WIP Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...ml?hpid=topnewsQUOTE This morning, Benedict made his first public comments on the controversy, telling pilgrims in his weekly audience in Vatican City that he feels "full and indisputable" solidarity with Jews and repudiating the idea of denying the Holocaust. According to an Associated Press account of his remarks, Benedict said the memory of the Holocaust should "prompt humanity to reflect on the unpredictable power of evil when it conquers the hearts of men." It appears that the message from Jerusalem is actions speak louder than words: Israel's chief rabbinate severs ties with Vatican Israel's chief rabbinate severed ties with the Vatican on Wednesday to protest a papal decision to reinstate a bishop who publicly denied 6 million Jews were killed during the Holocaust. The Jewish state's highest religious authority sent a letter to the Holy See expressing "sorrow and pain" at the papal decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Vatican II was inspired by the Spirit. If anybody needs to make amends, it is those who rejected the Spirit and the Church when they rejected VII. VII was inspired by Protestantism. Why did they change the Mass from TLM to NO? To appease Protestants and get them to switch sides of coarse. An immediate change like that is outrageous, a little at a time is a better way to go. I'd join a SSPX Church in a heartbeat if it was in full communion with the Church, which very soon it could be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 VII was inspired by Protestantism. Why did they change the Mass from TLM to NO? To appease Protestants and get them to switch sides of coarse. An immediate change like that is outrageous, a little at a time is a better way to go. I'd join a SSPX Church in a heartbeat if it was in full communion with the Church, which very soon it could be. VII is the work of the Spirit. As for the SSPX, as far as I am concerned they should be welcomed back to the Church when they recognize the full authority of the Church and the validity of VII has part of its teachings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 The anti-Semetism and Holocaust denial of "bishop" Williamson is only part of the problem with him. He is not willing to accept the work of the Spirit, as it is present in VII, and he is most likely twilling to accept the authrority of the Church as long as he can find a sympathetic ear to some of his less reactionary ideas in Rome. His excommunication has been lifted. Good for him. Now, the Vatican should remind him of his vow of obedience and order him to shut up. If he can't, or won't, he should be suspended from all ecclesial and priestly function unil he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Kind of sad that adherence to the faith leaves you no option other than to carry water for these people! It may be an absent minded omission or a deliberate attempt to pad his case that he did everything possible to oppose Nazism with limited options available....who know! But the claim the Ratzinger brothers make that they had no options for resistance is a slap in the face to at least a few real heroes who resisted, and became conscientious objectors. You're talking about a ten year old. Are you honestly suggesting that when he was 10 he should have renounced his obligatory membership and tried to overthrow the government or something? Then he was drafted at 16, and wound up in some low level army unit like a lot of other frightened and bewildered teenagers over the years. Expecting him to heroically denounce the whole thing and become a concientious objector (which the Nazis didn't have btw - they called such people deserters and shot them) is absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 News is that the Holocaust-denier Williamson has apologized to the Vatican for the embarrassment. Good, next he can apologize to the families of the victims of the Holocaust. And now we have another moron, also from the SSPX, states that "gas chambers existed at for disinfecting". These priests and bishops want to be in communion with Rome? Then, Rome should remind them that communion for priests and bishoops includ obedience, and order them to shut up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 You're talking about a ten year old. Are you honestly suggesting that when he was 10 he should have renounced his obligatory membership and tried to overthrow the government or something? Then he was drafted at 16, and wound up in some low level army unit like a lot of other frightened and bewildered teenagers over the years. Expecting him to heroically denounce the whole thing and become a concientious objector (which the Nazis didn't have btw - they called such people deserters and shot them) is absurd. It's old news, but the claim is frequently repeated that Ratzinger proved himself by deserting the German Army -- the facts are that he deserted when he was 18 years old (THAT MAKES HIM AN ADULT NOT A CHILD) and he was merely one of thousands of young German soldiers who deserted their ranks in the face of approaching Allied troops. But don't blame me because Ratzinger is held to a higher standard than what the average German soldier would be -- this expectation that he should have something more than the average man is fueled by your Church's elevation of the man who runs the church as having perfect knowledge and discernment, so when his history shows no great acts of courage, and more crucially, on his way to high church office, he commits what would normally be criminal offences by his obstruction of justice by his handling of priest sex scandals -- he appears to be nothing more than the usual power-hungry megalomaniac that we find in politics and the corporate world! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 How come the popes of the past all looked like classically bred jews --- and what's with that Catholic yamaka? As for Rat singer - what the hell is that? Small wonder this group of Vatican twits welcome a holocaust denier - what do you expect from this double dealing boy banging cult anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 News is that the Holocaust-denier Williamson has apologized to the Vatican for the embarrassment. Good, next he can apologize to the families of the victims of the Holocaust.And now we have another moron, also from the SSPX, states that "gas chambers existed at for disinfecting". These priests and bishops want to be in communion with Rome? Then, Rome should remind them that communion for priests and bishoops includ obedience, and order them to shut up. Did you know that any scientific research on the Nazi death camps is forbidden and not allowed. Even picture taking is highly restricted. Are they trying to hide something? If we're to try and learn something from this great tragedy should scientists be allowed to examine the death camps and perform tests on the structures to see exactly where the gas chambers were etc? I'd like to see a National Geographic documentary on such things, it would be interesting as I'm a WWII and history fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Someone gullible and dimwitted has been reading the holocaust denial sites again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Someone gullible and dimwitted has been reading the holocaust denial sites again... If what I said is untrue then prove me wrong please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Did you know that any scientific research on the Nazi death camps is forbidden and not allowed. . Cite please. ...and that is the way it works... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 If what I said is untrue then prove me wrong please. If what you have said is true, then it is up to YOU to provide proof... good luck on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) ... Edited February 2, 2009 by Smallc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born Free Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) Did you know that any scientific research on the Nazi death camps is forbidden and not allowed. Even picture taking is highly restricted. Are they trying to hide something? First, Where did you read this? What organization or individual is making such a claim? Second, I always thought that "forbidden" was essentially the same as "not allowed". I'd like to see a National Geographic documentary on such things, it would be interesting as I'm a WWII and history fan. ....and I'd like to see where you got your info from. Edited February 2, 2009 by Born Free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigAl Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Your slavish devotion to the "religion is bad, and those with faith can't think for themselves" view point is not what I would call freethinking or an independant perspective. It is merely droning the same line over and over again, only with some variations in tones. Agreed. There is no fundamental difference between extremists on either side of the political spectrum. Why, right this very moment I was having a conversation with a coworker about preachy vegetarians versus preachy meat-eaters. It's the same sh*t in a different pile, as far as I'm concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Did you know that any scientific research on the Nazi death camps is forbidden and not allowed. Even picture taking is highly restricted. Are they trying to hide something? If we're to try and learn something from this great tragedy should scientists be allowed to examine the death camps and perform tests on the structures to see exactly where the gas chambers were etc? I'd like to see a National Geographic documentary on such things, it would be interesting as I'm a WWII and history fan. The locations of the five crematorium/leichenkeller @ Auschwitz/Birkenau are well known due to aerial photos and eye witness testimony. The SS blew up all but two of them...the Sondercommando burnt down one of those...and one was only partially destroyed and reconstructed for tourists (Krema I...the old original crematorium). Krema II lies in ruins; the SS didn't have time to remove the fallen structure befor the Russians showed up. Kremas III, IV and V were blown-up and removed. Less obvious are the locations of the 'little red house' and the 'little white house' as the two farm houses turned gas chambers were hidden amoungst orchards. They were also totally destroyed and their bricks carried away by Poles rebuilding their homes and such. They only operated for a relativly short time before the high capacity Kremas were built. Their foundations were still visible, however and some brick reconstruction outlines their locations. ------------------------------------------------------------------ God must have been on leave during the Holocaust. ---Simon Wiesenthal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 The locations of the five crematorium/leichenkeller @ Auschwitz/Birkenau are well known due to aerial photos and eye witness testimony. The SS blew up all but two of them...the Sondercommando burnt down one of those...and one was only partially destroyed and reconstructed for tourists (Krema I...the old original crematorium). Krema II lies in ruins; the SS didn't have time to remove the fallen structure befor the Russians showed up. Kremas III, IV and V were blown-up and removed.------------------------------------------------------------------ God must have been on leave during the Holocaust. ---Simon Wiesenthal Was this guy a holocaust denier previously, or is he just trying to keep in step now that the Pope is welcoming back Nazi sympathizers? I don't know if you ever came across this story before, but a couple of years ago, I was trading posts with a Nazi-sympathizer who came up with the story that Auschwitz could not have been a death camp because it had a swimming pool! A little checking revealed that the "swimming pool" was really a cistern or water reservoir that was occasionally used for swimming by the camp's guards....which is still a stupid way of trying to turn Auschwitz into Club Med! The arguments were becoming such a waste of time that it became apparent that they would toss anything out there to make it appear like there was a real controversy regarding evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Was this guy a holocaust denier previously, or is he just trying to keep in step now that the Pope is welcoming back Nazi sympathizers? Was their more than 1 Nazi Sympathizer? I wasn't aware, you used the plural. History is written by the victors and is always embellished, this can't be argued no matter how vile the enemy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigAl Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Was their more than 1 Nazi Sympathizer? I wasn't aware, you used the plural. History is written by the victors and is always embellished, this can't be argued no matter how vile the enemy. However true that sentiment may be (and it is true) you still tread on dangerous ground when you want to open the conversation to "how many people actually died" etc. etc. For better or worse, the lens of Western history takes a very dim view of those who would deign to question not only the validity of the horror but also the empirical details. It seems to be anathema in our culture to want to discuss this issue -- on the other side of that coin, of course, is the firm conviction that we must never forget that it happened. I guess it's set in stone...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Was their more than 1 Nazi Sympathizer? I wasn't aware, you used the plural. History is written by the victors and is always embellished, this can't be argued no matter how vile the enemy. And your evidence that the numbers of Jews murdered is what exactly? Very similar numbers have been arrived at by a number of scholars and historians. The Nazis killed somewhere between 5 and 6 million Jews, as well all sorts of others (Gypsies, homosexuals, Communists, and so forth). The very first statement to come out of any Deniers mouth is exactly what you said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Was their more than 1 Nazi Sympathizer? I wasn't aware, you used the plural. History is written by the victors and is always embellished, this can't be argued no matter how vile the enemy. Where there's one big fish (Bishop Williamson) there are smaller fish swimming in his wake! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Where there's one big fish (Bishop Williamson) there are smaller fish swimming in his wake! Where there is one fanatical Muslim Cleric preaching beating and raping their wives or advocating terror there are smaller fish swimming in his wake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Where there is one fanatical Muslim Cleric preaching beating and raping their wives or advocating terror there are smaller fish swimming in his wake. Who said there wasn't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 WIP: I don't know if you ever came across this story before, but a couple of years ago, I was trading posts with a Nazi-sympathizer who came up with the story that Auschwitz could not have been a death camp because it had a swimming pool! A little checking revealed that the "swimming pool" was really a cistern or water reservoir that was occasionally used for swimming by the camp's guards....which is still a stupid way of trying to turn Auschwitz into Club Med! The arguments were becoming such a waste of time that it became apparent that they would toss anything out there to make it appear like there was a real controversy regarding evidence. The swimming pool at Auschwitz is part of the original Polish Army camp. After the Germans captured the place in 1939, Auschwitz was converted into a camp for mainly Polish political prisoners. The meat-grinder was Birkenau located a short distance away built especially by the SS to handle the 'Jewish problem'. The real mass killing @ Auschwitz-Birkenau didn't begin until 1942. The death toll...like at so many sites of the Holocaust...is up for grabs as so much of the human evidence literally went up in smoke. As well, there are numerous sites like the infamous Babi-Yar where mass killings took place without camps...simply round up the Jews and shoot them. Nazi record keeping gives us excellent estimates in most cases, but you gotta figure there's always a little freelance 'under-the-table' activities in any venture. Another consideration is that the concentration camps run by Axis fascists other than the SS (like Jasenovac) tended to not be so picky about the paperwork. -------------------------------------------------------- Nations have their ego, just like individuals. ---James Joyce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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