Canada's immigration policy.

[CANADIEN]

Ahm, it is undeniably true that corporate Canada has been a strong supporter of heavy immigration for many years. Not merely because it fills "unfillable jobs" but in large measure, because it drives down wages. The more people chasing a particular job, the less the employer has to pay to get employees. That's the basics of supply and demand. Low age, low skill jobs in particular have now been driven down so low, wage wise, that only immigrants will take them.

I have no doubt that immigration of unskilled workers serves the needs of employers. But a conspiracy? C'''''mon. Even from you I expect better.

[Machjo]

We have no requirement whatsoever, moral or ethical, to be "fair" to individual foreigners in how we decide on immigration criteria. There is only one standard we ought to be applying, and that is who would make the best immigrant from Canada's perspective, both economically and culturally. We have no obligation to be "fair" to individuals or nations in applying that criteria. If Poles make better immigrants than Jamaicans we should bring in Poles instead of Jamaicans. What do we owe Jamaica anyway?

We have no moral requirement to be fair? Now I've read it all.

So what if a Jamaican and a Pole both apply to immigrate to Canada. How would you determine which to choose?

I could see the following criteria:

1. National. We say Poles get priority, so if that Pole is scum but the Jamaican is a brain surgeon, we let the Pole in and send the Jamaican home.

2. Competence based. They present all relevant documents to us, bank statements, police checks, degrees, diplomas, certicficates, references, Canadian job offers or business partners, etc., and we give them a test to pass. If they meet our standards, we might accept both. If either fails, we send him home with an explanation of why his application has been rejected. It could be reasonable to charge for our consular services for this, but they still have the right to know why they were rejected and based on what objective criteria. Isn't that more in line with what Canada stands for than playing games of national or racial preference?

[Machjo]

Please don't confuse me with Mr. Lictor. To me race has nothing to do with intelligence. I meet idiots in all colours and have voted for many of them. Some mornings I'm not so swift myself. I make no value judgements when I refer to racial stock. My point was that if they are that educated they probably could do better in their home country, which likely is farther up the living standard list than Canada. The exception of course would be refugees, which are not likely to be highly educated, although of course some would be.

When you speak of production and demand you still seem to be ignoring the fact that our domestic demand is essentially "mice nuts" and could never support most primary industries AT ALL. The domestic auto market IN TOTAL is only 15% of Canadian auto factory production. With no exports none of the factories can survive. Importing immigrants to try to revive the car companies is like trying to hold back the tide.

I agree we should be concentrating on finished products. That was one of my main points!

As far as hoarding our resources, that's a dangerous game. It was depending too much on natural resources that helped get us into this mess! You see, that's what every 3rd world country relies on, their natural resources! There are lots of them willing to slash their price to earn foreign money, since they have nothing else to trade. For Canada to want to position itself as relying too heavily in this area shows a frightening lack of foresight.

When you suggest selling our resources at higher costs you're assuming that competition from those other countries would not be a problem. Trust me, it IS a problem!

Anyhow, I don't feel I deserved your cheap shot about being a racist at all. I spoke of immigrants. Who knows or cares what colour they are? If there are no jobs, there are no jobs!

Mention Goebbels again and I will invoke Godwin's Law.

Fine, if there was a misunderstanding, I apologize.

[Borg]

You mean people like you who make fun of certain provinces by misspelling their names?

They are not Canadian - and are proud to say so.

In fact they have a party dedicated to becoming something other than Canadian - therefore kebec can leave as well.

So you are correct in your assumption

You could join them if you truly wanted to - but then you would not benefit from all those wonderful social programs that pay your rent.

Borg

[Borg]

The Italian and Portugese communities became famous for producing workers, construction, among others.

The Jamaican community is most noteworthy for producing pimps, street gang members, armed robbers, and drug dealers - oh, and a lot of people who have no profession whatsoever, but simply collect welfare.

Sorry, I'm sure there are some very fine Jamaican people. But that it has a poor reputation for a reason.

Also noteworthy for extremely poor reputations in Canada: Haitians, Somalians, and Tamils

Interesting and accurate - but it will get you villified here amoung the lefties. Rather than realize the accuracy in your statement people will attack you.

As I stated before - there are many in Canada who do not support immigration from third world countries for a reason - but to say so only brings on a personal attack.

So - why would people not want immigration from a third world country? Address that issue. There are valid reasons.

Borg

Edited May 18, 2009 by Borg

[CANADIEN]

They are not Canadian - and are proud to say so.

In fact they have a party dedicated to becoming something other than Canadian - therefore kebec can leave as well.

So you are correct in your assumption

You could join them if you truly wanted to - but then you would not benefit from all those wonderful social programs that pay your rent.

Borg

He was talking about YOU.

And let's not be fooled here. You don't think any Frog is worthy enough to be a canadian, no matter what.

To bad for you most people in this country, including a majority of those in Quebec, have more brains than that.

[Argus]

I have no doubt that immigration of unskilled workers serves the needs of employers. But a conspiracy? C'''''mon. Even from you I expect better.

I did not suggest there was a conspiracy. Corporate Canada has been quite open in their push for heavy immigration. Although, of course, they have not hesitated to lie in order to achieve that end, including their claims about not being able to fill jobs. In many cases (the high tech industry is notorious for this) what that means is that they made a pretense of searching for a Canadian worker - at an abysmally low rate of pay - and then went to the government, whining that they couldn't find any workers and were desperate. The government then let them import workers, ie, Indians, at rock bottom wages.

[Argus]

We have no moral requirement to be fair? Now I've read it all.

In recruitment, certain institutions of which I'm aware, do not bother making any effort to recruit from certain universities. Is that fair? Who cares. They have determined that, statistically speaking, they have a higher chance of getting the kinds of workers they seek from other institutions, and so they focus their efforts there. I see nothing wrong with us doing the same, focusing our efforts on eastern Europe, for example, and making no effort whatsoever to bring in Jamaicans, Somalians, Haitians or Sri Lankans. As an example

So what if a Jamaican and a Pole both apply to immigrate to Canada. How would you determine which to choose?

The Jamaican community sprang up over our desire for cheap housekeepers and nannies. We brought over thousands and thousands of women for that purpose. Then someone suggested we had to be "fair" to them and let them apply for preferred immigration. They then brought over their often estranged offspring (few of them were married), and this began the street gang problem in eastern Canada. Virtually all Jamaican immigrants came over through the family reunification program; brothers, uncles, in-laws, nephews, grandchildren, etc. etc. etc.

[Machjo]

They are not Canadian - and are proud to say so.

In fact they have a party dedicated to becoming something other than Canadian - therefore kebec can leave as well.

So you are correct in your assumption

You could join them if you truly wanted to - but then you would not benefit from all those wonderful social programs that pay your rent.

Borg

You really do like to pigeonhole people, don't you. You do realise that about half, probaly a small majority, of Quebecers are not sovereigntists? Sorry, too complicated. All Canadians say eh, all British Columbians are loggers. All Albertans are cowboys. And of course all Eastern Canadians are fishermen, right

[Argus]

1. You seem in your last sentence to be equating ability to integrate with race.

No, I was pointing out that non-white in this context largely means "immigrant" and that the fact the public housing projects are filled with non-whites is an indication of the failure of the immigration system.

2. Higher immigration standards would solve the problem you're referring to here, not by screening for race, but for education qualifications, experience, etc.

Education is not necessarily a guarantor of success, as many immigrants have educational credentials which are given scant respect in Canada, and furthermore are of little value even with respect because the holders of those credentials can barely speak English. Nothing is more important in today's service economy than the ability to communicate, and immigrants, by and large, are fairly bad at that.

Are you sure we live in the same Ottawa? I was born in Ottawa, and have been exposed to diversity from childhood.

Are you seriously going to try to argue with me about my experiences as a youth? Don't be idiotic. Clearly you were born in a different time. The statistics are fairly clear in that Canada was fairly homogeneous prior to Trudeau liberalizing immigration in the seventies.

Even before we'd arrived, what is now Canada spoke at least 64 different languages and practiced various forms of spirituality.

Oh get real. In fact, Statistics Canada, in its census prior to the influx of immigrants in the seventies, recorded only various denominations of Christian, and Jews. Everyone else was lumped into "other", and it was as small number in that category.

You are aware, aren't you, that Obama is black?

Of more relevance to me is that almost all the street gang members in Toronto shooting innocent bystanders are also black

[Argus]

In a time of hardship, we should limit the number of immigrants. At any time, who we take should be dictted by our economic needs.

BTW, if unskilled labourers came in from Manchaster, and they had no jobs, they would end up in housing projects too.

Unquestionably. The fact so many in them now (and over the past twenty years) are non-white however, is an indication of the failures of immigration.

Same here. And guess what, I don't believe for one second that I would have grown up that much differently if that had not been the case.

No? I wonder. Schools, for example, were pretty clean and non-violent places back then. The only "violence" were the occasional schoolyard fights, and even those were extremely mild compared to today. There were no gangs, and everyone in a classroom was capable of understanding the teachers without repetitions. From what I understand, that is not the case now, with the teachers often having to spend a lot of extra time with the many students who have only a cursory grasp of English.

We ought to keep foreign criminals out of the country. Some though will use this as an excuse to keep people out of the country even when they have not committed any crime, because of where they're from. Shame.

A while back there was a big fuss about LG fridges bursting into flames. Now I'm sure that was only a minority of LG fridges, but you know, nobody I knew even considered buying an LG fridge then, no matter the price. Why take a chance when nobody else's fridges were bursting into flames? Why bring in immigrants from places like Somalia and Jamaica - or for that matter, other parts of the country where we know have a higher failure rate - so to speak - when we can just bring them in from more successful source countries instead?

Language requirements appropriate for the jobs the immigrant is coming here to do, Fluency in English or French as a condition to obtain citizenship.

I would suggest that "fluency" is rather far from the standards being employed in that regard.

Focus immigration on the economic needs of the country. Basic criteria: you have not committed crimes, you have a skill and knowledge that is needed, there is a reasonable chance there will be a job.. You know enough English or French to do it. You will abide by the laws of this country. Where you're from, the colour of your skin, your personal beliefs, your religion are your own business, and will not be a barrier

.

I do think religion should be a barrier. I don't think we should be bringing in any more Muslims into Canada. Their social beliefs are diametrically opposed to ours, and, because this is a religion, not merely a cultural thing, they are unlikely to change any time soon, nor their children, nor theirs. Why create this problem for ourselves? We owe them nothing. They are foreigners. We should take immigrants who fit in better.

Seven years

It used to be seven years. It was thought that in seven years, an immigrant could acclimate himself to Canada, and be more likely to have adopted, to a certain extent, Canada's value system. It was lowered to three years for no reason whatsoever but crass politics.

Instead it ought to have been raised in recognition of the fact that it takes longer for immigrants to blend into the mainstream now. The world is much smaller. They have satellite TV and constant communications with their homelands, and most of them return home frequently for visits, which reinforces their old values and loyalties. That didn't used to happen.

Streamlined refugee processes. You come here as a refugee claimant, we'll give you a ankle bracelet, meal voucher for a week, a temporary work permit for six months. We will make sure you have a fair hearing, and possibility for one appeal during that time. You don't meet the criteria to qualify as a refugee, here's the door.

The only way we can streamline the refugee determination system is to get rid of the lawyers. The Bertha Wilson decision destroyed the refugee determination system. It now takes YEARS of appeals to get rid of anyone, no matter how absurd their claim. We need to bring in a new one under the opt-out clause. Refugees should be held in custody, and should have a hearing within days, not six months.

[trooper]

Argus & licowhatever ... stop using the word "we" into everything you type.

use the word "I" instead because you are no more a Canadian than the other guy and no more a patriot than the other guy.

And more importantly, you seem more and more like an Albertan fundie nut to me who is xenophobic

To make my point across... You are a racist schmuck and the likes of you will never change.

You will always blame OTHER people for YOUR problems because you are not man enough to face them.

You will always thrive at OTHER people's failures because you cannot fathom your failure.

People like you are generally the ones who go on welfare and end up bashing others who go on it.

People like you are the ones who use as many loopholes as possible to pay as little taxes as possible or generally make peanuts and pay peanuts in taxes but talk as if they are paying the lions share and talk as if you are taking care of thousands of OTHER PEOPLE (read immigrants) with your money.

I have seen it way too many times. Hypocrisy is prevalent with your types.

Edited May 18, 2009 by trooper

[Machjo]

Just a point I'd like to make. Part of the reason some blacks can't find work is also owing to racism. I remember an ex-uncle in law who was turned down for a job. Later, when a friend went to check, the job was still available. The same uncle, whenever he drove his nice car wearing a baseball cap, would always be pulled over by the cops. He'd lost count how many times. One of my ex-brothers in law was regularly pulled over by one police officer until one day he addressed the office by name and asked for his id number so that he could talk to his boss. Only then did the officer stop harassing him. Another probthe in law was never disturbed by the police until he'd started to grow dreadlocks one day. After about a week, he gave up and went back to the old style because he was sick and tired of being pulled over by the police all the time. The first brother in law mentioned above once was told that an apartment was not available anymore, but when I'd checked, it sure was. All this in but one family. The uncle was a computer technician working for the government, and the brothers in law were all going to university. Go figure. So we have to take that factor into account too which can explain at least part of the problem you're describing there.

On another occasion, a Swedish tourist had mentioned to me that from her observations, she was treated more like a Canadian than native-born black Canadians were. So I was wondering, is it possible that to some degree the problems we see in some parts of Canada are partially caused by local attitudes and not the immigrant themselves?

And no, I'm not talking about crime, that's another matter, but rather that some educated blacks sometimes can't find work in some cities. Could be a reflection of the city, no? Here in Ottawa, I have a few black colleagues and they work just fine and speak English well.

[Machjo]

A comment was made above about dropping standards in education since children don't know the local language.

1. This is not nique to immigrants. When I was in French-medium elementary school in Victoria BC, a new pupil arrived from Quebec who could barely speak English. Now he could manage because it was a French-medim school. But imagine if he'd moved to a more remote town. It would have been the same as if he wre an immigrant.

2. As for immigrants not knowing English, that is not solved via racial seregation but rather immigration tests. After all, a Philipino is more likely to know English than a German. Yet according to what we're reading here, the Phillipino has the wrong skin colour so the German would be better.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Machjo

[wyly]

my 1st post ....surprising amount of ignorance and racism here, all sorts of claims of what was like in the ol'days before Trudeau and not a link anywhere to verify the ridiculous facts of how it was back then...

[capricorn]

my 1st post

Hello and welcome wyly.

not a link anywhere to verify the ridiculous facts

Get used to it. There's plenty of that throughout many of the threads and some of it can be downright entertaining.

[Oleg Bach]

Hello and welcome wyly.

Get used to it. There's plenty of that throughout many of the threads and some of it can be downright entertaining.

Hey - entertainment is what it's all about. Hopefully while we are having fun someone might on occassion come up with a solution or two on how to make things better in our wounderful land . The hard hitting hit and miss method does pay off - we are the ten thousand typing monkies you heard about..

[Smallc]

They are not Canadian - and are proud to say so.

You sir, are not a Canadian.

[Smallc]

You really do like to pigeonhole people, don't you. You do realize that about half, probably a small majority, of Quebecers are not sovereigntists?

Actually, I would say that a not insignificant number of the people classified as federalists and sovereigntists are in fact nationalists that care for Quebec first and Canada second. These people will want to do what they see is best for Quebec...and for the most part that means staying in Canada.

The sovereignty issue polls in the 30s right now and is on its way back down to the 25% it was at in 2000. I don't have the poll results that I'm thinking of at the time though, and I don't really have the time to look.

Anyway, I'm saying that most Quebecers either like Canada, are happy with Canada, or are comfortable with Canada, and because of that, Quebec will probably remain part of Canada long into the future.

[CANADIEN]

So - why would people not want immigration from a third world country? Address that issue. There are valid reasons.

Borg

I am still waiting to see them.

[CANADIEN]

A while back there was a big fuss about LG fridges bursting into flames. Now I'm sure that was only a minority of LG fridges, but you know, nobody I knew even considered buying an LG fridge then, no matter the price. Why take a chance when nobody else's fridges were bursting into flames? Why bring in immigrants from places like Somalia and Jamaica - or for that matter, other parts of the country where we know have a higher failure rate - so to speak - when we can just bring them in from more successful source countries instead?

I was under the mistaken impression we were talking about people here.

The only way we can streamline the refugee determination system is to get rid of the lawyers.

Legal representation is such a bad thing.

[lictor616]

It does not matter when getting a doctor, a basketball player, a hockey player, and someone who can speak Chinese. That's the point you refuse to grasp.

it matters when assessing the LIKELYHOOD of these groups churning out the type of people mentionned...

If you want great basketball players... recruit west africans...

If you want great accountants go for Northern Asiatics...

you'll have way better success rates.

[lictor616]

Are they aware of blood donations at the red cross? Maybe they don't know where to give it? I don't know. Yes, now that I think about it, it was mostly whites that I saw there last time (strange that, it's only now that I think about it; geesh, I really should try to pay more attention to my racial surroundings, eh ). On the other hand, in Victoria BC and in Montreal, it was quite common for immigrants to volunteer in various programmes that I was helping with, mainly helping new immigrant integrate, anti-racism education, and such. I'd also volunteered in literacy education, and there both volunteers and recipients were usually white. So clearly immigrants do volunteer, but maybe are simply not aware of other opportunities. Ah, but I also remember one Madagascarian woman who volunteered at the red cross in Ottawa, though not sure where. But you can't say that because they aren't in your particular field of volunteer work that they don't volunteer.

right right a likely excuse... just shut the hell up already with your malarkey..

[Borg]

He was talking about YOU.

And let's not be fooled here. You don't think any Frog is worthy enough to be a canadian, no matter what.

To bad for you most people in this country, including a majority of those in Quebec, have more brains than that.

Hmm .... you called them Frogs - not me. And you might be surprised at my family back ground.

And that is a very slim majority - so I am not alone - even though you do not like it.

Smallc castigates me in one post and immediately in the next post he verifies what I stated.

That is what is so great about you guys - you are idiots - so locked in your own special worlds that you do not realize how many people in Canada agree with me.

That is where you should be focusing your attentions - why do they agree with me? Perhaps they are tired of the cultural experiments and no longer have faith in the multi-culture experiment brought into Canada by that damned trudeau (piss on his grave stone) and his damned lib party.

This will never go away until those issues are addressed - and you do not - you simply pussy foot around them with limp dicks.

I will ask the question again - Why is it a large number of Canadians are against immigration from third world countries?

Here is one possible answer - "Real or perceived - and perception is often reality - the immigrant does not become Canadian at heart - instead they bring baggage and do their damndest to make the Canada we know into what they just left.

You might try the answer on for size - or create a new one.

Do not like the response? Perhaps it is the type of response the average Canadian needs - it is a tougher world out there today and it is not going to get better.

Borg

Edited May 19, 2009 by Borg

[CANADIEN]

Hmm .... you called them Frogs - not me. And you might be surprised at my family back ground.

It's actually a reflection of your prejudiced views about French-speaking Canadians.

That is what is so great about you guys - you are idiots

Coming from someone who cannot even speak the word Quebec right... you pot, me kettle.

you simply pussy foot around them with limp dicks.

And after this one, you talk about other people being idiots?

Here is one possible answer - "Real or perceived - and perception is often reality - the immigrant does not become Canadian at heart - instead they bring baggage and do their damndest to make the Canada we know into what they just left.

I know the answer. And that answer is wrong on more than one account. "Bringing their baggages"? You mean like past Irish, Polish, BRITISH immigrants? "making their damnest to make the Canada we know into what they just left?" Yeah right. Bizarre, I am in Toronto and somehow I have no problem knowing I am in Canada.

Feel free to hide your prejudice against the "but many people think the same as I am". Common sense and logic are not a popularity contest. And besides, a majority of Canadians once thought Jews had no place in this country, and more people that you think still think it. Should we treat their opinion as valuable?

Edited May 19, 2009 by CANADIEN