bush_cheney2004 Posted February 22, 2009 Report Posted February 22, 2009 ......most westerners did not have parents who witnessed the collapse of civilzation..it effected me...to see him cry. Not any more....our job (in Patton's words)...is to make the other goddamn civilizations collapse. Eastern Europe sure as hell doesn't want to return to the bad old days. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Oleg Bach Posted February 22, 2009 Report Posted February 22, 2009 Not any more....our job (in Patton's words)...is to make the other goddamn civilizations collapse. Eastern Europe sure as hell doesn't want to return to the bad old days. True....the differnence between my fathers' era and ours where a "fire fight" is a big deal - were as my dad submerged in battle (Stalingrad) was an unescapable fiery hell...They just don't have that intensity in war as they did then - that was war - this is childs play. Quote
Army Guy Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 This thread is going to be here for a long long time...we're going to be stuck in Afghanistan forever, we can just keep changing the definition of victory to justify all of our dead. The reason we are in Afganistan has not changed, nor has the victory conditions, atleast not here on the ground. And while alot of politics are played with different subjectys , the reasons remain the same. I just want to piont out that it has been the minority of Canadians that have support our military and mission all along...It has been our soldiers, families, friends that have paid the price, and we have done so with out regrets...with out need to justify.. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
interiorboy Posted February 25, 2009 Report Posted February 25, 2009 It is correct that we can't win this war at least not in such a short period of time. We are fighting a violent religious group that is based throughout the world. Like in the West Bank or Gaza strip there are many who go there to fight, die for their virgins in heaven not just the ones that grew up there. There is also the problem of the locals brainwashing their children that the Great Satan and their allies are to be hated and destroyed. The best way to end this is to focus heavily on educating their children esp their women. Once a generation of women know what it's like not to be oppressed there is no way that half of the pop will go back to being oppressed. Once land belong to muslims it is perminantly muslim land, including here, so our fightn is not just in Afgh but here as well. They did try to intro Sharia Law here in Canada. They out breed us. How long before the religious zealots cause problems here? Quote IN THE 60s AND 70s WE FOUGHT THE ESTABLISHMENT. TODAY WE ARE THE ESTABLISHMENT the establishment still tries to violate freedom
Sir Bandelot Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Posted March 3, 2009 Prime Minister Stephen Harper concedes the fact- http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...0303?hub=Canada Harper told the U.S. television network that the Afghan government needs to be able to manage the persistent Taliban insurgency that rages across swaths of the country. "We're not going to win this war just by staying," Harper said. "Quite frankly, we are not going to ever defeat the insurgency. Afghanistan has probably had - my reading of Afghanistan history (is) it's probably had an insurgency forever of some kind. "What has to happen in Afghanistan is we have to have an Afghan government that is capable of managing that insurgency." --- Maybe someone should have given our political leaders a history lesson, BEFORE they have the power to make decisions that send our troops into harms way, costing great destruction of human lives, property and wealth! All for what now, Stephen please tell us. Quote
M.Dancer Posted March 3, 2009 Report Posted March 3, 2009 ---Maybe someone should have given our political leaders a history lesson, BEFORE they have the power to make decisions that send our troops into harms way, costing great destruction of human lives, property and wealth! All for what now, Stephen please tell us. What Harper said, that the Afghans need to be able to do the job, while it may be an epiphany to you it has been the plan from day one. From the earliest days the impetus on training and coordination with the afghans so that they can field professional soldiers and police has been a priority. No one with half a brain ever thought that the Taliban could be defeated simpoly by a foreign military presence. Defeat of the Taliban will be on at least 3-4 fronts. 1)Military (including major afghan elements) 2)Economic-rebuilding the economy so that the poor do not have to turn to the warlords for sustanance. 3)Political-isolating the extremist Taliban from the soft Taleban. 4)Pakistan-Sealing off Pakistan tribal areas and helping Islamabad reasert control over those areas. Harper hasn't conceded a fact but rather articulated a the long term strategy which has been in place from the beginning. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted March 3, 2009 Report Posted March 3, 2009 Hold on there pardner...you are making the distinction between the reasons to die. Once you are serving, that kind of objectivity takes on a completely different twist, from fratracide to winning the Congressional Medal of Honor or Victoria Cross. There is a healthy fatalism that sets in to keep you from going nuts.....hence the unit bonding and sometimes outright disdain for the rubes who sent them there or worst yet, the rubes who protest them going when told they have a mission to accomplish. This will always be a good reason to keep our armed forces small. The state should be afraid of the people. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted March 3, 2009 Report Posted March 3, 2009 Harper hasn't conceded a fact but rather articulated a the long term strategy which has been in place from the beginning. Taliban Steve knew the war was un-winnable right from the get go? Okay. Would you please cite a 2001 - 2002 era source of him acknowledging that the war in Afghanistan is un-winnable? All I seem to recall are quotes of him saying the opposite and that anyone who said otherwise was with the Taliban. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted March 3, 2009 Report Posted March 3, 2009 (edited) Taliban Steve knew the war was un-winnable right from the get go? Okay. No but thanks for conceding you don't undersdtand or follow. Would you please cite a 2001 - 2002 era source of him acknowledging that the war in Afghanistan is un-winnable? I can't because it doesn't exist. The war is completely winnable but as Harper articulated, cannot be won by military force alone. Even Churchill understood that the war with the Axis was not winnable without the political and diplomatic efforts. Why do people have a hard time understanding this? Willful stupidity? A burning desire to see us and the Afgans fail? Edited March 3, 2009 by M.Dancer Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted March 3, 2009 Report Posted March 3, 2009 No but thanks for conceding you don't undersdtand or follow.I can't because it doesn't exist. The war is completely winnable but as Harper articulated, cannot be won by military force alone. Even Churchill understood that the war with the Axis was not winnable without the political and diplomatic efforts. Why do people have a hard time understanding this? Willful stupidity? A burning desire to see us and the Afgans fail? Political and diplomatic efforts are going to win this war. Right. Its not a matter of understanding Morris its a matter of utter incredulity, backed by the fact we're exactly where I thought we'd be 8 years ago, bogged down in a quagmire with no end in sight. Where does this burning desire to fail come from? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted March 3, 2009 Report Posted March 3, 2009 Where does this burning desire to fail come from? I'm sure some serious self study coupled with a thorough process of sefk actualization will help you find out. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Progressive Tory Posted March 3, 2009 Report Posted March 3, 2009 Look at Bush and his gang - they will spend the rest of their lives quietly laying in the dark knowing shame and feeling cowardice and guilt for killing - direct or indirect - killing is killing. They should not be allowed to lay quietly in the dark unless it's in a prison cell. The Truth Movement has proven that that the Bush Adminstration either plotted or at least turned their backs on the so-called surprise attacks on the Twin Towers. But what are the deaths of a few Americans if it allows you to advance your Imperialistic agenda? They are murderers, and not just of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghans, but also thousands of their own citizens. They'd better hope there is no God, because they will be going straight to hell. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
M.Dancer Posted March 3, 2009 Report Posted March 3, 2009 The Truth Movement has proven that that the Bush Adminstration either plotted or at least turned their backs on the so-called surprise attacks on the Twin Towers. Tr00ther alert!! Tr00ther alert!! Tr00ther alert!! Man the Tinfoil hats!!!! Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted March 3, 2009 Report Posted March 3, 2009 I'm sure some serious self study coupled with a thorough process of sefk actualization will help you find out. That's cute, but I was asking about YOUR desire to fail. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted March 3, 2009 Report Posted March 3, 2009 That's cute, but I was asking about YOUR desire to fail. I don't think we share the same desires. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Progressive Tory Posted March 3, 2009 Report Posted March 3, 2009 We know where the roach nests are and this is the opportunity to exterminate. So you do know where the roach nests are? That's good to know, because the last time you came close, soldiers were told to stand down. Bush never wanted Bin Laden. His partner in crime could very well turn on him by turning him in. The West has made an absolute mess of things, and now to suggest that we can just walk away is irresponsible. Obama is taking a new direction, by building bridges with former 'enemies' toward common goals. Russia is now cooperating and China is suspected to do the same. First US cargo for Afghanistan crosses Russia Of course numbnuts Mackay isn't helping with his blustering to land a job with NATO and fabricating an 'enemy attack'. Ignatieff has told Obama that if the U.S. needs more time, he would be open to staying the course. I never supported the War but also know that we don't have the option of just walking away. It is what it is. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Progressive Tory Posted March 3, 2009 Report Posted March 3, 2009 The Taliban will be asked to participate in the government, that is what Mr. Karzai has been saying for months. Sharia law will be put in place, as was just allowed once again in Pakistan. We have done nothing, except reinforce their mistrust and anger towards the west. Exactly. Poll of Afghans Shows Drop In Support for U.S. Mission "The poll, the fourth conducted in Afghanistan since 2005 by ABC News and its media partners, also shows plummeting support for President Hamid Karzai and the Afghan government... At the same time, ratings of U.S. forces have declined precipitously; 32 percent said U.S. and coalition forces are performing well, down from 68 percent in 2005. And fewer than half of the respondents, 42 percent, have confidence in coalition forces to provide security in their areas. About eight in 10 called coalition airstrikes unacceptable, viewing the risk to innocent civilians as greater than the value of these raids in fighting the Taliban and other anti-government insurgents. More blame U.S. and coalition forces for poor targeting than blame the Taliban for keeping assets among civilians (41 percent to 28 percent); 27 percent said both sides shared the blame." We can't just leave, but we have to change the mission. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Progressive Tory Posted March 3, 2009 Report Posted March 3, 2009 Explain to me, how a country with a continue 30 year history of warfare from 1979 to 2009 cannot raise a fighting force to defend itself? Western interference and the fact that they have oil. It's been mostly foreigners fighting each other on their land. The U.S. put the Taliban in government and trained Bin Ladin. They had to know it wouldn't work. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
M.Dancer Posted March 3, 2009 Report Posted March 3, 2009 The U.S. put the Taliban in government and trained Bin Ladin. Tr00ther alert!! Tr00ther alert!! Tr00ther alert!! Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 3, 2009 Report Posted March 3, 2009 So you do know where the roach nests are? That's good to know, because the last time you came close, soldiers were told to stand down. Bush never wanted Bin Laden. His partner in crime could very well turn on him by turning him in. OK...then why didn't Canada get him instead? The West has made an absolute mess of things, and now to suggest that we can just walk away is irresponsible. The "West" can do as it pleases. Obama is taking a new direction, by building bridges with former 'enemies' toward common goals. Russia is now cooperating and China is suspected to do the same. Nothing like a Predator missile attack to spell out "cooperation". Of course numbnuts Mackay isn't helping with his blustering to land a job with NATO and fabricating an 'enemy attack'. NATO is a Canadian joint....charter member. Ignatieff has told Obama that if the U.S. needs more time, he would be open to staying the course. I never supported the War but also know that we don't have the option of just walking away. It is what it is. Ignatieff is the numbnut opposition and poodle in training....he is what he is. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Progressive Tory Posted March 3, 2009 Report Posted March 3, 2009 Tr00ther alert!!Tr00ther alert!! Tr00ther alert!! What's a troother alert? I watched Farenheit 9/11 and have read numerous articles, then based my opinions on the ones that made the most sense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_o...Osama_bin_Laden Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 3, 2009 Report Posted March 3, 2009 What's a troother alert? I watched Farenheit 9/11 and have read numerous articles, then based my opinions on the ones that made the most sense. That's even funnier! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Progressive Tory Posted March 3, 2009 Report Posted March 3, 2009 1. OK...then why didn't Canada get him instead? 2. The "West" can do as it pleases. 3. Nothing like a Predator missile attack to spell out "cooperation". 4. NATO is a Canadian joint....charter member. 5. Ignatieff is the numbnut opposition and poodle in training....he is what he is. 1. Harper put us under U.S. command. 2. Actually they can't. They don't have enough money right now to launch a successful water balloon attack, thanks to GW. 3. Predator missile attack? Where? When? 4. Exactly and Mackay has thown his hat into the ring for the secretary-general job. Hopefully, they don't hire blustering idiots and MacKay does not set the bar for Canadian intelligence. 5. Poodle in training? That's the best you've got? I'm sorry you don't like Obama and the Republican's are now pinning their hopes on Bobby Jindal, but the days of Bush stupidity are over, thank gawd. You should give him a chance, unless you're like Rush Limbaugh and want your country to fail. I admire your patriotism. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
M.Dancer Posted March 3, 2009 Report Posted March 3, 2009 That's even funnier! It's only funny if it's your senile uncle or aunt spouting tr00therisms....otherwise it's just sad. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
jdobbin Posted March 4, 2009 Report Posted March 4, 2009 Calgary Herald editorial. http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/just+thi...1805/story.html Harper's words were also discouraging for soldiers in the field, many of whom sup-port the mission keenly, believing it is doing good work for the Afghan people. The prime minister's admission that an Afghan win, at least as the word is customarily understood, might be beyond the allied reach serves only to diminish this enthusiasm. Those not in the game to win, are not really in the game.Finally, bereaved parents of slain Canadian soldiers will take no comfort from hearing they died in an unwinnable war. There has been similar stuff from Harper's base on radio and other newspapers. Quote
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