Robert Dziekanski

[blueblood]

If the guy swung the stapler at someone then it would have justified punching him - or tazering him. He didn't swing it at anyone. And frankly, if I had three buddies I would feel fairly confident I would be able to stop this guy from hitting me with a stapler. It's not too hard for four guys to swarm one and take his stapler away. If you think otherwise I'll give you a stapler, and then you can try and hit me and my three buddies. As soon as you swing, though, we'll jump on you and beat the crap out of you. I don't think you'll even land one blow with your stapler.

They don't know that however. It's just like a pre emptive strike that Israel likes to do.

They say that during a domestic dispute, one little guy can be quite a handful when he's jacked up on adrenaline and enraged. Hence why domestics are so dangerous.

My odds say the perp would land a couple blows. So would I if I felt cornered, enraged, and gone bonkers. You'd be surprised how tough someone could be when the fight part kicks in on the fight/flight.

[eyeball]

You'd be surprised how tough someone could be when the fight part kicks in on the fight/flight.

Yeah, especially when they have a Taser and three of their buddies standing by just in case.

[ironstone]

I did see the video of this incident on MSNBC a week or so ago.It's a horrible thing to see,believe me.Elsewhere in this thread someone mentions that six of the officers involved have been on paid leave for 16 months,and counting!After seeing this video,my sympathy lies with the victim and his family.I've always been a strong supporter of the police but I these days I think less of them.It seems there are more than just a few bad cops out there and often they themselves are almost immune from the laws they are sworn to uphold.What's the most common punishment a police officer recieves?A lengthy suspension....with full pay and benefits,often exceeding a year!Sounds more like a vacation to me.

I believe the victim in this case was tasered,not once,but six times.Why could these officers not make more of an effort to calm him down?Do they have no training for just such a situation?Maybe they were trigger-happy and anxious to use their weapons.

The guy was going to live with his mother that he had not seen in years for crying out loud!Being in an airport makes me stressed out ,so I can only imagine what it was like for this poor man,unable to communicate and obviously scared.

I doubt anything good will come of this and the officers will milk the situation for more vacation time.

[blueblood]

Yeah, especially when they have a Taser and three of their buddies standing by just in case.

Shhh adults are talking

[Argus]

They don't know that however. It's just like a pre emptive strike that Israel likes to do.

They say that during a domestic dispute, one little guy can be quite a handful when he's jacked up on adrenaline and enraged. Hence why domestics are so dangerous.

My odds say the perp would land a couple blows. So would I if I felt cornered, enraged, and gone bonkers. You'd be surprised how tough someone could be when the fight part kicks in on the fight/flight.

You have to be wary, but as a cop that's the chances you take. I think four guys can handle one. And I think eight hands can grab two arms and stop him from hitting anyone pretty darned fast.

In the end, cops get paid - and paid very well - to take chances to to roll around on the floor with people. You don't like it, don't be a cop.

[blueblood]

You have to be wary, but as a cop that's the chances you take. I think four guys can handle one. And I think eight hands can grab two arms and stop him from hitting anyone pretty darned fast.

In the end, cops get paid - and paid very well - to take chances to to roll around on the floor with people. You don't like it, don't be a cop.

So they're not allowed to take the precautions they are allowed to in order to make their job safer?

So your saying because they get paid well, they deserve to get hurt and smacked around whenever a dangerous situation presents itself.

Why should they get hurt when they have the means at their disposal not to?

They don't know what the perp is capable of, ask any member how it's like dealing with somebody who has snapped. If you don't think they get injured on the job, your mistaken.

It's not the numbers that matter, it's the fact that one of them could have gotten injured when they had the means to prevent that.

[Oleg Bach]

"A cops job should be made safer" Ha! That's like saying that a soldiers job should be made safe..that's the very nature of both professions is that they are both very risky ways of living. What are we to do - just send out the cops to kill every last person that is a percieved threat - or someone they personally don't like the looks of......we could take this approach and make sure that every last police officer never suffers a scrap or a bruise ever..May as well get law enforcement a thousand choppers with long range tazers and just zap any unsavory characters like bugs in a bowl.

[Slim MacSquinty]

This incident is a black eye on an honourable branch of the public service for a number of reasons, four lazy cops arrive at a disturbance, being impatient they asses the situation for perhaps five seconds and attack with force. Not satisfactorily subdued by one or two taser jolts while writhing on the floor they hit him three more times.

Under questoning they claim to have followed proceedure, though clearly they did not, they were not even aware he could not speak english though there were several people standing there who could have filled them in on this trivial bit of information.

Worst of all they refuse to assume any responsibility and try to smear this poor fellows character. Pitiful really.

Hope they never come into my office when I'm in the middle of attaching several pieces of paper together.

Oh and to follow along on some of the logic in this thread, if all measures are acceptable to keep cops from harm then why do we pay them so much, statistically it is more dangerous to be a farmer, construction worker or factory labourer, why not transfer the danger pay to any of these less noble occupations.

Edited March 2, 2009 by Slim MacSquinty

[Argus]

So they're not allowed to take the precautions they are allowed to in order to make their job safer?

If by "taking precautions" you mean punching someone in the head because you think he might swing at you - then no.

And as I've already said, using a tazer should be considered like a long distance punch to the head.

[Argus]

Worst of all they refuse to assume any responsibility and try to smear this poor fellows character. Pitiful really.

Smear his reputation? He acted like a moron. Too bloody bad if he was waiting around for hours. I had to wait ten hours for my aged mother to be treated for a broken limb at the hospital. Should I have started throwing furniture around?

When four guys in cop uniforms approach you, don't shout at them and walk away. They tend not to like that.

[eyeball]

When four guys in cop uniforms approach you, don't shout at them and walk away. They tend not to like that.

That's not what he did though, he indicated his compliance and walked to the spot they pointed to, were they then proceeded to murder him. You probably had your eye's closed, your fingers in your ears and were singing la la la la during that part of the video.

[ToadBrother]

Smear his reputation? He acted like a moron. Too bloody bad if he was waiting around for hours. I had to wait ten hours for my aged mother to be treated for a broken limb at the hospital. Should I have started throwing furniture around?

When four guys in cop uniforms approach you, don't shout at them and walk away. They tend not to like that.

It's not a matter of what cops like. We aren't slaves and they aren't masters. The man was confused, didn't know the language and had basically been ignored for hours.

The cops had the man on the ground within thirty seconds of arriving. Now no one can tell me that this was enough time to adequately size-up the situation. The video shows the cops pretty much ignoring the Tazer rules that were in place, shows them doing nothing to communicate with him, or any kind of meaningful assessment.

But that's not the worst part of this. There's a helluva lot of collusion to hide the truth of what happened, from the attempt to keep the video, to the officers in question basically getting a chance to get their stories to jive with each other, to a pretty inept attempt by the RCMP to paint Dziekanski as some sort of alcoholic misanthropic criminal who basically deserved what he got.

The video doesn't lie. The RCMP officers did not follow their own procedures. Not that it matters, because they've basically been let off the hook anyways.

One law for the cops, one law for the rest of us, and stun guns to force compliance (as the cops at any given moment define compliance).

[jdobbin]

When four guys in cop uniforms approach you, don't shout at them and walk away. They tend not to like that.

But being tasered five times?

[bush_cheney2004]

But being tasered five times?

...better than being shot once.

[ToadBrother]

...better than being shot once.

Not in this case.

I have no idea why people are even defending these cops. They violated their own code of conduct and have repeatedly given testimony contrary to the evidence. You know, it is possible to be a "law and order" conservative without being nothing more than a apologist for police misconduct.

[Oleg Bach]

...better than being shot once.

Depends on where...saw a clip of some swigaroe of a female cop screams to her comrads of the cattle prod...who have just tazered a big scarey drunk who is now stunned and still....."Hit him again" - tazer him again...she was clearly getting her jollies... what ever happened to the long leaded 4 ft trudgeon ---- give the guy a crack on the sholder, hand or arm and break some bones...that would be safer than the death zap...

[jdobbin]

Not in this case.

Exactly. Still ended in death.

And then the testimony that the officers made completely were refuted by the video.

I have no idea why people are even defending these cops. They violated their own code of conduct and have repeatedly given testimony contrary to the evidence. You know, it is possible to be a "law and order" conservative without being nothing more than a apologist for police misconduct.

Some people defend the police no matter what the circumstances.

I think police have a very difficult job and most do it very well. However, it is hard to get one's head around what went wrong how police responded in this case. Even long time supporters are wincing when they hear testimony where the officers state that Dziekanski is fighting officers when clearly he is on the ground.

[Oleg Bach]

All I know is what I saw in the rough video. The man is out cold and a cop has his knee on an unconscious mans wind pipe - the knee killed him - not the tazer.

[bush_cheney2004]

All I know is what I saw in the rough video. The man is out cold and a cop has his knee on an unconscious mans wind pipe - the knee killed him - not the tazer.

Could be...whatever...if he's dead...he's dead. Robert Dziekanski is not the first person (or the last) to die because of law enforcement actions, right or wrong. Why is this case receiving so much more attention compared to many such cases against...say...First Nations individuals?

Is this really about the Tazer?

...don't Taze me 'Bro!

Edited March 3, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[Oleg Bach]

Could be...whatever...if he's dead...he's dead. Robert Dziekanski is not the first person (or the last) to die because of law enforcement actions, right or wrong. Why is this case receiving so much more attention compared to many such cases against...say...First Nations individuals?

Is this really about the Tazer?

...don't Taze me 'Bro!

What was disturbing is that Dziekanski did the Three Stoodges on the floor running routine spinning like a wounded deer..it was graphic. This is not about the tazer - this is the fact that in the states it used to be that if you had a high I Q - law enforcement wanted you to join up...Then a policy arose - that you could not be to smart - This is a reflection of the quality of our governments - they have gone down. Dumb rulers need even dumber enforcers...A cop out of the past would have settled this matter using his mind and character - you get what you pay for - scandal and shame - but dumb rulers are to stupid to feel shame...so we have a mexican stand off - I say hand out tazers to Parliment and Congress and let them go at it.....This as a society decays becomes more utlitarian more stupid and more Orwellian -- cattle prods...that's what a tazer is.

[bush_cheney2004]

.....I say hand out tazers to Parliment and Congress and let them go at it.....This as a society decays becomes more utlitarian more stupid and more Orwellian -- cattle prods...that's what a tazer is.

Right...back in the 80's...before long range Tazers...we had 50,000 volt stun guns. Great fun at parties! But the cops wanted something less lethal than a handgun with standoff range, and Yankee ingenuity responded....the TAZER!

Nobody reads the product manual anymore...right? If one Tazer is good....five must be better. RCMP training let's each Mountie decide when to Taze....it's so much fun.

Edited March 3, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[Oleg Bach]

Right...back in the 80's...before long range Tazers...we had 50,000 volt stun guns. Great fun at parties! But the cops wanted something less lethal than a handgun with standoff range, and Yankee ingenuity responded....the TAZER!

Nobody reads the product manual anymore...right? If one Tazer is good....five must be better. RCMP training let's each Mountie decide when to Taze....it's so much fun.

There is not proper training - or good mode of operation in the "take down" - The cops should be well rehearsed....One medium zap to stun the individual then a rush forward and tackle - four cops - each assigned an arm or leg....It has to be rapid...You just don't shock the guy for fun untill his heart stops and he falls down - You made a point - imagine getting slugged in the jaw...at that brief second you are not there - at that moment you are helpless - that's when old fashioned human force should come in - they need a choreogrpher...zap snag and down.

[bush_cheney2004]

..... You made a point - imagine getting slugged in the jaw...at that brief second you are not there - at that moment you are helpless - that's when old fashioned human force should come in - they need a choreogrpher...zap snag and down.

Training...sure. Who was the on-scene commander / supervisor. Was it like Ghostbusters when Venkman says:

"Alright.... this chick is TOAST! ....Let's show this prehistoric bitch how we do things downtown!"

[Oleg Bach]

Training...sure. Who was the on-scene commander / supervisor. Was it like Ghostbusters when Venkman says:

"Alright.... this chick is TOAST! ....Let's show this prehistoric bitch how we do things downtown!"

You gotta rehearse and execute - you have to be a pro and get your skill levels up - do the time..and play fine...How come we know this stuff?

[bush_cheney2004]

You gotta rehearse and execute - you have to be a pro and get your skill levels up - do the time..and play fine...How come we know this stuff?

Because we are old......youth is wasted on the young. But we can still laugh our asses off.