, my father Anglican, and when I'd gone to Catholic elementary school, there were black kids there with me. All the time I'd lived in Ottawa, I was surrounded by diversity. Even in history class, we'd learnt about how our continent's cultures have been in a constant state of flux for a number of centuries aready. Even before we'd arrived, what is now Canada spoke at least 64 different languages and practiced various forms of spirituality. The French came in and added French and the Catholic Faith and some protestantism. The British came in and added English and Protestantism. French and English grew for a long time. Owing to our low birth rates, we're now seeing new immigrants coming in. So in effect, our cultures have been in a constant state of flux for well over 3 centuries already. Add to that that the presence of libraries have played a role too. In 20th history lessons, when studying aobut Israel in high school, we'd learnt a little about Islam. It fascinated me so much that I'd gone to the school library to read the Qur'an.

As far as I know, there is only one Ottawa in Canada. I there another I wasn't aware of? Or is your computer equipped to read brail?

Crime.
Thirty odd years ago Canada had no street gangs to speak of. The idea of drive by shootings was, not to put too fine a point on it, a foreign concept. Nor could one imagine the idea of a "swarming" taking place, let alone repeatedly. With very rare exceptions (native gangs in the west) all such gangs and swarmings are ultimately related to immigration of large numbers of people from places with violent cultures. Far, far too much of our crime, especially violent crime, is being committed by people with non-white faces, and that means those crimes are due to immigration policy. That doesn't mean, of course, that white immigrants aren't commiting crime, too. The poster boy for them is one Elvir Pobric, a Bosnian double murderer to came to Canada over ten years ago after escaping from prison. He's been a legal immigrant since then, still can't speak English, and our ridiculous immigration system recently set him free.

But at least we've since gotten rid of the infamous residential schools

What to do.
Stringent language requirements to increase the chance of successful integration and economic success.

Focus immigration on cultures with similar education, cultural values and sophistication as ours. And yes, I'm aware that means largely white countries, and so will draw accusations of racism, but I don't really care. That means Europeans first, South Americans second, Eastern Asians third, western Asian, middle east, African and Carribean last.

Much better communication and realistic assessment of the needs of various types of employees, and the requirements industry and business has in the assessment of the need for "skilled" workers.

Landed immigrant status should be extended to 10 years from the current 3, and deportation proceedings should be streamlined and rigidly enforced for failed immigrants, particularly those who break the law.

You are aware, aren't you, that Obama is black?

Machjo · May 18, 2009

There is no collective Canadian perception of immigrants. I'm sure someone in Toronto doesn't feel the same as someone in rural Quebec.

I agree. I was referring to overall perceptions.

Smallc · May 18, 2009

I agree. I was referring to overall perceptions.

In reality, I don't think that overall perceptions are that bad. It is worse in rural areas and I don't think that any level of stricter standards will change that as many of the current perception problems are based in ignorance.

Machjo · May 18, 2009

In reality, I don't think that overall perceptions are that bad. It is worse in rural areas and I don't think that any level of stricter standards will change that as many of the current perception problems are based in ignorance.

I agree. However, if a racist sees even just one non-white person on welfare, immediately he stereotypes the whole bunch. By raising standards, we'd likely expose him to more non-whites being doctors, scientists, etc than anything else, which would, we hope, at least change the opinions of more moderate racists. But I agree that there is not much we can do for hard-core racists other than try to educate.

CANADIEN · May 18, 2009

Economic.
We are bringing in too many failed immigrants, and that includes the tens of thousands of largely phony refugees we allow in every year, few of whom have any education or job skills. Statistics show that the today's immigrants, contrary to their historical counterparts, are more likely to be on welfare, or to be in a dead end, low skill, low income job than Canadians (their counterparts twenty, thirty, forty years ago were all higher earners than Canadians). I see no reason whatever to be bringing in immigrants we have to support. And if anyone doubts the statistics they can merely go to any public housing project in an urban centre to see the sea of non-white faces and accents.

In a time of hardship, we should limit the number of immigrants. At any time, who we take should be dictted by our economic needs.

BTW, if unskilled labourers came in from Manchaster, and they had no jobs, they would end up in housing projects too.

Cultural.
I grew up in a largely homogeneous community - Ottawa. I had no non-whites in my schools right up to college. I think, looking back, there was one or two Asians in college. That was it.

Same here. And guess what, I don't believe for one second that I would have grown up that much differently if that had not been the case. Nor do i believe for one second that my life would be that different now if I wasn't living across the street from a non-white immigrant family and two blocks from a mosque.

In the space of thirty odd years, without ever once asking us if we wanted such a change, the inflow of other cultures and races has been such a flood that some cities like Vancouver and Toronto now have a majority of what we're now calling "visible minorities".

So what. And last time I checked, if you don't like the government policies, vote against it or form your own party.

Virtually all those minorities are immigrants or the offspring of them, and their disparate cultures have radically changed the cities in which Canadians are living - again, without anyone ever consulting us. Our traditional beliefs, cultures and values are being supplanted by people of other cultures

Bizarre, i still have the same culture, still have the same beliefs, still have the same values. Actually, contact with other cultures have given me a better understand and appreciation of my own.

Crime.
Thirty odd years ago Canada had no street gangs to speak of. The idea of drive by shootings was, not to put too fine a point on it, a foreign concept. Nor could one imagine the idea of a "swarming" taking place, let alone repeatedly. With very rare exceptions (native gangs in the west) all such gangs and swarmings are ultimately related to immigration of large numbers of people from places with violent cultures. Far, far too much of our crime, especially violent crime, is being committed by people with non-white faces, and that means those crimes are due to immigration policy. That doesn't mean, of course, that white immigrants aren't commiting crime, too. The poster boy for them is one Elvir Pobric, a Bosnian double murderer to came to Canada over ten years ago after escaping from prison. He's been a legal immigrant since then, still can't speak English, and our ridiculous immigration system recently set him free.

And then we have the mostly white Hell's Angels.... The nature of crime has changed. The incidence of violent crime has not changed significantly.

We ought to keep foreign criminals out of the country. Some though will use this as an excuse to keep people out of the country even when they have not committed any crime, because of where they're from. Shame.

What to do.
Stringent language requirements to increase the chance of successful integration and economic success.

Language requirements appropriate for the jobs the immigrant is coming here to do, Fluency in English or French as a condition to obtain citizenship.

Focus immigration on cultures with similar education, cultural values and sophistication as ours. And yes, I'm aware that means largely white countries, and so will draw accusations of racism, but I don't really care. That means Europeans first, South Americans second, Eastern Asians third, western Asian, middle east, African and Carribean last.

Focus immigration on the economic needs of the country. Basic criteria: you have not committed crimes, you have a skill and knowledge that is needed, there is a reasonable chance there will be a job.. You know enough English or French to do it. You will abide by the laws of this country. Where you're from, the colour of your skin, your personal beliefs, your religion are your own business, and will not be a barrier.

Much better communication and realistic assessment of the needs of various types of employees, and the requirements industry and business has in the assessment of the need for "skilled" workers.

With a better system for assessing skills and education.

Landed immigrant status should be extended to 10 years from the current 3, and deportation proceedings should be streamlined and rigidly enforced for failed immigrants, particularly those who break the law.

Seven years

Plus...

No family reunification program. You come with your spouse, and your minor children. You get a spouse, you can bring her. The other family members can visit, then go home after the vacation.

Streamlined processes. It should not take years to know if you meet the criteria.

Streamlined refugee processes. You come here as a refugee claimant, we'll give you a ankle bracelet, meal voucher for a week, a temporary work permit for six months. We will make sure you have a fair hearing, and possibility for one appeal during that time. You don't meet the criteria to qualify as a refugee, here's the door.

Machjo · May 18, 2009

I do agree, Canadien, with the idea that once in Canada, you should be able to get your papers quickly. People are people, not cattle, and need to get on with their lives.

CANADIEN · May 18, 2009

I do agree, Canadien, with the idea that once in Canada, you should be able to get your papers quickly. People are people, not cattle, and need to get on with their lives.

I was mostly talking about the wait to be allowed in.

Machjo · May 18, 2009

I was mostly talking about the wait to be allowed in.

You mean before entering Canada?

Before entering Canada, I think there really should be no wait. It shold be as simple as meeting certain standards. You prove you mee the standards through standardized tests or other means, and if you paee, you're allowed in. If not, then come back in a year and take the test again.

Of course in some cases it might have nothing to do with tests. For ciminal records, they'd need info from their local police. Or for finances, a bank statement, etc.

While I'm all for standards, it ought to be straightforward. I'm fine with having high standards before entering Canada. But once in, they should be able to get their documents quickly enough in my opinion. It's not fair to them to leave them hanging once they've met all the standards before entering.

bush_cheney2004 · May 18, 2009

....You are aware, aren't you, that Obama is black?

You are half right.

Leafless · May 18, 2009

I do agree, Canadien, with the idea that once in Canada, you should be able to get your papers quickly. People are people, not cattle, and need to get on with their lives.

I would sooner allow in cattle than the type of immigrants Canada is allowing in to-day.

Who says Canada has to grow to the extent they are claiming? We derive a lot of Canada's wealth from the sale of natural resources and not primarily from the manufacturing sector. Let's do with what we currently have. The hell with more ethnic immigration.

I thought 'green' was in. Smaller the better, less resources we use and the less pollution we produce.

I think mostly, immigration is all a conspiracy by corporate Canada in order to increase profits relating to all sectors of private industry and bleed every last cent from the pockets of Canadian tax payers relating to federal and provincial services supplied to new immigrants.

Our quality of life has been reduced enough by the many new immigrants and all the social problems many of them are causing including over taxing our existing housing and infrastructure including roadways.

It would be much cheaper in the long run for the hotel, restaurant, taxi and trucking industries (where immigrants are currently required) to pay proper wages to existing Canadians rather than transfer the problems immigration causes to Canadian society at large..