Nfld Liberal will vote against the budget

[Wild Bill]

oh please – continually playing the trumped up alienation card from a province that sheepishly votes provincially/federally as a Conservative block, election after election after election.

surely sensitivities can’t be that heightened to the point where ideological distinctions elicit claims of fostering disunity.

Sheepishly? There you go again! You aren't merely pointing out an ideological difference. You are being demeaning, if not rude! You sound like a poster on "rubble.ca".

I've known many Albertans for years. Sensitivities with an appreciable number of them ARE that high! Given what they've had to put up with for literally decades, it is a logical resentment.

Albertans do not vote Tory because they are sheep. They do so because Liberals consistently demonstrated over the years that they didn't give a damn for the West except as a 'wallet'. You've implied in some of your posts that that's old news and they should just get over it.

What a trite thing to say, considering just weeks ago the Liberals were signing a coalition agreement that was a total kick in the head to Western Canadians! Old news? Hardly! It's more like the same old news, every day, that never changes.

If you ever run for politics I suggest you stay local. Your ideas don't sound like a 'big tent' approach.

[Smallc]

And those jerks wonder why the country is ripping itself apart

Its not. Some of you may talk about it, but it doesn't make it anywhere near reality. There's nothing to support the idea that Canada is ripping itself apart.

[Molly]

Bill..... ooh.

Yes, sensitivities are that high, and not without good reason...

... but the consistency of that vote is largely sheep-thinking based.

The west (including BC and the Gappers) has lots of reason to distrust any government dominated by 'east of the lakes', because sheer weight of numbers, and interests that are inconsistent with those of the population bases mean they've been screwed over time and time and time again, usually with Central Canada either oblivious or cheerleading, and NEP is the big punctuation mark that made collars smoke well beyond Alberta borders.

That explains (some, but not all), but does not justify a notable lack of nuance in Alberta-self-identified politics. If it were so, then those other three western provinces would be equally monochromatic, but they are not.

NEP has been milked to death-- it's 30 years ago, after all-- and doesn't justify thoughtlessness, hypocricy, blind ignorance, bandwagonism and general offensiveness-- TODAY. That's something else entirely. (A dirty habit?)

It is completely fair to suggest that one provinces consistent, long, long-standing monopolitic= SHEEP.

[waldo]

Sheepishly? There you go again! You aren't merely pointing out an ideological difference. You are being demeaning, if not rude! You sound like a poster on "rubble.ca".

I've known many Albertans for years. Sensitivities with an appreciable number of them ARE that high! Given what they've had to put up with for literally decades, it is a logical resentment.

Albertans do not vote Tory because they are sheep. They do so because Liberals consistently demonstrated over the years that they didn't give a damn for the West except as a 'wallet'. You've implied in some of your posts that that's old news and they should just get over it.

What a trite thing to say, considering just weeks ago the Liberals were signing a coalition agreement that was a total kick in the head to Western Canadians! Old news? Hardly! It's more like the same old news, every day, that never changes.

If you ever run for politics I suggest you stay local. Your ideas don't sound like a 'big tent' approach.

in the spirit of your kumbaya big-tent inclusiveness I would hope you could elaborate further on the reasons for that so-called Alberta “alienation” – their, as you say, “high sensitivities”. Seriously, let’s open up that same earlier request I made to you. Just the top 5 – today, relative to other provinces, just how is Alberta so hard done by… what uniquely sets the Alberta alienation apart? And yes – NEP has been milked to death – it was 30 years ago, notwithstanding accepted analysis that suggests the perceived impacts had other significant domestic/global contributors.

I see it gets better – how was the Liberal/NDP Coalition a, as you say, “total kick in the head to Western Canadians”?

[Alta4ever]

Bill..... ooh.

Yes, sensitivities are that high, and not without good reason...

... but the consistency of that vote is largely sheep-thinking based.

The west (including BC and the Gappers) has lots of reason to distrust any government dominated by 'east of the lakes', because sheer weight of numbers, and interests that are inconsistent with those of the population bases mean they've been screwed over time and time and time again, usually with Central Canada either oblivious or cheerleading, and NEP is the big punctuation mark that made collars smoke well beyond Alberta borders.

That explains (some, but not all), but does not justify a notable lack of nuance in Alberta-self-identified politics. If it were so, then those other three western provinces would be equally monochromatic, but they are not.

NEP has been milked to death-- it's 30 years ago, after all-- and doesn't justify thoughtlessness, hypocricy, blind ignorance, bandwagonism and general offensiveness-- TODAY. That's something else entirely. (A dirty habit?)

It is completely fair to suggest that one provinces consistent, long, long-standing monopolitic= SHEEP.

Is that really so liberal ontario and Bloc Quebec, Baaaaa.

[Smallc]

I think that the divide in Canada is not really east - west, its simply that people have interpreted it that way. The real divide, much like in the US, is between conservatives and liberals. In truth, the divides are even organized much the same way. The coasts are liberal, the middle west is conservative and the middle east is a mix. The divide is also very much an urban rural thing in many cases.

The east west divide really exists because of the difference in politics between the two regions, not because of the regions themselves.

[Alta4ever]

I think that the divide in Canada is not really east - west, its simply that people have interpreted it that way. The real divide, much like in the US, is between conservatives and liberals. In truth, the divides are even organized much the same way. The coasts are liberal, the middle west is conservative and the middle east is a mix. The divide is also very much an urban rural thing in many cases.

The east west divide really exists because of the difference in politics between the two regions, not because of the regions themselves.

I think that it is very regional as the Altantic provinces have themselves been alienated and felt largely ignored by Ottawa.

Our federal government has shown itself to have two priorities no matter who is in power.

1. Quebec

2. Ontario

Every other province is either ignored, or used to fulfill those two prorities.

[Smallc]

Our federal government has shown itself to have two priorities no matter who is in power.

1. Quebec

2. Ontario

Sorry, but I don't live in either of those provinces and never have and I still don't see it that way. Maybe its because I realize that two provinces containing about 2/3 of the Canadian population should get about 2/3 of the governments attention. Perhaps its also because I try not to think of myself as a victim of Canada, but rather a participant in it. I love this country, and I love Ontario and Quebec.

As an aside the way many westerner and easterners talk about Quebec and Ontario reminds me very much about how many rural Americans talk about New York and California.

Edited January 31, 2009 by Smallc

[DrGreenthumb]

I will not be voting for the national party nor will I be supporting it, I will vote for the small c conservative that runs in my riding. If no such option exists I may just stay at home.

Are you admitting that you vote to elect your local candidate rather than elect a prime minister? Please tell me you just admitted that Canadians do not elect Prime Ministers, they elect their local MP's who in turn vote to decide who will lead parliament. In other words coalition governments are absolutely democratic and our system is designed to accomidate them. In other words the Conservatives are guilty of propagating a huge deception over the Canadian people, they are liars, and prove it every chance they get.

[Progressive Tory]

Back to the original topic, Michael Ignatieff has said that he is allowing his MPs to voice their opinions, because they are the ones who will have to face their constituents; not him.

If they don't speak out about the 1.6 billion dollars that was taken from Newfoundland's equalization money to pay for other things, they could probably never go home again.

Remember, the budget hasn't been voted on yet.

What I'm finding very funny from Conservative supporters, is that Michael Ignatieff will have to share the 'Blame' for this budget. If it's so good, why aren't they say he will share the 'Glory'.

[Topaz]

Back to the original topic, Michael Ignatieff has said that he is allowing his MPs to voice their opinions, because they are the ones who will have to face their constituents; not him.

If they don't speak out about the 1.6 billion dollars that was taken from Newfoundland's equalization money to pay for other things, they could probably never go home again.

Remember, the budget hasn't been voted on yet.

What I'm finding very funny from Conservative supporters, is that Michael Ignatieff will have to share the 'Blame' for this budget. If it's so good, why aren't they say he will share the 'Glory'.

I wondered how Iggy was going to handle the Libs that were going to vote against it. Iggy was smart to let them vote their way because it shows he's open-minded, not controlled freak. I would think the amends may changed their minds though, that is, if it corrects the problem for NFLD.

[Wild Bill]

Are you admitting that you vote to elect your local candidate rather than elect a prime minister? Please tell me you just admitted that Canadians do not elect Prime Ministers, they elect their local MP's who in turn vote to decide who will lead parliament. In other words coalition governments are absolutely democratic and our system is designed to accomidate them. In other words the Conservatives are guilty of propagating a huge deception over the Canadian people, they are liars, and prove it every chance they get.

This argument keeps coming up and has been beaten to death. It's nitpicking over the technical details of the process.

News Flash! No party goes into an election without having ALREADY chosen its leader! They don't wait to see which party has a majority to THEN vote in the Prime Minister by the elected MPs!

From the perspective of THE AVERAGE CANADIAN (who you keep ignoring with your argument) when an election is called he clearly knows who are the party leaders and who could end up being the Prime Minister. That influences his choice.

Yes, a coalition would have been democratic but only in a unique and nitpicking way that would have been a shock to every ordinary Canadian. Polls consistently showed that if the Coalitionistas had succeeded the majority of ordinary Canadians would have hated their guts for it!

I can see the Coalition supporters in my mind's eye standing outside every polling station, waving a Rule Book at all the pissed off voter streaming past them to vote to punish the Coalition for usurping their right to pick their own government. Yes, technically no such thing would have happened but that's NOT how the average voter would have interpreted it!

Odds are that those Coalitionistas outside the polling booths would have been spat upon by many of those voters.

[bush_cheney2004]

....As an aside the way many westerner and easterners talk about Quebec and Ontario reminds me very much about how many rural Americans talk about New York and California.

Well...there you go....must be true if "Americans" do it too.

As an aside, why is the crazy lady still providing LSQ (sign language) during Question Period when closed captioning is available?

[Wild Bill]

Bill..... ooh.

Yes, sensitivities are that high, and not without good reason...

... but the consistency of that vote is largely sheep-thinking based.

The west (including BC and the Gappers) has lots of reason to distrust any government dominated by 'east of the lakes', because sheer weight of numbers, and interests that are inconsistent with those of the population bases mean they've been screwed over time and time and time again, usually with Central Canada either oblivious or cheerleading, and NEP is the big punctuation mark that made collars smoke well beyond Alberta borders.

That explains (some, but not all), but does not justify a notable lack of nuance in Alberta-self-identified politics. If it were so, then those other three western provinces would be equally monochromatic, but they are not.

NEP has been milked to death-- it's 30 years ago, after all-- and doesn't justify thoughtlessness, hypocricy, blind ignorance, bandwagonism and general offensiveness-- TODAY. That's something else entirely. (A dirty habit?)

It is completely fair to suggest that one provinces consistent, long, long-standing monopolitic= SHEEP.

Well, to me 'ovine accusations' only suggest that there is no good reason for the western popular view. My years as a salesman lead me to disagree.

If a brand consistently ticks off customers for years those customers usually lose confidence. Take the American car industry, for instance. For some decades the market has seen Toyota get a reputation for needing less maintenance and repair for a longer life. Domestics got a reputation for poor quality control. We'd hear black humour jokes about union worksmanship like 'Bash to fit. Paint to hide!'

In the late 70's and 80's it was obviously true! Is it still true today? It doesn't appear so. Anyone who has bought a late model domestic can see that the quality for the most part is back.

Yet domestics still have a perception problem. Understandably so! If a customer is 'burned' it's not enough to tell him "Ah, that was years ago! Forget about it! Give me your money today! Trust me!"

That's just not human nature. Once a pattern has been established you can't tell someone, you have to SHOW them!

Before the Liberals can make any strides in regaining Western support they have to SHOW Westerners that they will support them! While it may be true that to really do that they need to get back in power but nothing's stopping them from making the effort to be more supportive today. So far they've done nothing in that vein. In fact, some of what they've said and done implies the opposite.

I find Alberta voting as a bloc for the Tories perfectly logical, not simply an emotional sheep-like reaction. What would be illogical is to give the Liberals another chance that is unearned!

[DrGreenthumb]

I can see the Coalition supporters in my mind's eye standing outside every polling station, waving a Rule Book at all the pissed off voter streaming past them to vote to punish the Coalition for usurping their right to pick their own government. Yes, technically no such thing would have happened but that's NOT how the average voter would have interpreted it!

Odds are that those Coalitionistas outside the polling booths would have been spat upon by many of those voters.

Because the Conservative party and their supporters have been intentionally misleading and outright lying to the public. Keep lying but the people will see through you.

[Wild Bill]

in the spirit of your kumbaya big-tent inclusiveness I would hope you could elaborate further on the reasons for that so-called Alberta “alienation” – their, as you say, “high sensitivities”. Seriously, let’s open up that same earlier request I made to you. Just the top 5 – today, relative to other provinces, just how is Alberta so hard done by… what uniquely sets the Alberta alienation apart? And yes – NEP has been milked to death – it was 30 years ago, notwithstanding accepted analysis that suggests the perceived impacts had other significant domestic/global contributors.

I see it gets better – how was the Liberal/NDP Coalition a, as you say, “total kick in the head to Western Canadians”?

http://www2.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/...11-118583d08a9f

http://www.troymedia.com/NewsBeats/Politic...2/TMC121008.htm

Those were just two after a quick google on the West and the Coalition.

Here's some on Western alienation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_alienation

We start with Sir John A MacDonald imposing discriminatory freight rates and tariffs that favoured Central Canada and locked the Prairies out of manufacturing and into a grain economy that favoured the East. Later we see the NEP. In the 90's we see the 'Salmon War' off B.C. where the feds left the west coast fishing industry high and dry till finally the fishermen there took an American ferry hostage for 3 days.

There's also Quebec favouritism under the Equalization Act. Let's not forget Mulroney and his awarding of the CF-18 maintenance contract to Quebec when the best and best priced bid came from Manitoba, an act that ignited the flame that was the fledgling Reform Party.

I like this one:

http://www.canadian-politics.com/constitut...est_essay.shtml

When Martin was campaigning in 2004, in his visits to the West was an often repeated statement that his leadership would be a failure if Western angst were not cured. However as his fortunes in the polls sank he reverted to Alberta bashing as a means to protect eastern seats. The political reality was he may gain 1 seat by playing to western interests, but he could gain 10 seats in Ontario by casting himself as a protector of a national health system against the vile Alberta government.

That's enough to get started. Before you just blow it off (likely in a snide manner, it would appear) you might keep in mind that it's not enough to convince me. You have to convince the majority of Western Canadians!

Go ahead, scold them too! Tell them their feelings are old news!

That oughta work REAL good!

Edited January 31, 2009 by Wild Bill

[Molly]

Then I have to come back to BC, Saskatchewan and Manitoba being politically quite different from Alberta.

They are every bit as western, and are every bit as familiar with the 'horse for me and and a rabbit for you' treatment that lesser population groups can expect (maybe moreso). Yet all three exhibit a great deal more political nuance than 'Conservative good, Liberal bad. Ugh!', none of them put up the howls of indignation at 'slights that aren't' that Alberta is rapidly becoming as famous as Quebec for.... Why?

(It's only fair to tell you... I'm an oilpatch westerner, transplanted to Ontario only a few years ago.)

Trudeau is every bit as unpopular in Saskatchewan as he is in Alberta, and for the same reasons-- but Alberta was unstintingly Tory blue before he came along, as narrow and populist, as 'if it's good for me, to Hell with you'.

Forgive me for thinking it has less to do with the federal Liberal party than it has to do with the folks of the province of Alberta.

[Wild Bill]

Because the Conservative party and their supporters have been intentionally misleading and outright lying to the public. Keep lying but the people will see through you.

Oh, I see. Those millions of people are all just dumb! There's no way they could have been right!

Thank heavens they have the Coalitionistas to do their thinking for them!

Keep up the old 'Vanguard State', comrade!

People need you!

[Smallc]

Well...there you go....must be true if "Americans" do it too.

I knew you'd point that out. After all, we're not allowed to make comparisons to the other country we share the continent with.

[bush_cheney2004]

I knew you'd point that out. After all, we're not allowed to make comparisons to the other country we share the continent with.

Of course you're "allowed", just try to be more fair and include Mexico!

[Molly]

Well, if we are going to reach that far... there are several nations closer to us than Mexico, we have more media contact with several of them, and more in common with most of them.

(I love British mysteries and sit-coms.)

[Smallc]

Of course you're "allowed", just try to be more fair and include Mexico!

I know almost nothing about Mexico.

[Molly]

But I bet you watch more BBC news than FOX, and know the identity of 'she who must be obeyed'.

[waldo]

in the spirit of your kumbaya big-tent inclusiveness I would hope you could elaborate further on the reasons for that so-called Alberta “alienation” – their, as you say, “high sensitivities”. Seriously, let’s open up that same earlier request I made to you. Just the top 5 – today, relative to other provinces, just how is Alberta so hard done by… what uniquely sets the Alberta alienation apart? And yes – NEP has been milked to death – it was 30 years ago, notwithstanding accepted analysis that suggests the perceived impacts had other significant domestic/global contributors.

I see it gets better – how was the Liberal/NDP Coalition a, as you say, “total kick in the head to Western Canadians”?

http://www2.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/...11-118583d08a9f

http://www.troymedia.com/NewsBeats/Politic...2/TMC121008.htm

Those were just two after a quick google on the West and the Coalition.

Here's some on Western alienation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_alienation

We start with Sir John A MacDonald imposing discriminatory freight rates and tariffs that favoured Central Canada and locked the Prairies out of manufacturing and into a grain economy that favoured the East. Later we see the NEP. In the 90's we see the 'Salmon War' off B.C. where the feds left the west coast fishing industry high and dry till finally the fishermen there took an American ferry hostage for 3 days.

There's also Quebec favouritism under the Equalization Act. Let's not forget Mulroney and his awarding of the CF-18 maintenance contract to Quebec when the best and best priced bid came from Manitoba, an act that ignited the flame that was the fledgling Reform Party.

I like this one:

http://www.canadian-politics.com/constitut...est_essay.shtml

When Martin was campaigning in 2004, in his visits to the West was an often repeated statement that his leadership would be a failure if Western angst were not cured. However as his fortunes in the polls sank he reverted to Alberta bashing as a means to protect eastern seats. The political reality was he may gain 1 seat by playing to western interests, but he could gain 10 seats in Ontario by casting himself as a protector of a national health system against the vile Alberta government.

That's enough to get started. Before you just blow it off (likely in a snide manner, it would appear) you might keep in mind that it's not enough to convince me. You have to convince the majority of Western Canadians!

Go ahead, scold them too! Tell them their feelings are old news!

That oughta work REAL good!

The Coalition related question to you was a request to substantiate your statement that the Coalition was, as you stated, “a total kick in the head to Western Canadians”.

I quit reading your 2nd West/Coalition link when the author assigned a “coup designation” to the Coalition. Your 1st West/Coalition link would have us associate that Western Canadian head-kicking to the masterful Conservative party manipulation, falsely decrying the Coalition as played out in the Conservative terminology of the day… unconstitutional, coup, illegitimate, illegal, separatist leaning. An article offering a collection of quotes from Conservative MPs and energy sector insiders framed within this shameful Conservative party manipulation – that’s your substantiation?

The focus of the so-called alienation, as presented, was Alberta… extending that to a broad-based Western alienation is certainly your prerogative – as is ignoring Molly’s several suggestions that there is uniqueness to Alberta’s monopolitic… and by extension, its degree of presumed alienation; one not played out to the same level in other Western provinces.

You were chided about offering up the 30 year passed NEP to substantiate today’s, again, perceived alienation – so, of course, you jump in the way-wayback machine to substantiate alienation.

But let me help you out. To me, a Preston Manning quote cuts to the meat of this so-called Western alienation:

“True, such historic complaints as inequitable freight rates, tariffs and federal resource policies were distinguishing features of western alienation in the past. But these kinds of grievances are not the essence of the discontents of the New West of the 21st century. Today, the New West is big and strong enough to address many regional concerns itself, thank you. No, today the essence of western frustration with Ottawa and the federal system is rooted much more in frustrated aspirations than unaddressed grievances.”

Yes – frustrated aspirations. A current economic big stick, “might-is-right”, mentality forced to reconcile it’s frustration against the reality of Canada’s population centers and traditional economic engine base.

Far too many appear to project that frustrated aspirations position in the form of bleating off about past perceived transgressions. Manning also offered up his thoughts on how best to “work the system” to advance the “cause”… unfortunately, that takes work, reconciliation, accommodation and “bridge-building” (Manning’s phrase). Apparently, far too many would rather bleat on, look to the distant past, ripple discord and even pronounce separation as a panacea.

[Who's Doing What?]

When Martin was campaigning in 2004, in his visits to the West was an often repeated statement that his leadership would be a failure if Western angst were not cured. However as his fortunes in the polls sank he reverted to Alberta bashing as a means to protect eastern seats. The political reality was he may gain 1 seat by playing to western interests, but he could gain 10 seats in Ontario by casting himself as a protector of a national health system against the vile Alberta government.

That's enough to get started. Before you just blow it off (likely in a snide manner, it would appear) you might keep in mind that it's not enough to convince me. You have to convince the majority of Western Canadians!

Go ahead, scold them too! Tell them their feelings are old news!

That oughta work REAL good!

I belive the same has been done the other way in the past. "Protect Alberta from the East" has been a rallying cry before. Didn't someone mention a "firewall"????

There has been talk of Western Alienation for decades. It has become self perpetuating with both sides using what the other has done, to increase their own rhetoric, thereby giving the other side another reason to do something else to fuel the fire.

Canadian politics needs some sanity real soon.

Edited February 1, 2009 by Who's Doing What?