Robert Dziekanski

[bjre]

This is just another human right lesson I have learned in Canada.

http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/C...ishColumbiaHome

[eyeball]

Why is this case receiving so much more attention compared to many such cases...?

Is this really about the Tazer?

No I think it goes much deeper than that. The camel might have finally broken its back on Robert Dziekanski.

If anything Taser International is probably regretting the day it ever got involved with the RCMP. I doubt the old saw about no publicity being the least of two evils applies in this case.

[ToadBrother]

All I know is what I saw in the rough video. The man is out cold and a cop has his knee on an unconscious mans wind pipe - the knee killed him - not the tazer.

I would the results of asphyxiation would have be readily detectable during the autopsy. As it was, there was no clear reason for the man to have died, which leads me to believe that repeated blasts of current probably stopped his heart. The cops simply can't user Taser International's stock answer of "excited delirium" (which, BTW, is a marketing invention and not, in any way, shape or form a medical diagnosis), because Dziekanski was not some drugged-out freek. No one can tell me that 50,000 volts, even at low amperage, could not have potentially catastrophic effects on heart rhythm.

Stopping the man's heart with an electrical current would probably not leave very many obvious physical effects, because it's the electrical rhythm of the heart that is interfered with. Since this is not a massive electrical shock like, say, a lightning strike, you won't get the burn marks, or any kind of indicative damage that one can absolutely say "this weapon killed the man".

I wouldn't even advocate the removal of Tasers. I think they are safer than a gun, but I think that a much clearer understanding of potential physiological effects is needed before we send out every cop in the world with one at his or her side. Quite frankly, I think it's utterly irresponsible and reprehensible that so many police forces are using these weapons based solely on the manufacturer's guidelines. Before a single one of these things was sold, there should have been *independent* studies done, to better understand the potential situations in which this so-called non-lethal weapon can be lethal.

Edited March 3, 2009 by ToadBrother

[eyeball]

I wouldn't even advocate the removal of Tasers. I think they are safer than a gun, but I think that a much clearer understanding of potential physiological effects is needed before we send out every cop in the world with one at his or her side. Quite frankly, I think it's utterly irresponsible and reprehensible that so many police forces are using these weapons based solely on the manufacturer's guidelines. Before a single one of these things was sold, there should have been *independent* studies done, to better understand the potential situations in which this so-called non-lethal weapon can be lethal.

I think they're loathsome things. Tasers remind me of those big long sticks I've seen poilce whack people with in less democractic parts of the world. They're just being used way to indiscriminately.

The only condition under which I would accept Tasers is that every cop who carries one is also required to wear a camera on his head to record everything they do. Cops in Britain wear cameras on their heads and they love them. They keep everyone honest and make it a lot easier to gather evidence of wrongdoing, from both sides persepective.

[Argus]

But being tasered five times?

I'm not siding with these cops. So far they've been revealed as incompetent, uncaring, and dishonest. And one in particular seemed to have had an unhealthy fascination with his taser as well. I'm not sure he, at least, should even be a cop any more. Isn't there a rule against falsifying your reports in the RCMP?

But let's not pretend this guy was acting reasonably. He was acting like an A-hole.

[kimmy]

Depends on where...saw a clip of some swigaroe of a female cop screams to her comrads of the cattle prod...who have just tazered a big scarey drunk who is now stunned and still....."Hit him again" - tazer him again...she was clearly getting her jollies... what ever happened to the long leaded 4 ft trudgeon ---- give the guy a crack on the sholder, hand or arm and break some bones...that would be safer than the death zap...

WHAT female officer, you imbecile?

Either you're trying to invent facts to support your moronic world view, or you're so deranged that you actually see angry scary women where they don't even exist.

-k

[Argus]

Training...sure. Who was the on-scene commander / supervisor. Was it like Ghostbusters when Venkman says:

"Alright.... this chick is TOAST! ....Let's show this prehistoric bitch how we do things downtown!"

It doesn't sound like anyone was in charge. If there was he needs to not be in charge any more. And that moron with the taser needs to have it taken away from him permanently - maybe his badge, too. Apparently he used to be a personal trainer. It's looking like that ought to be how he earns his living in future.

[Argus]

Having a bad day, Kimmy?

[kimmy]

This incident is a black eye on an honourable branch of the public service for a number of reasons, four lazy cops arrive at a disturbance, being impatient they asses the situation for perhaps five seconds and attack with force. Not satisfactorily subdued by one or two taser jolts while writhing on the floor they hit him three more times.

Under questoning they claim to have followed proceedure, though clearly they did not, they were not even aware he could not speak english though there were several people standing there who could have filled them in on this trivial bit of information.

Worst of all they refuse to assume any responsibility and try to smear this poor fellows character. Pitiful really.

Well said.

The cops had the man on the ground within thirty seconds of arriving. Now no one can tell me that this was enough time to adequately size-up the situation. The video shows the cops pretty much ignoring the Tazer rules that were in place, shows them doing nothing to communicate with him, or any kind of meaningful assessment.

But that's not the worst part of this. There's a helluva lot of collusion to hide the truth of what happened, from the attempt to keep the video, to the officers in question basically getting a chance to get their stories to jive with each other, to a pretty inept attempt by the RCMP to paint Dziekanski as some sort of alcoholic misanthropic criminal who basically deserved what he got.

The video doesn't lie. The RCMP officers did not follow their own procedures. Not that it matters, because they've basically been let off the hook anyways.

Indeed. By their explanation of the death at the time, and the reports that they filed, you'd think they were taking down Vincent Li.

The video has proven that their statements were bald-faced lies. The officers have been testifying and have looked like utter fools trying to reconcile their earlier statements with what is shown in the video. Over and over they've conceded that their statements contained "errors". The inquiry lawyers are too polite to call the statements what they are: lies. They have outright lied in the reports they filed, and I have to believe that the RCMP must have some kind of disciplinary policy for filing reports that would have, if delivered in a court of law, got them jail time for perjury.

The worst part is that this only comes to light because the officers were unlucky enough to be caught on tape. There is no doubt in my mind that if not for the video they'd have gotten away with no scrutiny, no consequences, and no accountability.

The lawyer-prepared non-apology expression of remorse to Dziekanski's mom was a real treasure. They're not sorry for what they did. They are sorry because they got filmed doing it.

-k

[kimmy]

Having a bad day, Kimmy?

Bad case of olegitis.

-k

[Rue]

However I stand by the side of the RCMP officers, I mean if you don't speak english do you think it could be handy to learn some before coming to CANADA! I mean what do you think we speak here, German?

...Some dude who walks into a Vancouver airport, dies because he's to dumb to get some english under his belt before coming to a dominantly english country and we have to spend millions of tax payer dollars on looking into his death. How wacky!

How much tax has Dziekanski paid to Canada? None? that is what I thought, so why do Canadian taxpayers have to foot the bill because he couldn't learn a little english?

Your comments are nonsensical. First of all you assume when people travel they must speak the language of the country they travel to. That in itself is absurd enough but then you compound your illogical assumption by blaming the victim for not speaking English and then suggesting he brought it on himself because he should have learned English.

He was in an international airport. Tell me did it not dawn on you that an international airports people travelling through them may not speak the language of the country of the airport and so international airports are supposed to be equipped to handle many languages? Is that hard for you to fathom?

The real issue is that no one at the airport made an attempt to communicate with this man in Polish and they knew he was Polish. All they had to do was take a cell phone and use a Bell operator to translate.

The real issue is they left him over 8 hours sitting and being ignored. Anyone of us in a foreign country faced with that would be upset.

What compounds this insanity is that his mother was just on the other side of the corridor and sent home and the airline made no effort to service this trapped man and told the wife they had no idea where he was.

Of course that seems to have gone right over your head.

What if this man could not speak at all because of an illness. Right I get it-he deserves to die because he should not travel if he is a mute. If a traveller can't speak English and has a heart attack-they should die if they can't call for help in English. Brilliant.

I am not sure if you came on this forum to bait people or you are genuinely this ignorant but you had better pray you don't ever travel outside that little tiny world of yours and ever need someone's help.

What goes around comes around.

If you can not see the needless tragedy in what happened do us all a favour and stop speaking. The fact you communicate in English does not make it any more meaningful.

Your attempt to ridicule a man who died needlessly and in pain is as low as it gets.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Rue

[Argus]

The only condition under which I would accept Tasers is that every cop who carries one is also required to wear a camera on his head to record everything they do. Cops in Britain wear cameras on their heads and they love them. They keep everyone honest and make it a lot easier to gather evidence of wrongdoing, from both sides persepective.

First I've heard of this, though the brits are camera mad. I had a look-see, and I like the idea. Not only will it keep cops honest but it makes it very hard to deny guilt or misbehaviour on the part of people caught red-handed. It leads to earlier guilty pleas and frees up courts. I'd go so far as saying every cop ought to have one.

[Rue]

The information that has come out indicates a police offer tasered this man 5 times. That speaks for itself.

This case clearly shows why tasers should not be used.

There are two alternative restraint tools a police officer can use other then their basic non verbal language training and their baton training and that is:

1-a gun that shoots out a foam that encases the body and solidifies preventing the arms and legs from being able to be used;

2-a gun that shouts out a restraining net.

In the above case the police officers jumped to the use of the taser without exhausting their non verbal language training. They did so not intentionally but precisely because the option was there and its human nature to use it if you have it available.

These officers were trained to approach an agitated man and use the universal sign language to calm someone down which is to stand with palms open to the side-somehow that was skipped over.

I am the first to defend police officers when they make mistakes but I think in this case police training officers who reviewed the incident were very upfront about the mistakes and failure to follow approved guidelines that happened.

There is no way a man should be tasered 5 times in such a short period of time and it appears it was used to early and not as a last resort.

The key here is no one bothering to find out what his language was and using a cell phone operator to speak with him. That is inexcusable.

[Argus]

The information that has come out indicates a police offer tasered this man 5 times. That speaks for itself.

This case clearly shows why tasers should not be used.

It shows nothing of the sort. It only shows that guy should not be a cop. Tasers can be an effective tool, but they should never be used as a means to compel compliance with orders. They should only be used to subdue violent people where other means are likely to cause more damage - to them or the officers.

[eyeball]

First I've heard of this, though the brits are camera mad. I had a look-see, and I like the idea. Not only will it keep cops honest but it makes it very hard to deny guilt or misbehaviour on the part of people caught red-handed. It leads to earlier guilty pleas and frees up courts. I'd go so far as saying every cop ought to have one.

I'm quite certain I've posted links to this site on many occasions.

But what are we to make of this?

VANCOUVER — Just weeks before the Tasering of Robert Dziekanski was caught on a bystander’s video and shown around the world, B.C. RCMP warned its officers that the availability of cheap cameras and sites such as YouTube could expose them to unprecedented public scrutiny.

Source

Our state's culture of secrecy is a habit that will be very difficult to break. Many do not want to break it.

Edited March 3, 2009 by eyeball

[ToadBrother]

It shows nothing of the sort. It only shows that guy should not be a cop. Tasers can be an effective tool, but they should never be used as a means to compel compliance with orders. They should only be used to subdue violent people where other means are likely to cause more damage - to them or the officers.

I'm in agreement with this. I don't think we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. What we need is for the RCMP (and other police forces) to have a clear policy on their use, and the means by which to punish officers who defy that policy. These officers, even with the somewhat flimsy policies in place at the time, clearly were in violation, and they need to be punished. I have little confidence that they will, at least in any meaningful way.

[Oleg Bach]

I'm in agreement with this. I don't think we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. What we need is for the RCMP (and other police forces) to have a clear policy on their use, and the means by which to punish officers who defy that policy. These officers, even with the somewhat flimsy policies in place at the time, clearly were in violation, and they need to be punished. I have little confidence that they will, at least in any meaningful way.

Tasers kill because there is no system of high level training in these regards - a cop should never be fully dependent on his or her gun - nor should they be dependant on a tazer. Instead of inforcers we will have pubic executioners..henchpersons ---As I previously mentioned -------------------------------as B C mentioned "stun gun" - The tazer is meant to stun not eletrocute for God's sake! The training should consist of special small well oiled units of law enforcers - who are as skilled as a highly rehearsed rock band.... THEY SHOULD STUN AND SUBDUE..this should be done - within two and one half seconds....UNTIL WE TAKE THE TIME TO TRAIN SPECIAL TAZER UNITS CONSISTING OF FIVE OFFICERS..THE TAZER SHOULD NOT BE USED...

ONE highly skilled zapper - and another four to secure each arm and leg..then the tazer will be what it was meant to be - a life saver of the lost - depressed and insane or of hooliganist character - oh yah - and poorly behaved drunks.

[bush_cheney2004]

The training should consist of special small well oiled units of law enforcers - who are as skilled as a highly rehearsed rock band.... THEY SHOULD STUN AND SUBDUE..this should be done - within two and one half seconds....UNTIL WE TAKE THE TIME TO TRAIN SPECIAL TAZER UNITS CONSISTING OF FIVE OFFICERS..THE TAZER SHOULD NOT BE USED...

I can see it now....William Shatner reprising his role as TJ Hooker/Captain Kirk, and telling his SWAT Team to "Set Tazers on stun.....Fire!"

[jdobbin]

I'm not siding with these cops. So far they've been revealed as incompetent, uncaring, and dishonest. And one in particular seemed to have had an unhealthy fascination with his taser as well. I'm not sure he, at least, should even be a cop any more. Isn't there a rule against falsifying your reports in the RCMP?

Were it not for the videotape, I think no one would have known the just how inaccurate the police statements were. It is why police in Winnipeg appear to have confiscated both media and civilian recording equipment in recent months. Sometimes the filming have been arrested and the tapes were mysteriously erased.

One egregious case is a TV news videographer being arrested for recording when he was outside the police exclusion zone.

But let's not pretend this guy was acting reasonably. He was acting like an A-hole.

I have no doubt that he was acting out. I have my doubt that he was fighting police though.

[Wilber]

Tasers kill because there is no system of high level training in these regards - a cop should never be fully dependent on his or her gun - nor should they be dependant on a tazer. Instead of inforcers we will have pubic executioners..henchpersons ---As I previously mentioned -------------------------------as B C mentioned "stun gun" - The tazer is meant to stun not eletrocute for God's sake! The training should consist of special small well oiled units of law enforcers - who are as skilled as a highly rehearsed rock band.... THEY SHOULD STUN AND SUBDUE..this should be done - within two and one half seconds....UNTIL WE TAKE THE TIME TO TRAIN SPECIAL TAZER UNITS CONSISTING OF FIVE OFFICERS..THE TAZER SHOULD NOT BE USED...

ONE highly skilled zapper - and another four to secure each arm and leg..then the tazer will be what it was meant to be - a life saver of the lost - depressed and insane or of hooliganist character - oh yah - and poorly behaved drunks.

pubic executioners? Yikes, I'm still trying to get my head around that one. Oleg, you do have a warped mind.

[Oleg Bach]

pubic executioners? Yikes, I'm still trying to get my head around that one. Oleg, you do have a warped mind.

You over estimate my insanity.. I am an embelisher - all artists practice artifice - or lieing...to some degree---- I am being what you call dramatic....the "public executioners" - was literal - the man died in public - and was executed out of sheer incompetence --- The officers are not trained properly - the tazer is a good idea but it has to be refined not just mechanically but in how it is applied - If you or I have a son or daughter that for instance gets drunk or takes a drug - while out on the town ---- if they some how go bizerk...Last thing you want is for them to be blasted centre mass by a glock --- and the last thing you want is an accidental stopage of the heart through crude methods of stunning....People like the idea because of the worst parts of human hateful nature to see a mad man zapped....but it is wrong...and when it is one of their own...THEN they will protest poor law enforcement strategy...."YIKES" - did not mean to frighten you - should have explained I was an actor for a while ........how about a death ray...blasted down from a black chooper...?

[Wilber]

You over estimate my insanity.. I am an embelisher - all artists practice artifice - or lieing...to some degree---- I am being what you call dramatic....the "public executioners" - was literal - the man died in public - and was executed out of sheer incompetence --- The officers are not trained properly - the tazer is a good idea but it has to be refined not just mechanically but in how it is applied - If you or I have a son or daughter that for instance gets drunk or takes a drug - while out on the town ---- if they some how go bizerk...Last thing you want is for them to be blasted centre mass by a glock --- and the last thing you want is an accidental stopage of the heart through crude methods of stunning....People like the idea because of the worst parts of human hateful nature to see a mad man zapped....but it is wrong...and when it is one of their own...THEN they will protest poor law enforcement strategy...."YIKES" - did not mean to frighten you - should have explained I was an actor for a while ........how about a death ray...blasted down from a black chooper...?

But tazering someone in the pubes, really!

Tazers are a useful tool and can save lives but you have a point about training. I don't think all forces are equal in respect to tazer training. Ultimately it comes down to the one pulling the trigger.

If I was in a foreign country where I didn't speak the language and was confronted by four armed police officers, I don't think I would start yelling and throwing things around. Having said that, it is hard to see any way of justifying what happened to Dziekanski.

[Oleg Bach]

But tazering someone in the pubes, really!

Tazers are a useful tool and can save lives but you have a point about training. I don't think all forces are equal in respect to tazer training. Ultimately it comes down to the one pulling the trigger.

If I was in a foreign country where I didn't speak the language and was confronted by four armed police officers, I don't think I would start yelling and throwing things around. Having said that, it is hard to see any way of justifying what happened to Dziekanski.

Not everybody is as aware as you or I or in control - If a person is an adult and has not developed control or awareness perhaps due to a general lack of intelligence of some emotional or mental difficulty - you still have to be skilled in many areas to deal with such a "rube" as you guys like to say. As a hard partying young man I had a few alercations with police - submission and respect always won the day - I was taught by my parents that law and law enforcers are to be respected - I really can not understand who anyone could even consider raising a hand to a police officer...I guess times have change all over the world - But our early cops in Canada were Brits and Scotts - they were professionals and loving...they were there to help not over whelm. Maybe we have these problems because our authorities have de-volved into those that want to dominate and not serve - and that is reflected in law enforcement?

The herald on the police cars in York Region (north of Toronto) at one time said ...TO SERVE AND PROTECT.... to me that was in perspective and civil. Then they changed it to DEEDS SPEAK......which to me is an agressive statement that conveys the idea that if you get out of line we will get you...What YOU do is your statement to us...if you a disruptive - we are going to disrupt your central nervous system with a million volts...

[ReeferMadness]

I'm ashamed and afraid of my national police force.

Four officers attacked one man without making any reasonable attempt to communicate with him. Yes, a taser was supposedly a non-lethal device but they shocked him 5 times!!!! And then they sat on him. And then they ignored him while he died. Their excuse is that he was holding a stapler.

Since then, it's been one big cover-up. First they confiscated the video and the video's owner had to retain a lawyer to get it back. The officers' notes contained all sorts of things that never happened, like a guy screaming and attacking them. They met as a group and discussed the matter. This part alone is amazing. Say the police came to a scene where 4 guys and the body of a fifth guy who the other 4 claimed they killed in self-defence. Would they let the 4 guys sit in a room to get their stories aligned????? Of course, as is normal in these cases, there was no serious attempt to find anyone culpable. The police protect their own.

They were criticized by the witnesses who described Dziekanski as confused and frustrated but not as dangerous. They were critized by the fireman as unprofressional. They've been criticized by use of force experts for not knowing what the hell they were doing. They've been criticized by the Government of Poland for withholding information.

Now, reading what's happening on the witness stand, it's one big travesty - an embarrassment to Canada. One after another, these members of our national police force are having to watch what happened and recant substantial portions of their own statements. They were tired. They didn't remember it happening that way. All they can remember clearly is that they were deathly afraid of a man with a stapler. God help us all.

Probably one or two of them will face some minor sanctions because of the public outrage. But the only reason for the public outrage is the video. Had they been successful in suppressing it, the inquiry, had there been one, would have been nothing more than people arguing over differing versions of what happened.

We need and deserve a police force without a Gestapo mentality. And we need civilian oversight of all police forces.

[Oleg Bach]

You over estimate the sinisterism - to use the word Gestapo removes your crediblity. This is not orgainized or intentional totalitarian terror..This is plain old fashioned ineptness. It's very similar to those that believe that there are serious and highly intelligent orgainzed persons who are attempting to create a "new world order" - that the finacial crisis is one of those conspiratorial things "order out of chaos" - no need to be ashamed of your police force or afraid of them - be ashamed of yourself for not being daring enough to educate yourself with the facts that - there is no new world order - nor does a bunch of wizard like Cabalists exist promoting international Zionist control over humanity..

- the truth is...plain and simple stupidy - greed and lazyness on those that are supposedly in control - we assume that the rich and powerful are highly aware and intelligent..because we are conditioned so - this is not always the case - our system has become so vast and so complex that it is almost unmanageble - this is a world wide phenomena - there is no man behind the curtain..and no secret society - It is up to you to speak...and it is up to all to believe we are all kings and queens and we are in control - If this was an episode of star trek...and you made your way to the bridge to see who is flying the ship - you will find empty chairs...and dust - and an over worked auto-piloting system about to break...take a seat - steer the ship if you have a good couse of travel and action - The RCMP an our federals and liberals rare a bit stunned...those of great ambition want to the glory of political office - not those of great wisdom..if you are wise - then step forward.