IDF the most 'moral' army in the world

[ironstone]

how much of this $7.4 that was pledged did the PA actually received in the 3 years?

even if they received all that was pledged to them, how does that compare to the over $100 billion that israel has received from the U.S.?

also, contrary to what you posted, do you now accept that israel uses most of the money they receive on "weapons"?

Geez,I'm still waiting for you to produce some figures to back up your claims.I guess you don't believe the Palestinians are one of the biggest(2nd biggest)recipients of foreign aid.

Israel no doubt uses some of the aid money to buy arms,and they also export arms as well,being a country with a top notch reputation in the arms industry.

I'm tired of this pointless jousting for now and I'm going to watch The O'Reilly Factor on Fox(CAUTION!YOU ARE ABOUT TO ENTER THE NO SPIN ZONE!)

If you decide to put down some ACTUAL NUMBERS let me know.

[DogOnPorch]

I'll join you...lol. Virtual beer is on me.

[dub]

Geez,I'm still waiting for you to produce some figures to back up your claims.I guess you don't believe the Palestinians are one of the biggest(2nd biggest)recipients of foreign aid.

Israel no doubt uses some of the aid money to buy arms,and they also export arms as well,being a country with a top notch reputation in the arms industry.

I'm tired of this pointless jousting for now and I'm going to watch The O'Reilly Factor on Fox(CAUTION!YOU ARE ABOUT TO ENTER THE NO SPIN ZONE!)

If you decide to put down some ACTUAL NUMBERS let me know.

okay. lets start with the US aid to israel. scroll down to "meeting israel's special needs" where it talks about the aid received since the 70's.

as far as aid that goes to palestinians, what you quoted was $7.4billion pledged. i'm still waiting for you to give me actual numbers that the palestinians have received. the PA has never received a steady guaranteed stream of aid like israel has. the data that is available shows that they received $353 million in 2004 and $363 million in 2005 from various countries including the U.S.

if we compare that to what israel receives in average per year from U.S., which is over $3billion, ($3,000,000,000) and what the PA received in 2005 ($363,000,000), again, there is no doubt that the PA has received a fraction of what israel receives in aid.

i'm glad that you were able to learn something today. i just hope you don't post misinformation like you did previously.

[BC_chick]

Indeed the T-Shirts are offensive. As stated earlier, there are T-Shirts available in Canada that could be called just as offensive. Does it represent the entire Israeli nation? Doubt it.

No, I agree that the t-shirts do not represent the Israeli nation either.

Even though you keep drifting to other topics, as far as I'm concerned, I've only been asking why you are so much more forgiving of the 'evil' that the Israeli side does. Actually, I used the term 'barbaric' behaviour, you're the one who started with 'good' vs. 'evil'.

In any case, is it merely in 'bad taste' when people say things that make light of a tragedy such as the holocaust?

To me, no, that's beyond bad taste. It shows no respect for lives of others just because they are different. I'm not sure I'd say it's 'evil' that's more your term than mine, but I do definitely see more than 'bad taste' when people show such blatant disregard for human life by gloating about taking it.

If it were Palestinians sporting similar T-shirts, you might see it more than bad taste as well. You may even be quick to excuse further Israeli aggression because you can't blame them for being the way they are when their enemy mocks the sanctity of their lives so easily. Yet the same logic is not applied to the Palestinian side.

That's pretty much been my point all along.

[DogOnPorch]

No, I agree that the t-shirts do not represent the Israeli nation either.

Even though you keep drifting to other topics, as far as I'm concerned, I've only been asking why you are so much more forgiving of the 'evil' that the Israeli side does. Actually, I used the term 'barbaric' behaviour, you're the one who started with 'good' vs. 'evil'.

In any case, is it merely in 'bad taste' when people say things that make light of a tragedy such as the holocaust?

To me, no, that's beyond bad taste. It shows no respect for lives of others just because they are different. I'm not sure I'd say it's 'evil' that's more your term than mine, but I do definitely see more than 'bad taste' when people show such blatant disregard for human life by gloating about taking it.

If it were Palestinians sporting similar T-shirts, you might see it more than bad taste as well. You may even be quick to excuse further Israeli aggression because you can't blame them for being the way they are when their enemy mocks the sanctity of their lives so easily. Yet the same logic is not applied to the Palestinian side.

That's pretty much been my point all along.

Israel isn't based on the ideals of a former SS man and a key figure in the Holocaust. Hamas is...as was the PLO...as is Hezbollah. If that isn't "evil", nothing is. I just think Hamas supporters want all that swept under the carpet so they don't have to be reminded they are essentially supporting fascism. Good ol' Nazi brand fascism, at that. It's similar to the way they ignore the history of the Arab-Israeli Wars while at the same time calling for 1967 border this, or 1948 border that.

If a tasteless T-Shirt helps some with their continued support of Hamas, so be it. I don't think anything I could do would/could change their minds.

[Rue]

...why you are so keen to overlook the 'evil' that Israelis do...

...Did I say Palestnians are 'good' the way you say about Israelis? If so, quote me as I just quoted you.

Since you can't, please try again (fourth time is it now? I lost count), in explaining why you are so oblivious to the 'evil' things that Israelis do (as well) at times?

Read your words above BC Chick. From what I understand of you from reading many of your posts you are not intentionally bigoted and are very idealistic and support Palestinians because you see them as an underdog in a war of oppression.

My problem is that when you claim to criticize Israeli government policies or the policies of the IDF, you do what you do above, refer to "Israelis".

That in turn triggers off responses from people who feel they need to defend all Israelis and engage in the same reverse reference to all Palestinians.

Either way it is wrong to refer to Palestinians or Israelis if in fact we are allegedly debating Israeli government or IDF policies or the policies or actions of Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.

I think all of us me included of course, need to be much more disciplined in these debates to avoid stereotyping Israelis or Palestinians because then yes we get into these simplistic good versus bad debates.

Me personally I disagree with much of your criticism of Israeli policies and the IDF but I respect your opinions. I just will challenge you the way I do anyone when they engage in referring to to citizens in a collective sense as their reference for the governments or terrorists they are in fact referring to.

Now getting back to the actual topic what some of us would argue is this and that is there is a double standard when there is war with Hamas because Hamas is not held to any standard of morality while the IDF is.

On one level I believe the IDF must be held to a higher standard and be fully accountable precisely if it is to claim it is not a terrorist force and follows international law. Of course.

I am also saying it is easy to look at the IDF in a moral vacum during a conflict and second guess what it should be doing with terrorists. In the real world when fighting terror, what is morally correct may not be possible and therein lies the danger. Fighting terrorism draws conventional armies into a very murky area of engagement where one side will do whatever it feels necessary while the other is being told it has to follow a different code that may get it killed.

This story that made the news of Israeli soldiers talking frankly at an Israeli university about their perceived despair as to the moral behaviour of certain acts by IDF soldiers I think was taken far out of context by those with an agenda to engage in pro Hamas optics and partisanship.

What in fact happened was Israeli soldiers were trying to talk honestly and frankly about their concerns of having to engage as a conventional army but fight terrorists who hide behind civilians and are often invisible.

In fact the two stories widely quoted about these soldiers discussing a sniper who had shot a Palestinian woman, etc., were not even witnessed by those soldiers-in fact they were repeating second hand stories they had heard which they never said were true but they were concerned about-in the proper context of what they said they were being very critical of the role of a conventional army having to go after civilians hiding terrorists or caught between them and terrorists which showed their morality and regret. That was missed.

Instead it was picked up and run as evidence of brutality and how Israel is evil. If anything it showed otherwise-that IDF soldiers are human and regret what they must sometimes have to do in the heat of battle.

In the actual stories, they were investigated and of course there was another side to them and in fact they have not yet been corroborated by anyone first hand, Palestinian or Israeli.

Let me give you a very clear example. One of those stories was a tale of shooting a Palestinian woman. First of all it has not been verified yet. What these soldiers said in full context was that in certain situations a Palestinian woman will come at them and they realize to late she is strapped with bombs or is a man in disguise and so because of such things they may now find themselves having to shoot and kill Palestinian women if they can't get them to stop for fear it could happen again.

In its full context the reason the IDF ends up shooting and killing such a woman may not seem fair to you and seem brutal, but it did not happen in vacum. It comes in response to an earlier terrorist action that used a woman as a weapon and so set this stage.

That cause and effect is most often ignored in the partisan accusations against the IDF. They are simply seen as cold blooded killers shooting down a Palestinian woman. When someone like me tries to explain to you if they hesitated, and that woman proved to be a man in disguise or strapped with bombs, that hesitation to kill or shoot down the woman will get many soldiers killed.

That is the deep regret the IDF was talking about. They were talking about it precisely because they hate what terrorism is forcing them to do to Palestinian civilians.

The true soldier caught in this nightmare is not cold blooded-they are human and must in a split second preserve their life and the lives of their fellow soliers. That is their job.

Yes there are Israeli and Palestinian citizens now caught up in violent hatred displays and chauvenism. The thought of Lieberman being Foreign Minister for me for example is a loathsome one as I think he is precisely the kind of chauvenist the region does not need.

But Lierbman did not just appear in vacum because Israel is evil. His extremism evolved as a response to extremism from the other side. That is what happens when conflicts are prolonged and terrorists can not be stopped-it fuels intolerance on both sides.

What I ask people to do when they criticize Israeli soldiers or policies is to be balanced and fair and not just knee jerk react and use wire stories from the web to engage in name calling and partisan debating.

The fact is the IDF has a serious challenge trying to assure its soldiers do not exert too much force and kill innocent people-they know this-they struggle with it and their soldiers will and do make mistakes and the excessive force must be questioned and held accountable and challenged and for the most part it is-do not mistake however the IDF doing it in a way that may not be so simple or transparent to you. They can not and will not do it in a way where they ask their soldiers to simply roll over and die when a terrorist appears in a civilian area. They can not. If they did, terrorism would succeed and their civilians would soon be dead.

The real story here is two fold-one part deals with not just the IDF but any conventional army of a democracy forced to defend itself and follow laws. The other side of the story is a terror cell that openly has indicated it will not follow any international laws or domestic laws of democracy and will engage in brutal violence to express its will.

It is naive for anyone to think conventional armies when faced with lawless terrorists can act like Saints at all times. It doesn't excuse excessive force but it sure as hell doesn't necessarily make them evil either.

The big bad IDF that keeps getting referred to is full of civilians called up and who have to be in the army their whole lives. The people who criticize them live in a country where they will never have to joing an army and defend their people-so to me they are presumptious and this is why I wish some of them would go and sit and talk to war vets and temper their comments.

[BC_chick]

My problem is that when you claim to criticize Israeli government policies or the policies of the IDF, you do what you do above, refer to "Israelis".

That in turn triggers off responses from people who feel they need to defend all Israelis and engage in the same reverse reference to all Palestinians.

Touche, and guilty as charged. That is an important distinction. I was discussing the Israeli 'side' vs. the Palestinian 'side' and the barbarism that lurks within either two, but you're right, I am very keen on choosing one's vocabulary carefully and I slipped. Thanks for pointing it out.

The real story here is two fold-one part deals with not just the IDF but any conventional army of a democracy forced to defend itself and follow laws. The other side of the story is a terror cell that openly has indicated it will not follow any international laws or domestic laws of democracy and will engage in brutal violence to express its will.

On many current threads that passage may be true, and for the most part, I agree with much of your post which I found sincere and heartfelt. However, we are now discussing two different philosophical debates. I was responding to the following post from DoP:

QUOTE (DogOnPorch @ Mar 23 2009, 06:48 AM) *

Personally, I think Israel is going insane as a country. But, it didn't get that way on its own. Sort of like a big cat in a cage being poked from all sides...

This was in response to IDF members wearing Tshirts that gloated about killing pregnant women as well as children. The pictures are in the thread somewhere. I asked why DoP feels one side has been 'pushed' to random acts of barbarism amongst its members whereas the other side just happens to be that without provocation.

So as you see, using the term Israeli instead of IDF was kind of acceptable within its context (though you did make me more aware of how freely I interchange the two), and truth is, I still believe it's a little unfair to say one side is just 'evil' while the other is merely reacting.

Studies show that many suicide-bombers in Israel have lost family members to IDF. Are those people born evil too, or were they 'poked' from all sides (to use DoP's words) to reacting in a heinous way?

In other words, the discussion wasn't about the IDF conundrum in dealing with terrorists. It's a discussion about the role of nature vs nurture in developing 'evil' within a society at war.

Personally, I think all societies have their fair share of evil within them and that their nurtured environment just brings it out more. DoP, on the other hand, seems to feel otherwise.... he seems to place a lot more value in nurture on the Israeli side and nature on the Palestinian side.

Edited April 1, 2009 by BC_chick

[GostHacked]

Read your words above BC Chick. From what I understand of you from reading many of your posts you are not intentionally bigoted and are very idealistic and support Palestinians because you see them as an underdog in a war of oppression.

My problem is that when you claim to criticize Israeli government policies or the policies of the IDF, you do what you do above, refer to "Israelis". [\quote]

What would you want us to call them??

[DogOnPorch]

BC Chick: I asked why DoP feels one side has been 'pushed' to random acts of barbarism amongst its members whereas the other side just happens to be that without provocation.

Better read up on the Grand Mufti and Hamas some more. You're just not getting it re: my dislike for fascists and their supporters.

Cultural relativism will be the end of us all when we start viewing Radical Islam, Pan-Arabism and National Socialism as just another way of life.