Chrysler threatens to pull out of Canada

[GostHacked]

We are in alot of this mess because we have reduced the level of competition, through mergers and aquistions, and eliminated the competition completely in many cases.

But yet we have a wide range of vehicles to choose from for all price points. The choice for a vehicle has never been so vast before. And competition would be greater because of the wide selection out there. I wonder if the leasing of vehicles contributed to their downfall?? Cars get leased, returned, then resold as a used car. How often can one get a leased vehicle? And once the lease is up, so are most obligations for that vehicle.

No one wants to buy a car, they would rather lease the car and get rid of it before it starts having the problems every car does at a certain age. Things wear out and need to be replaced to keep the vehicle functioning properly. Mind you, you are always paying into the program, but that is for a newer car, and the older car.. who takes the loss if it is not sold.

I am one of the few who survives without owning/leasing a vehicle. I have better things to put my money towards. Cars lose value right off the lot, and you are always paying into it.

[Oleg Bach]

I heard that guy - that Chrysler executive state in no uncertain terms - "Give me two billion bucks now or I am going to screw you and thousands of people up" - Which does not make sense this kind of extortion because - they will just suck up the money and leave anyway - leaving a mass of unemployed workers...why is everyone handing money over to these guys - THIS IS AMBITIOUS MIDDLE MANAGEMENT ATTEMPTING TO PULL RANK - The big guys are long gone and these persons a scavengers - big time garbage eaters - and we respect them enough to hand billions into private hands with no guarentee of honouring a deal - because there really is no deal to speak off.

Where is the restructuring plan that encases the whole company - This is like giving a captain of a ship a bail out pail full of gold - he abandons ship and rows away in a life boat - leaving the ship (industry) to sink with all aboard - I really don't believe that they can fix the industry - because there is no will to make repairs - just to escape WITH ONE MORE PROFIT.

[madmax]

Toyota started scaling back production last year.

Yes, announcing in December 08 is scaling back, if you wish. That scaling back started with extended layoffs. The production numbers have to be rewritten, and that is not yet written in stone. Last year, Toyota was focused on overtaking GM. This year, the have a New President.

Infact as little as two weeks ago....

Toyota could reduce global vehicle production No word on how Woodstock plant might be affected

Posted By Bruce Urquhart, SUN MEDIA

Posted 15 days ago

Toyota Motor Manufacturing Canada (TMMC) officials are staying mum about a Monday report that suggests the Japanese company is set to reduce its global vehicle production by roughly 20 per cent.

According to Nikkei, Japan's leading business daily, the automaker is preparing for a 2009 target of 6.5 million vehicles, the company's lowest in six years. Despite the newspaper's report, Toyota has yet to provide its production goals for 2009 because of the continuing uncertainty in the sector.

There is still a waiting list for Rav 4s,

The first noticeable impact, though, was Toyota's decision to halve production temporarily at its newly opened Woodstock plant from 150,000 RAV4 vehicles per year to 75,000.

and Highlanders. You can get a Matrix or a Camry in a few weeks....you can get a sienna PDQ...and the Lexus is not, mass, mass produced to begin with.

Toyota is a far better run company...

I can go and buy any of those vehicles off the dealers lot.

As a result, dealers across Canada still have a glut of inventory, which has, in turn, contributed to temporary shutdowns at assembly plants.

Regardless, I have alot of friends in Toyota.... Cambridge and Woodstock. As well as in the support industries such as tetsu and boshoku.

Lexus is made on the production line. It is mass produced.

Toyota set up in Ontario, because of a skilled workforce and regional supplier support. Toyota also spawned alot Japanese suppliers in Ontario.

What you state regarding other plants is a falsehood and myth that many like to believe. You are entitled to your opinion.

The Japanese make their suppliers build in their margins to ensure viability. If the suppliers go under, life can get difficult in a hurry.

The North American model is far more cutthroat and quality/price driven. The quality is of the same standard as the Japanese, but the price margins quickly diminish in the bidding process.

All Ontario Manufacturers have their suppliers reduce the cost of the parts during the life of the contract.

GM is far more successful in getting suppliers to produce a money losing part, with the carrot of one that makes a buck.

Far too much emphasis and BS is put upon the abilities of an assembly plant.

An assembly plant puts the vehicles together, regardless the source of the parts. The assembly plant is not responsible for the quality of the parts, anymore then the Toyota Assemblers are responsible for the thickness of the steel.

That is why it is not unusual for a Toyota to have numerous pinholes and indentations polished and massaged out, only to burst out a few months after hiting the showroom.

Toyota is a better "Business" then GM.

Not necessarily a superior assembler. They do it differently, and it is not unsuccessful. It is a different model, and is used by many manufacturers.

[M.Dancer]

I can go and buy any of those vehicles off the dealers lot.

As long as you're not picky about the package or colour. I know this cause we are buying a car.

Regardless, I have alot of friends in Toyota.... Cambridge and Woodstock. As well as in the support industries such as tetsu and boshoku.

My sister in law is a senior manager at Cambridge.

Lexus is made on the production line. It is mass produced.

What I meant was the production numbers are not as high as their other brands. It is still a luxary brand.

What you state regarding other plants is a falsehood and myth that many like to believe. You are entitled to your opinion.

What did I state about other plants?

[madmax]

As long as you're not picky about the package or colour. I know this cause we are buying a car.

No one sells pink cars ... do they?

My sister in law is a senior manager at Cambridge.

That's a good thing.

What I meant was the production numbers are not as high as their other brands. It is still a luxary brand.

Agreed.

What did I state about other plants?

Nothing.

I just figured someone else would.

But, dealing with the thread title.... it is Chrysler, so something will be said.

There are a few guys here that do seem to know the pros and Failures of the NA auto.

Chrysler is interesting to me, because it is the smaller company. I don't believe it is in as deep shit as GM. And though smaller, Its one of these companies that if a True Manufacturer got ahold of it, It could be the hidden Gem.

I don't believe that any manufacturer, including companies capable of running such an operation, like Magna, are in any shape to take on such an endeavour.

[Topaz]

Why doesn't someone start a Canadian Made cars here in Canada? We have enough workers to build the units, we have the factories and tell the US owned car companies to go to Mexico or elsewhere! After listening to the committee last night on C-PAC, I knew that the CAW and Chrysler were headed for trouble just by the tone of their answers. They also said they rather be paid in US $ than Canadian. I'm seriously having doubts now about the loans to these US companies. I wish we could some how get other jobs for the CAW workers. On Windsor On. radio this AM, people were very angry of the threat and some said even if Chrysler survives, that they won't buy a Crysler product!

[M.Dancer]

Why doesn't someone start a Canadian Made cars here in Canada?

Do you have 6B to wager?

we have the factories

No we don't. The factories are private property

Any other ideas?

[Topaz]

Do you have 6B to wager?

No we don't. The factories are private property

Any other ideas?

[/quote

Yeah, wait until I win the lottery and I'll start one!! The factories will maybe private property but they will sell them or are they going to carry them across the border??

[Wild Bill]

Yeah, wait until I win the lottery and I'll start one!! The factories will maybe private property but they will sell them or are they going to carry them across the border??

Topaz, there are a LOT of details! First off, the only way you can compete building cars is to have your sales volume large enough to buy all your parts and things in bulk, at the best possible volume cost. That means if you only are going to sell in Canada you will be way too expensive. You have to count on big export production. If Chrysler can't compete with Toyota or Honda, let alone the Chinese, how do you expect to do it with a Canadian car?

You need more than just the factories and the guys on the production line. You also need all kinds of engineers to design the parts. You can't just make the same parts you made when you were a Chrysler factory. You'd get your ass sued off! So you have to pay for engineers to design a completely new car. And tool and die makers to make the machines produce completely new parts.

Make that cars! A car company that only offers one vehicle is going to have a tough time attracting customers.

6 billion is not a bad guess! You need to not only start up from scratch but you have to expect to need maybe 10 years to start selling enough to make a profit.

You know, we went through all this before, not that long ago. You might want to google up "Bricklin" and see what a fiasco that was! Then try "DeLorean".

As Gilda Radner always said "Details, always details!"

However, why would you want to use the old factories anyway? When horse and buggy time was passing it would have been crazy to take over a buggy factory. We need to make new cars that people want. That means green and clean in their technology but not more expensive than the old gasoline ones. If you're going to make an electric car what good is a factory with machines to make V6 engines?

I've read where some of the Silicon Valley whiz kids are looking at making electric cars. Those guys are the ones most likely to get it right! They have no old stuff to maintain and are used to coming up with new technology every week from their careers with computers!

Looking back, it never seemed to be the old companies that successfully changed. They tended to just go out of business or become a money-lending company. It wasn't Timex that invented the digital watch. It was an electronics company named Litronix. It wasn't Underwood or Royal Typewriter that invented computers and word processors, with computer printers.

Westinghouse, Motorola and GE all made zillions of tube radios and TV's. When transistors were invented they tried to keep up but the Japanese companies like Sony and Toshiba just buried them! So they got out of that business.

I think that the longer a company has been around the more it becomes "stuck in the mud". The people in the company only know how to do what they've always done. When you need them to do something dramatically new they're lost, from the guy on the production line all the way up to the company president.

Me, I don't think all these bailouts will do a damn bit of good in the long run. Give Chrysler all that money and what good will it do if they still make cars that nobody wants to buy?

It's all just a way for politicians to look like they're doing something, by spending all our money. It makes the autoworkers think that someone cares about them and they're likely to keep voting the same politicians into power. Actually DOING SOMETHING GOOD isn't likely to happen at all, except for the odd lucky fluke.

The world is changing, and you can't hold it back. There's no point in being a rock against the waves. You only get ground down.

Better to be a surf board and ride the waves!

Edited March 12, 2009 by Wild Bill

[Oleg Bach]

Why doesn't someone start a Canadian Made cars here in Canada? We have enough workers to build the units, we have the factories and tell the US owned car companies to go to Mexico or elsewhere! After listening to the committee last night on C-PAC, I knew that the CAW and Chrysler were headed for trouble just by the tone of their answers. They also said they rather be paid in US $ than Canadian. I'm seriously having doubts now about the loans to these US companies. I wish we could some how get other jobs for the CAW workers. On Windsor On. radio this AM, people were very angry of the threat and some said even if Chrysler survives, that they won't buy a Crysler product!

Yah take that cash and get a very fine domestic auto company going - high quality and most of all to become the envy of the world start making machines that are works of art - not those computer wind tunnel blobs...not saying go back to the fin and chrome era - but get young designers going that make status symbols that most can affort - shape is where it's at - and what do people want once they have a bit of cash? Why status and CLASS - Deloren had the right idea - so did the makers of the Avro Arrow - this is an opportunity _ Let ulititarian car makers keep making ugly machines - lets make some that are coooool......a cool car in every garage! Ford is bored and Chrysler is crying..Let them retire and move from a 6 million dollar home to a one million dollar one.

[Vancouver King]

I'm beginning to wonder how much of the Big 3's difficulties are the result of an automotive press that cannot revise it's judgement of quality and value from the horrible 1970's junk once made by N. American manufacturers.

A year ago I watched the two jokers on BNN's car half-hour program attack a Ford executive with inane questions and outright scorn on it's Aviator offering - not a single reason based on the vehicles performance, quality or value. The hatchet job caught my eye as I had rented one and was thoroughly impressed with it's performance and build quality. By comparison, all reviews by these guys of Japanese luxury SUVs begin with the obligatory sucking of the tailpipe while in the kneeling position.

Daily newspaper auto sections cannot even bother to review Detroit offerings, despite quality, mpg and service plans virtually on par with imports.

How much of Detroit's current woes are due to an auto press's knee jerk reaction, incapable of thinking beyond Asian imports?

[Wilber]

I don't want to see the "Death" of Chrysler, because I enjoy their styling. Just a long love affair with Mopar.

However, Wilber has correctly analysed the ownership of Chrysler.

Me too, I'm a Mopar guy from away back. My heart sank when Cerberus bought them. This is the company that formed ACE Aviation as a holding company for Air Canada. After getting major concessions from employees, creditors and government pension regulations, they sold off everything that wasn't nailed down and distributed 2 billion to ACE shareholders instead of reinvesting it in the company, which then had to go out and borrow those billions in order to renew its fleet. If the government is going to prop up Chrysler, it better make sure Cerberus doesn't pull that kind of scam again. These are the kind of guys who could be poster children for what went wrong with corporate North America, IMO.

[Wilber]

What I meant was the production numbers are not as high as their other brands. It is still a luxary brand.

In Japan, Lexus is just a Toyota. No such brand as Lexus there. Same goes for Infinity and Acura, just more Nissans and Hondas. You won't find an Acura NSX in Japan but you will find a Honda NSX. Nice cars though, regardless of what you call them.

[Wilber]

I'm beginning to wonder how much of the Big 3's difficulties are the result of an automotive press that cannot revise it's judgement of quality and value from the horrible 1970's junk once made by N. American manufacturers.

A year ago I watched the two jokers on BNN's car half-hour program attack a Ford executive with inane questions and outright scorn on it's Aviator offering - not a single reason based on the vehicles performance, quality or value. The hatchet job caught my eye as I had rented one and was thoroughly impressed with it's performance and build quality. By comparison, all reviews by these guys of Japanese luxury SUVs begin with the obligatory sucking of the tailpipe while in the kneeling position.

Daily newspaper auto sections cannot even bother to review Detroit offerings, despite quality, mpg and service plans virtually on par with imports.

How much of Detroit's current woes are due to an auto press's knee jerk reaction, incapable of thinking beyond Asian imports?

Good point. A bad rep is hard to overcome. Look at Hyundai, the original Ponies and Sonata's were pretty bad and they are still wearing that rep for being cheap when their quality and reliability ratings are now near the top. Their new Genesis based on its own merits should be a home run but could end up being a poor seller because of it. If Ford did anything right at Jaguar, it brought it's quality ratings from dismal to as good as anything in its class but Jag is still wearing that old rep they deserved in years gone by. If there is a light at the end of the tunnel, Japanese cars had the same kind of rep when they first appeared in North America but they did overcome it.

[Oleg Bach]

Good point. A bad rep is hard to overcome. Look at Hyundai, the original Ponies and Sonata's were pretty bad and they are still wearing that rep for being cheap when their quality and reliability ratings are now near the top. Their new Genesis based on its own merits should be a home run but could end up being a poor seller because of it. If Ford did anything right at Jaguar, it brought it's quality ratings from dismal to as good as anything in its class but Jag is still wearing that old rep they deserved in years gone by. If there is a light at the end of the tunnel, Japanese cars had the same kind of rep when they first appeared in North America but they did overcome it.

Japan was buying are scrap metal in the begining to make their cars and if you bought a Toyota or a Hyudai back in the day - they would rust to the thiness of paper in the first two years. They had horrible reputations..but they decided to take a bit of a fall and buy better quality steet...Profits were much less but they thought long term - that they would make the best. Their management and workers were willing to sacrafice for a while - while ours were not ready to put quality before profit in order to profit - in the long run.

[eyeball]

I'd nationalize Chrysler and retool it to build electric cars capable of driving on automated roads and highways. I'd dovetail this with an infrastructure project to build the automated system into our highways.

Its the 21st century and its time we started acting like it.

In the distant past, it didn't matter if a driver fell asleep. The horse knew the way home.

[M.Dancer]

I'd nationalize Chrysler and retool it to build electric cars capable of driving on automated roads and highways. I'd dovetail this with an infrastructure project to build the automated system into our highways.

Its the 21st century and its time we started acting like it.

In the distant past, it didn't matter if a driver fell asleep. The horse knew the way home.

And you would bankrupt Canada with your foolish idiocy

[eyeball]

So what? In case you hadn't noticed the whole planet's on the verge on bankruptcy.

Go back to sleep, we'll wake you up when we get there.

[noahbody]

We are in alot of this mess because we have reduced the level of competition, through mergers and aquistions, and eliminated the competition completely in many cases.

I'm not sure how you can look at the situation an claim competition has reduced. In recent years, in particular, we've seen an increase in the product quality of the KIAs and Subarus of the world. They're now in the 'quality car' category. The level of competition has been significantly increased.

[Wild Bill]

And you would bankrupt Canada with your foolish idiocy

Well, I agree that nationalization rarely works! It's a popular approach in Cuba and Venezuela. Not a lot of successful examples.

Still, giving money to 'old guys' who want to keep making buggies for horses seems 'foolish idiocy' to me! People do want alternatives.

That being said, I think there are a lot of misconceptions about WHY people want those alternatives! I doubt if being 'green' is number one on their list. I don't think the technology of their cars is that important to them at all.

No, it's all about the MONEY! We are dissatisfied with gasoline cars because of the price of gas! We might be in a price slump right now but we've been gouged so many times, like Charlie Brown with Lucy holding the football that we just don't want to participate any more!

People want hybrids because they believe they will then spend less of their income on gasoline. They would buy an electric car ONLY if they thought that their electric bill would increase less than their gasoline budget!

If going green was the primary motivation only hybrids would be sold today. Since they are still more expensive they are not yet the mainstream choice. They will have to reach the point where they are priced the same as traditional cars before we will experience a sea change in what we see on the road. The same will be true of electrics or whatever else comes along.

We have off-grid alternatives TODAY! The problem is that a wind or solar solution is about $30,000 which means a payback period of maybe 12-15 years. The average Canadian cannot afford to make that investment. He's just lost his job and he's worried about feeding his kids!

However, the prices and payback periods of new technologies are beginning to come down, including those with cars. Maybe if Chrysler started offering a hybrid minivan, for the same price as an old-fashioned powered model, it would have a future again. From my perspective, all I see is Chrysler playing negotiation games with the feds about staying in Canada TODAY! Not a word about any plan to be profitable in tomorrow's marketplace.

Looks like Chrysler's current general is not an Iococca but rather a Maginot...

[OddSox]

People want hybrids because they believe they will then spend less of their income on gasoline. They would buy an electric car ONLY if they thought that their electric bill would increase less than their gasoline budget!

Actually, people buy hybrids because it either makes them "look good" or "feel good". The difference in cost will rarely be paid back through savings in fuel.

However, the prices and payback periods of new technologies are beginning to come down, including those with cars. Maybe if Chrysler started offering a hybrid minivan, for the same price as an old-fashioned powered model, it would have a future again.

Why? Nobody else sells a hybrid for the same price as the gas-powered model...

From my perspective, all I see is Chrysler playing negotiation games with the feds about staying in Canada TODAY! Not a word about any plan to be profitable in tomorrow's marketplace.

True, but it has nothing to do with a 'made-in-canada' car company, or with hybrids, or with the economy...

[Renegade]

Why doesn't someone start a Canadian Made cars here in Canada? We have enough workers to build the units, we have the factories and tell the US owned car companies to go to Mexico or elsewhere! After listening to the committee last night on C-PAC, I knew that the CAW and Chrysler were headed for trouble just by the tone of their answers. They also said they rather be paid in US $ than Canadian. I'm seriously having doubts now about the loans to these US companies. I wish we could some how get other jobs for the CAW workers. On Windsor On. radio this AM, people were very angry of the threat and some said even if Chrysler survives, that they won't buy a Crysler product!

Perhaps the "someone" who should make Canadian Made cars is the CAW. Let them use their retirement funds and other funds to purchase Chrysler Canada and pump out Canadian made cars. Then they can pay their workers whatever they please. Only they seem to have the confidence that they can continue to sell cars in the current environment and make a profit.

BTW, how is the threats from Chrysler any different from threats the CAW has issued from time to time?