Robert Dziekanski

[roof_top_eagle]

I talked about this a little in my blog in a post called No charges in death of Robert Dziekanski Today I heard on CBC that the defense for the RCMP Officers who are blamed for his death is going to cite that the officers were doing what they are trained to do how they are trained to do it and that Dziekanski was a threat when he wielded a stapler.

Personally I think 4 highly trained RCMP officers could control a guy using a stapler as a weapon!

However I stand by the side of the RCMP officers, I mean if you don't speak english do you think it could be handy to learn some before coming to CANADA! I mean what do you think we speak here, German?

That aside, what I find appalling is that these officers have been on paid leave for 16 months! This inquiry should have been over and done with in a week. Nothing will bring Dziekanski back so why 1) waste taxpayers money looking into his death for 16+ months and 2) not put these officers back on the beat? I mean they are being paid, so why not have them work?

Is this how we manage our money now? Some dude who walks into a Vancouver airport, dies because he's to dumb to get some english under his belt before coming to a dominantly english country and we have to spend millions of tax payer dollars on looking into his death. How wacky!

How much tax has Dziekanski paid to Canada? None? that is what I thought, so why do Canadian taxpayers have to foot the bill because he couldn't learn a little english?

What do you guys think? I think this inquiry is a waste of money, and that the RCMP must be desperate for officers if the guys they can get are scared of staplers.

[blueblood]

Here's an experiment, have one of your buddies take a stapler and whack you in the head as hard as they can and tell us what happens

Edited February 22, 2009 by Charles Anthony
deleted entirely re-quoted Opening Post

[scorpio]

Here's an experiment, have one of your buddies take a stapler and whack you in the head as hard as they can and tell us what happens

And make sure there are 3 other buddies trying to stop him.

[Oleg Bach]

And make sure there are 3 other buddies trying to stop him.

Some cops will yell...."put the crayon down...step away from the crayon..." He raises the red wax cylinder and suddenly -----boom - shot dead....Because of equity in hiring law enforcement - we have tiny little men with no physical power who must resort to either tazering or shooting for center mass.. Cops have to have authority..naturally - no artifically.

[blueblood]

And make sure there are 3 other buddies trying to stop him.

Experiment still holds, what happens when somebody gets whacked with a stapler as hard as they can?

[Oleg Bach]

Experiment still holds, what happens when somebody gets whacked with a stapler as hard as they can?

Same thing as a boney brawny fist or a big stick.

[kimmy]

The handling of Robert Dziekanski was disgraceful. They were talking about tasering him before they even saw him. Officials at the airport screwed things up terribly before the RCMP even arrived, of course, but the evidence coming out of the inquiry has been utterly shameful.

The incident illustrates what people have been referring to as "usage creep": use of the taser in situations not just where it's warranted, but in situations where it's convenient. It was supposed to be used as a safer alternative to batons or guns.

But police have also been using it as a means of forcing compliance.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Metro/1106963.html

Two police officers couldn't handle a 17 year old girl without a taser?

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Tasered+...7501/story.html

Two police officers couldn't handle a 14 year old girl who was already in jail?

http://www.kelowna.thesun.net/node/637401

The RCMP couldn't handle a 68 year old man who hadn't even gotten out of his car? He was "resisting arrest and combative" ...while he was still behind the wheel of his car? The man's wife said in a radio interview I heard that "resisting arrest and combattive" was actually more along the lines of "confused and frightened".

The police have taken the attitude that the taser is harmless so they can "shoot first and ask questions later". It's an appalling attitude, and they deserve all the scrutiny they're facing now. They've earned it. They've taken what should have been a great tool, and ruined it through reckless overuse and lack of accountability.

-k

[blueblood]

The handling of Robert Dziekanski was disgraceful. They were talking about tasering him before they even saw him. Officials at the airport screwed things up terribly before the RCMP even arrived, of course, but the evidence coming out of the inquiry has been utterly shameful.

The incident illustrates what people have been referring to as "usage creep": use of the taser in situations not just where it's warranted, but in situations where it's convenient. It was supposed to be used as a safer alternative to batons or guns.

But police have also been using it as a means of forcing compliance.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Metro/1106963.html

Two police officers couldn't handle a 17 year old girl without a taser?

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Tasered+...7501/story.html

Two police officers couldn't handle a 14 year old girl who was already in jail?

http://www.kelowna.thesun.net/node/637401

The RCMP couldn't handle a 68 year old man who hadn't even gotten out of his car? He was "resisting arrest and combative" ...while he was still behind the wheel of his car? The man's wife said in a radio interview I heard that "resisting arrest and combattive" was actually more along the lines of "confused and frightened".

The police have taken the attitude that the taser is harmless so they can "shoot first and ask questions later". It's an appalling attitude, and they deserve all the scrutiny they're facing now. They've earned it. They've taken what should have been a great tool, and ruined it through reckless overuse and lack of accountability.

-k

Your missing the point, this is about workplace safety. They don't know what these people are capable of. They could be trained ninjas for all they know. Also why should somebody going to work have to have the crap beat out of them. Why is it all right for the suspects to inflict pain on the police, but not the police to use measures to defend themselves?

Would you like to be smacked around at work?

It's quite simple really, listen and you don't get tased. Save the fight for court.

[guyser]

Today I heard on CBC that the defense for the RCMP Officers who are blamed for his death is going to cite that the officers were doing what they are trained to do how they are trained to do it and that Dziekanski was a threat when he wielded a stapler.

I suppose sheafs of paper were cowering in the corner. "Oh no, the stapler is out!"

Personally I think 4 highly trained RCMP officers could control a guy using a stapler as a weapon!

One would hope so, but apparently not.

I mean if you don't speak english do you think it could be handy to learn some before coming to CANADA! I mean what do you think we speak here, German?

Yes, lets make it a law, that way we can shut down whatever remains of our tourism sector.Hell, no tourist company needs the money

Some dude who walks into a Vancouver airport, dies because he's to dumb to get some english under his belt before coming to a dominantly english country and we have to spend millions of tax payer dollars on looking into his death. How wacky!

How much tax has Dziekanski paid to Canada? None? that is what I thought, so why do Canadian taxpayers have to foot the bill because he couldn't learn a little english?

What do you guys think?

Apart from the total lack of understanding on your part?

Not much

[guyser]

Your missing the point,

No blueblood, kimmy nailed it.

this is about workplace safety. They don't know what these people are capable of. They could be trained ninjas for all they know.

No it isnt. This case is about cops who, presumably, became real dumb on that day.

If it were about safety, then they should have come in full riot gear, helmets , leg and arm protection, shields, the whole shebang.

Also why should somebody going to work have to have the crap beat out of them. Why is it all right for the suspects to inflict pain on the police, but not the police to use measures to defend themselves?

You and I going to work should not expect that. A cop on the other hand , signs up with the expectation that it will and can occur , thus that is why they get trained in self defence, and given the appropriate weapons to use at the appropriate times.

This was not one of those times.

Would you like to be smacked around at work?

Nope, but being in insurance I sure do get abused when those rates climb

It's quite simple really, listen and you don't get tased. Save the fight for court.

Listen to what? He didnt speak the language.

An airport is a place where persons of other languages will arrive. We all know it, including Van airport and have staff on hand who speak numerous languages.

From everything I have seen w this case, he was not a threat (immediately) and someone should have obtained an interpretor , or at least his mom.

[eyeball]

Your missing the point, this is about workplace safety.

You sound just like the bureaucrat I was talking to the other day who insists I have to take a course and send him $250 so I can walk around the bush and use a chainsaw like I have been for the last 35 years.

At least you're not trying to tell me cops have saved the 20 odd thousand people that have been Tasered from being shot with a bullet instead.

Here's a much safer alternative to both Tasers and bullets.

[Smallc]

We're forgetting one important point. There was really no reason for them to even suspect that the weapon would kill him. Do I think theyw ent to it too fast? Yes? Do I think that they had any intent other than to subdue him and defuse the situation? No.

[blueblood]

No it isnt. This case is about cops who, presumably, became real dumb on that day.

If it were about safety, then they should have come in full riot gear, helmets , leg and arm protection, shields, the whole shebang

How were they dumb? Perp had a weapon, perp was throwing around furniture endangering people. They had no idea what he was capable of, then he came at them with the stapler in hand. The numbers don't matter. Had they restrained him the old fashioned way, one or two members would have had caught a stapler upside the head, and the perp would have sustained who knows what injuries from the beatdown of batons. He could have had a heart attack from that as well. At work, place your hand on your desk and whack it with a stapler and tell me what that's like. Why is it all right for the cops to get the beat down and not perps? I know you don't like the fact that the police have a legitimate right to use force, but that's the price we all pay for our safety.

You and I going to work should not expect that. A cop on the other hand , signs up with the expectation that it will and can occur , thus that is why they get trained in self defence, and given the appropriate weapons to use at the appropriate times.

Yes he has the expectation, but does he not have the right to his own safety? Those members put the training and appropriate weapons to use at the airport. Had the perp. not had a heart condition, this would be a non issue. No members and no innocent people got hurt, the cops did their job.

Nope, but being in insurance I sure do get abused when those rates climb

And I'm pretty sure you can tell those who do abuse you to get the hell out of your office or hang up the phone. You don't have to put up with getting smacked around, why should they? Your propping up a double standard.

Listen to what? He didnt speak the language.

An airport is a place where persons of other languages will arrive. We all know it, including Van airport and have staff on hand who speak numerous languages.

From everything I have seen w this case, he was not a threat (immediately) and someone should have obtained an interpretor , or at least his mom.

A polish interpreter at the trial testified that the perpetrator was well aware that those four were police officers. If I'm in a foreign country and four guys who are in uniform and armed are yelling at me, I hit the floor with my hands on my head.

That's BS he wasn't a threat, he was throwing furniture around, and lunged at the members with a weapon. How many members would you have liked to seen there sustain injuries? one, two. How about their families? Would you explain to them why hubby has to come home with his bell rung, so the perp can have a fair fight. What if a civilian got injured from the perp's temper tantrum if they waited for an interpreter. What happened was an accident, be happy that they didn't plug him.

Cops aren't supposed to fight fair, they are supposed to win. We as a society benefit from that mentality.

In all fairness, one of the members there got a DUI later on. If you read the details of that case, that is far more disturbing than what happened at the airport. In that case, I'd say throw the book at him.

[blueblood]

We're forgetting one important point. There was really no reason for them to even suspect that the weapon would kill him. Do I think theyw ent to it too fast? Yes? Do I think that they had any intent other than to subdue him and defuse the situation? No.

It's not about getting killed that they use the taser, it's about getting hurt/injured. A knife warrants getting shot from what I've seen coming out of Winnipeg. Would you go to work and want to get a stapler upside the head if you didn't have to?

The alternative to a taser is much much worse.

[Smallc]

It's not about getting killed that they use the taser, it's about getting hurt/injured.

I think you misunderstood what I said. The officers had no reason to believe that the taser would kill him. It wasn't supposed to from what they would have known. The officers were simply using the quickest way possible to diffuse the situation. Maybe they could have used better judgment, I really don't know, but I do know that if they had thought the taser was going to kill him, they wouldn't have used it.

[eyeball]

We're forgetting one important point. There was really no reason for them to even suspect that the weapon would kill him.

Of course there was, the safety of these things were in doubt long before Dziekanski was killed.

Do I think theyw ent to it too fast? Yes? Do I think that they had any intent other than to subdue him and defuse the situation? No.

Who cares what their intent was, they were clearly incompetent as demonstrated by the absolutely piss poor shoddiest workmanship ever captured on video. I definitely think twice now before I call the cops to situations that would normally call for them. I've had two occasions now in which I've questioned whether I should. Both involved domestic disputes one of which included a mentally disturbed individual. Mentally disturbed people stand too great a risk of being killed by cops for me to ignore - I refuse to be a party to it. I finally did phone the cops but not until I called other people first so there would be witnesses to what ever might unfold when they arrived. I never go anywhere without a camera anymore.

There is little that I have heard in the investigation of this incident that changed or altered the sense I got of what happened when I saw the video of it. The depraved attempt at cross examination that the fire chief who testified againt the cops was subjected to certainly didn't reduce my utter contempt for them. Given the cops complete absence of any basic first aid following their actions I think they should be dishonourably discharged and possibly even jailed for criminal negligence.

Edited February 22, 2009 by eyeball

[Smallc]

Of course there was, the safety of these things were in doubt long before Dziekanski was killed.

Did these officers know that? If so, can you prove it?

[eyeball]

Robert Dziekanski died in 2007. Doubts about the safety of Tasers go back anywhere from two to five years or more previous to that.

Ryan is one of nearly 200 people who have died in the last five years after being shot by a Taser stun gun. In June, the U.S. Department of Justice announced that it would review these deaths.

Source (November 18, 2006.)

SAN FRANCISCO—After a week of highly disturbing developments regarding Taser International, Inc., the leading manufacturer and supplier of electronic stun guns used by law enforcement agencies, the American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California (ACLU-NC) and the Western Regional Office of Amnesty International, USA, are urgently calling on local police departments to immediately re-evaluate their use or purchase of the weapons based on safety concerns.

For Immediate Release: January 13, 2004

At least half the reason Dziekanski's death galvanized so many people so quickly is the fact so many were already speaking out about the danger of Tasers. These cops had every reason to believe they could easily kill someone with them. I'm willing to bet my left nut that cops, when they're trained to use these things, are also well indoctrinated by Taser International with all the right talking points on things like "excited delirium" should death occur. They know damn well death is often associated with these things.

[Smallc]

They know damn well death is often associated with these things.

That statement would be completely false. Death is not often associated with them. In the context of deployment numbers, the resulting deaths are very small. From what I know, there is no reason to assume that these officers expected him to die.

[blueblood]

Robert Dziekanski died in 2007. Doubts about the safety of Tasers go back anywhere from two to five years or more previous to that.

At least half the reason Dziekanski's death galvanized so many people so quickly is the fact so many were already speaking out about the danger of Tasers. These cops had every reason to believe they could easily kill someone with them. I'm willing to bet my left nut that cops, when they're trained to use these things, are also well indoctrinated by Taser International with all the right talking points on things like "excited delirium" should death occur. They know damn well death is often associated with these things.

Would you rather have seen RCMP officers injured and the perp getting the Rodney King treatment? They also know death is associated with guns as well. I'd bet my left nut you would love to see RCMP members bruised, beaten, or killed.

[Oleg Bach]

Would you rather have seen RCMP officers injured and the perp getting the Rodney King treatment? They also know death is associated with guns as well. I'd bet my left nut you would love to see RCMP members bruised, beaten, or killed.

There has been a trend in North America not to hire new officers of high intelligence. If your IQ is to high you don't get in. Todays officer is not a peace officer as in the days of old - he is a political enforcer....He has to be able to act without question and must be willing to harm when instructed. I saw the cops in the video.. They were light weights physically and mentally - the way the moved and I just loved the part when one of these second rate henchmen puts his knee on the throat of an unconscious polish hick and suffocates the man to death while he is oblivious and helpless.. real cops just make their presense known with natural authority - and the person usually submits...These are not the brave and fine Royal CANADIAN Mounted Police - These were red neck hicks killing another hick.

[eyeball]

That statement would be completely false. Death is not often associated with them. In the context of deployment numbers, the resulting deaths are very small.

Compared to what, batons, pepper spray, how about net-guns or interpreters?

From what I know, there is no reason to assume that these officers expected him to die.

From what we saw, there is no reason to assume that these officers could tie their own shoes.

[Smallc]

Compared to what, batons, pepper spray, how about net-guns or interpreters?

You would be complaining if they had used any of the first two and probably 3.

[eyeball]

Would you rather have seen RCMP officers injured and the perp getting the Rodney King treatment? They also know death is associated with guns as well. I'd bet my left nut you would love to see RCMP members bruised, beaten, or killed.

I see, Robert Dziekanski's a perp is he? He was also a lazy drunk I hear.

At least Rodney King lived.

[Oleg Bach]

The spoiled and delicate elite must be weak and powerless when it comes to self defense and mutual combat..It sickens me when arm chair critics sit and discuss how to cattle prod those that they needlessly fear. Stick these milk sops into a poor and tough black American neighbourhood and let them learn the ropes of how to get along and how to make friends - and maybe take care of themselves if ever attacked. BUT if there are any men amongst this satin underwear wearing bunch - they should use the power of the mind and character to ward off and defuse violence...instead they hire idots who they expect to shoot - jail - spray - end now electorcute what they feel is a threat - part of this need to control and abuse those in lower socio-ecomomic spheres is boredom that generates sadism - the killing of this poor dumb Pole was sadistic - and the tormenting sissies justify it by saying - what if the poor police officer gets a bruise? The advocates of tazering do not care for the victim nor do they really care for the cops - who are also considered lowly workers.