Muslims in Canada want Sharia Law!

[WIP]

Why need they? Their authors might argue that there is plenty of criticism of the Christian right in North America but a shortage of mainstream criticism of conservative Islam.

Yes, there is a shortage of criticism of Islamic extremism, but when that criticism is coming from the Christian Right, it is based on competitive rivalry. Is Islamic extremism that foments terrorism worse than Christian Nationalism that has inspired a war to dominate an oil-rich Arab state that has killed almost one million people and created several million internal and external refugees? Tough call I suppose!

Or, the author's intent might not be to oppose all forms of extremism, but simply Muslim extremism. The lack of countering criticism of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and Wicca doesn't make the criticism of Islam any less valid, does it?

Sometimes the arguments are gross misrepresentations, such as where Robert Spencer quotes a few verses from the Quran like the "Verse of the Sword" and declares that devout Muslims are obligated to kill us if we don't convert to their religion. It is never easy to understand how adherents to a religion interpret and use their holy books, but if we have a quote contest between the Quran and the Bible, it will likely end in a stalemate, as there are loads of shocking disgusting verses in the Bible (even in the New Testament) that most Christians have either never heard of or never thought through their implications; and it's likely much the same story with the Quran -- the disturbing verses may have a whole different meaning to practicing Muslims than they do to the reader who is reading it for the first time.

[Progressive Tory]

Tell me Progressive Tory, how many Promise Keeper meetings have you been to?

None. They don't allow women to attend, remember.

[Progressive Tory]

So then Canada should not be in afghanistan.

I'm glad we agree on something.

In the original thread topic about Sharia Law, the point was made that it infringes on Women's Rights. That may be so, but when living in Canada you can maintain your own culture, but must abide by our laws.

My concern however, is another infringement of Women's Rights, from a group whose Canadian branch founder is sitting as a Member of Parliament. He should not be able to debate or vote on women's issues, including abortion.

Promoting responsible husbands and fathers is subterfuge for the group's real purpose. Gender entitlement based on archaic notions, since men are told they have the divine right to rule the roost. They are encouraged to ask for it, but it is made clear, that if necessary, he must take it.

Their close ties to what is described as a militant anti-abortion organization, also makes them dangerous Christian Extremists, who are almost anti-Christian in their practices.

[Progressive Tory]

And that Promise Keepers thing is another one of these subtle strategies designed to slowly reintroduce patriarchy and remove doctrines of gender equality from the minds of churchgoers.

Exactly, except that they are not always so subtle. I also find that far too many of the 'Ten Commandment' zealots, support war, so should only have nine commandments. But then a gov't must also often lie to gain support for war, so we now have eight commandments. Hmmm....coveting our neighbour's goods ...oil... seven commandments.

They'll need a smaller sign.

[Progressive Tory]

That's a meaningful addition to the discussion.

For the record, I think kittens are cute.

Actually, I prefer puppies.

However, there is a vast difference between religous sects and religous extremists. I consider myself an agnostic. I respect any faith that encourages it's followers to do good. I detest any faith that encourages it's followers to be arrogant based on that faith. And I abhor any faith that encourages violence in the name of that faith.

To suggest that there are more Canadians against Christians than there are against Muslims is preposterous. It's a matter of degree.

[Argus]

The harms of Islamism should not be used to try to deflect criticism of their Christian equivalents.

Is this a joke? Are you seriously stating this when you are applauding exactly the same by the person who inserted this silliness about these "promise keepers" into a thread about Muslims wanting Sharia law?

Argus did not address any of the points about Promise Keepers or Operation Rescue; he just went right to blame-shifting.

No, it was more like a statement about the hypocrisy of people who keep trying to defend the indefensible by - er, blame shifting.

Edited February 12, 2009 by Argus

[Argus]

Thank you. I had to bring this up when Mr. C suggested that Muslims attacked Women's Rights.

Even at the basest level the Promise Keepers are an obamination. They tell men that they are the rightful head of the household.

Are you willing to state that "even at the basest level Islam is an abomination? I'm guessing, er uhm, NO.

So it apparently does not bother you much that in Islam, the male is the rightful head of the household.

They have retreats where they whip men into a frenzy and he goes home pumped up with testosterone and scripture and is ready to TAKE what he does not deserve. They make it very clear. You can't just ask you must take.

<shrug> Most Muslim men have no need to take. Their religion and culture puts them at the head of the household as a matter of course - unquestioned.

But again, you don't seem to have much of an issue with this...

When these Promise Keepers start blowing up buildings and cutting off people's heads you can make your case. Until then you sound like you're simply blustering to no purpose.

[GostHacked]

That's a meaningful addition to the discussion.

Excellent, now we can get started on discussing this issue ....

For the record, I think kittens are cute.

Forget it .. as you were.

[GostHacked]

They'll need a smaller sign.

It will all be on a small business card with two words "TRUST ME" ....

[sharkman]

I'm glad we agree on something.

In the original thread topic about Sharia Law, the point was made that it infringes on Women's Rights. That may be so, but when living in Canada you can maintain your own culture, but must abide by our laws.

My concern however, is another infringement of Women's Rights, from a group whose Canadian branch founder is sitting as a Member of Parliament. He should not be able to debate or vote on women's issues, including abortion.

Promoting responsible husbands and fathers is subterfuge for the group's real purpose. Gender entitlement based on archaic notions, since men are told they have the divine right to rule the roost. They are encouraged to ask for it, but it is made clear, that if necessary, he must take it.

Their close ties to what is described as a militant anti-abortion organization, also makes them dangerous Christian Extremists, who are almost anti-Christian in their practices.

Actually, I support Canada being in Afghanistan, but I think you realize that.

Now I see why you are so rabid about promise keepers and abortion. You're a feminist. Yet as others have mentioned, you don't seem that rabid about the way Muslims treat women and abortionists. Oh, wait, I get it. You believe that Canada should clean up it's own back yard before criticizing others, so that nicely allows one to ignore what's going on in the rest of the world. Women get raped, beaten and killed with husbands going free in Muslim courts, but damn that one guy in parliament who is a known associate with promise keepers!

It's just that it sounds so funny to hear you condemn PK teaching about men's right to rule the roost(not a Canadian organization BTW), yet ignore Islam's teachings on the same subject, using the reasoning that other cultures can live here, but they still have to abide by Canada's laws. Which is of course what promise keepers, and any other christian organization(or anti-abortion organization if you please) has to do as well. Just saying.

[Argus]

Their close ties to what is described as a militant anti-abortion organization, also makes them dangerous Christian Extremists, who are almost anti-Christian in their practices.

Meantime, a couple of moronic Muslims just pled guilty to firebombing Jewish institutions in Montreal in the name of the "Islamic Jihad".

Montrealer pleads guilty in firebombing

Police say Mr. Bulphred researched bomb-making techniques and looked at possible terrorism targets such as Quebec's sole nuclear plant, the Montreal Stock Exchange, a military base, a train station and the U.S. consulate.

According to court testimony that was under publication ban until now, Mr. Bulphred was heard on wiretap telling Mr. Ibragimov that he took orders from others but the police couldn't establish if that claim was true

Pardon me if I worry more about nut jobs like this than your "promise keepers".

[WIP]

Is this a joke? Are you seriously stating this when you are applauding exactly the same by the person who inserted this silliness about these "promise keepers" into a thread about Muslims wanting Sharia law?

For some reason you Christian theocrats consider your attempts to impose your will on others to be rightful, but that competing brand of religion is evil incarnate because they're trying to dominate the world too. The Dominionists behind movements like Premise Keepers believe in implementing Biblical Law (Theonomy) once enough Christians have been retrained to want Mosaic Law to replace the Civil Law.....and by the way, the penalty for violating those laws, including the ones mentioned in the Ten Commandments is public stoning! So how is that different than Sharia, other than the fact that they have had a 50 year head start massaging their message into the heads of their followers?

[Oleg Bach]

Forget about Mosaic law - the reality is what was presented in the New Testiment - The doctrines created by Jesus the Christ - (who was a logical person) It was the logic and civility of this great teacher that brought about western society that you so enjoy - be grateful and don't worry about the fundies - they don't get it.

[WIP]

Actually, I support Canada being in Afghanistan, but I think you realize that.

Then you have one less reason to be shocked about Muslim extremism! Now that we are trying to make deals with local Taliban chiefs, it makes the whole purpose of the invasion a waste, aside from destroying Al Qaeda bases there and taking out their leaders. You can't bitch about Muslim extremism honestly, while supporting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and supporting groups in Israel that build new settlements in the Occupied Territories......and don't forget the oil! If we kept the policies that were started back in the 70's, to reduce the demand for oil, Islam would not have our billions of dollars to finance their madrassahs and propagate their religion so aggressively in the first place.

[WIP]

Forget about Mosaic law - the reality is what was presented in the New Testiment - The doctrines created by Jesus the Christ - (who was a logical person) It was the logic and civility of this great teacher that brought about western society that you so enjoy - be grateful and don't worry about the fundies - they don't get it.

Jesus doesn't say forget the Mosaic Law( at least not always):

MATTHEW

5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.]

[sharkman]

Then you have one less reason to be shocked about Muslim extremism! Now that we are trying to make deals with local Taliban chiefs, it makes the whole purpose of the invasion a waste, aside from destroying Al Qaeda bases there and taking out their leaders. You can't bitch about Muslim extremism honestly, while supporting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and supporting groups in Israel that build new settlements in the Occupied Territories......and don't forget the oil! If we kept the policies that were started back in the 70's, to reduce the demand for oil, Islam would not have our billions of dollars to finance their madrassahs and propagate their religion so aggressively in the first place.

Good grief man. You are tying yourself in knots with your convoluted logic! You remind me of a co-worker who argued that the Cdn government won't legalize drugs(didn't say all of them or which one) because the drug problem creates the budget the police forces need. I am not making this up.

So one can't support Canada's aid in Afghanistan and be critical of Muslim extremists at the same time, eh? Could you explain why exactly a little clearer? Also, you are making great assumptions as to what I do and do not support in Israel.

[cybercoma]

I find it interesting that every single one of those who falls all over themselves to defend Muslims from accusations of any kind will gleefully embrace the slightest hint of evidence of any kind of wrongdoing among Christian groups, however small and unimportant.

Meanwhile, there is this little item I discovered this morning.

A lesson for schools in Surrey and Ottawa

I'll call the Canadian teacher "Miriam," not her real name. A Jewish child of Holocaust survivors, Miriam taught part time at a French-language high school in Ottawa from 2001-2004, a period she describes as "the worst years of my life." The school was predominantly Muslim, the students principally from Djibouti and Eritrea.

Because Miriam was quite aware of the pervasive anti-Semitism amongst her students, she did not reveal she was Jewish. However, after her absence from school on the Jewish High Holidays, she was subject on a daily basis to overt anti-Semitic comments in the hallways, such as: "Does someone smell a Jew, does someone smell a stinking Jew?" Miriam of course complained to the principal and the vice-principal. According to Miriam, the principal said to her: "It seems that you divulged the fact that you are Jewish, so what do you expect?"

Not exclusive to Muslims:

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=40

[Oleg Bach]

Untill there is justice in our system - Sharia is welcome - and I say this out of sheer sweet spite...how can we disallow them to provide justice when we fail to do so?

[kimmy]

Untill there is justice in our system - Sharia is welcome - and I say this out of sheer sweet spite...how can we disallow them to provide justice when we fail to do so?

What a load of crap. Are you building up to another "the social engineers are taking away mens' testicles" rant again? What happened, did the judge award custody of Oleg Jr to Mrs Bach until you promise to get back on your lithium tablets?

-k

[sharkman]

Gee kimmy, you seem a little tense today...

[WIP]

Good grief man. You are tying yourself in knots with your convoluted logic! You remind me of a co-worker who argued that the Cdn government won't legalize drugs(didn't say all of them or which one) because the drug problem creates the budget the police forces need. I am not making this up.

I shouldn't be the one to have to inform you that your co-worker may have a valid point! There is a lot of money poured into the War On Drugs every year; it's not a big stretch to consider that law enforcement agencies can be motivated to advocate the present prohibition strategy because of the rewards they receive for fighting the drug wars.

So one can't support Canada's aid in Afghanistan and be critical of Muslim extremists at the same time, eh? Could you explain why exactly a little clearer? Also, you are making great assumptions as to what I do and do not support in Israel.

I know our Forces are trying to maintain a much lower profile than the Americans, but still, it doesn't appear that the Afghans appreciate the "aid" they are getting from foreign troops. What you call convoluted logic is just the simple fact that Muslim extremists get much of their propaganda ammunition provided for them when Western infidels send armies to occupy their territories......and of course they get the money needed to finance an aggressive campaign to spread their religion from the billions of dollars that MiddleEastern nations take in each year in oil sales. It's not convoluted to come to the realization that defunding the MiddleEast oil business, and removing Western troops from Muslim countries, is the only workable strategy that will decrease Islamic Fascism. The present policies are just feeding the beast!

[sharkman]

There is no drug war in Canada. If, for no other reason, the justice system directs the police by giving little or no sentence for drug dealers and grow-op owners. The police generally do not waste resources on cases that they know the courts will dismiss, or give probation to.

Anyway, I see the point you are trying to make with Canada and Afghanistan. I disagree with you since Muslims have been making war since the beginning of time. Treating the latest symptom, Afghanistan or Iraq, will not make it stop.

[GostHacked]

I shouldn't be the one to have to inform you that your co-worker may have a valid point! There is a lot of money poured into the War On Drugs every year; it's not a big stretch to consider that law enforcement agencies can be motivated to advocate the present prohibition strategy because of the rewards they receive for fighting the drug wars.

You are right it is not much of a stretch.

War on Crime .... we have more crime now

War on Drugs ....... we have more drugs now and even more crime because of it

War on Terrorism ...... we have more terrorism than ever.

War on homelessness ....

WIP, if we recall some time ago (a year or so) about the police at Montebello in Quebec. The masked men trying to incite the police into action where cops themselves. What better way to say you got the situation under control by starting it and ending it. It could have meant more money for that police station or for all the police in that city, and more equipment to fight the rioters.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2007...22.html?ref=rss

Sharkman ... pay attention here.

"The Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union believes that the security force at Montebello were ordered to infiltrate our peaceful assembly and to provoke incidents," Coles told reporters. "I think the evidence that we've shown you today reinforces the view.

I can't get to youtube from work, but do a simple search for the video and you will watch it and then scratch your head. I have never seen protesters, and ones with rocks and bandannas taken down so easily and calmly.

[M.Dancer]

You are right it is not much of a stretch.

War on Crime .... we have more crime now

Umm..no, Crime is down .

War on homelessness ....

More Canadians as a percentage own homes than ever before......should have seen Canada in the 50s....3 families sharing a flat wasn't uncommon.

[Argus]

For some reason you Christian theocrats consider your attempts to impose your will on others to be rightful, but that competing brand of religion is evil incarnate because they're trying to dominate the world too. The Dominionists behind movements like Premise Keepers believe in implementing Biblical Law (Theonomy) once enough Christians have been retrained to want Mosaic Law to replace the Civil Law.....and by the way, the penalty for violating those laws, including the ones mentioned in the Ten Commandments is public stoning! So how is that different than Sharia, other than the fact that they have had a 50 year head start massaging their message into the heads of their followers?

Well, aside from weddings and funerals this "theocrat" hasn't been to church in thirty odd years. Nevertheless, I can, without difficulty, recognise the difference between men who apparently want to return to the fifties, and Muslims who want to return to the fifteen hundreds. I can easily see the difference between a small, unimportant group which urges men to become the heads of households, and a massive, world-wide movement of tens of millions of Islamic fundamentalism which wants to slaughter, burn and murder anyone in its path. It isn't Christians who are stabbing and murdering writers and filmmakers and politicians and schoolgirls across the globe, and the attempts by you and the other extremist leftists here to excuse Muslim fundamentalism by continually inventing some kind of menace from Christians is more than slightly pathetic.

Edited February 13, 2009 by Argus