Pope reinstates bishop who denies the Holocaust

[WIP]

Joseph Ratzinger, now Benedict XVI, became a member of the Hitler's Youth at age 14; at that time, membership was mandatory for all Germans upon reaching that age, and he refused to attend any meeting. He was enrolled in the Army at age 16, and deserted at age 17. I am not the biggest fan of the current Pope, but the "Benny is a Nazi" line is getting a bit tired.

I consider Benny's actions since becoming an adult, especially the close bond he feels with openly fascist so-called "traditionalist" Catholics to be the primary indictment of his character -- nonetheless, I have been following this story ever since he became the rumoured successor to JPII, and it has been pointed out many times that Ratzinger has misled others about the factual details of his youth.

For one, he claims that it was impossible for German youth to resist membership in the Hitler Youth:

“At first we weren’t,” he says, speaking of himself and his older brother, “but when the compulsory Hitler Youth was introduced in 1941, my brother was obliged to join. I was still too young, but later as a seminarian, I was registered in the Hitler Youth."

http://www.isthatlegal.org/archives/2005/0...did_the_po.html

And yet investigators are unable to find evidence that he was signed up with the Deutsche Jungvolk, the junior version of the Hitler Youth which recruited members at 10 years of age. Membership in the Hitler Youth became compulsory in 1936, not 1941 as claimed in his biography.

Was resistance impossible as claimed by many wartime Germans? No! It may have been dangerous, and may have put one at risk of being shot as a conscientious objector, but there were a few Germans who did resist Nazism, and paid the price of resistance which included imprisonment and often execution for treason:

Some locals in Traunstein, like Elizabeth Lohner, 84, whose brother-in-law was sent to Dachau as a conscientious objector, dismiss such suggestions. “It was possible to resist, and those people set an example for others,” she said. “The Ratzingers were young and had made a different choice.”

In 1937 another family a few hundred yards away in Traunstein hid Hans Braxenthaler, a local resistance fighter. SS troops repeatedly searched homes in the area looking for the fugitive and his fellow conspirators.

“When he was betrayed and the Nazis came for him, Braxenthaler shot himself because he knew he couldn’t escape,” said Frieda Meyer, 82, Ratzinger’s neighbour and childhood friend. “Even though they had tortured him in Dachau concentration camp he refused to give up his resistance efforts.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...ticle382076.ece

By the time Ratzinger took off his Nazi uniform, it was April 1945, at the War's end -- he was 18, not 17 years old, and if his desertion should be interpreted as evidence of any semblance of courage and conviction, he would have deserted long before he saw advancing Allied troops. Many other German soldiers deserted and surrendered at that time -- we don't regard them as war heroes either!

It's not that Joseph Ratzinger's conduct during WWII makes him a war criminal like Kurt Waldheim for example; the point is there were Germans who did more, and risked more to show their opposition to Nazism. If this is the guy that Catholics call the Vicar of Christ, shouldn't he have lived a heroic life, rather than be one among the faceless crowd of German soldiers following orders and doing what was necessary to survive the War?

More pertinent to here and now, is his silence about Catholic antisemitism during the Nazi Era; the Pope is one of many revisionists who blame Hitler and the Nazis for antisemitism and the Holocaust, and ignore their Church's historic role in fomenting hatred towards Jews through their teaching that the Jews are Christ-killers and ungodly. Since Ratzinger has stated that Jews need to convert to Catholicism, and has reinstated a bishop who openly condemns Jews for murdering their saviour, we can assume that he shares those same views.

[CANADIEN]

I'm not any of those things. It's not anti-semitic to disagree at times with people and want to have discussion.

How about the bit about the Christ-killing Jews? Or babout how Muslims and Jews killing each others will result in more conversions?

[Mr.Canada]

How about the bit about the Christ-killing Jews? Or babout how Muslims and Jews killing each others will result in more conversions?

I will offer no further comment on the issues currently facing the combined people of Palestine.

[CANADIEN]

I consider Benny's actions since becoming an adult, especially the close bond he feels with openly fascist so-called "traditionalist" Catholics to be the primary indictment of his character -- nonetheless, I have been following this story ever since he became the rumoured successor to JPII, and it has been pointed out many times that Ratzinger has misled others about the factual details of his youth.

For one, he claims that it was impossible for German youth to resist membership in the Hitler Youth:

“At first we weren’t,” he says, speaking of himself and his older brother, “but when the compulsory Hitler Youth was introduced in 1941, my brother was obliged to join. I was still too young, but later as a seminarian, I was registered in the Hitler Youth."

http://www.isthatlegal.org/archives/2005/0...did_the_po.html

And yet investigators are unable to find evidence that he was signed up with the Deutsche Jungvolk, the junior version of the Hitler Youth which recruited members at 10 years of age. Membership in the Hitler Youth became compulsory in 1936, not 1941 as claimed in his biography.

So, he mistakes the youth (10-14) branch of the HJ as not fully pat of the organization, and he gets the date membership became compulsory wrong. Frankly. Doesn't change the fact that membership was compulsory.

Was resistance impossible as claimed by many wartime Germans? No! It may have been dangerous, and may have put one at risk of being shot as a conscientious objector, but there were a few Germans who did resist Nazism, and paid the price of resistance which included imprisonment and often execution for treason:

Some locals in Traunstein, like Elizabeth Lohner, 84, whose brother-in-law was sent to Dachau as a conscientious objector, dismiss such suggestions. “It was possible to resist, and those people set an example for others,” she said. “The Ratzingers were young and had made a different choice.”

In 1937 another family a few hundred yards away in Traunstein hid Hans Braxenthaler, a local resistance fighter. SS troops repeatedly searched homes in the area looking for the fugitive and his fellow conspirators.

“When he was betrayed and the Nazis came for him, Braxenthaler shot himself because he knew he couldn’t escape,” said Frieda Meyer, 82, Ratzinger’s neighbour and childhood friend. “Even though they had tortured him in Dachau concentration camp he refused to give up his resistance efforts.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...ticle382076.ece

By the time Ratzinger took off his Nazi uniform, it was April 1945, at the War's end -- he was 18, not 17 years old, and if his desertion should be interpreted as evidence of any semblance of courage and conviction, he would have deserted long before he saw advancing Allied troops. Many other German soldiers deserted and surrendered at that time -- we don't regard them as war heroes either!

It's not that Joseph Ratzinger's conduct during WWII makes him a war criminal like Kurt Waldheim for example; the point is there were Germans who did more, and risked more to show their opposition to Nazism. If this is the guy that Catholics call the Vicar of Christ, shouldn't he have lived a heroic life, rather than be one among the faceless crowd of German soldiers following orders and doing what was necessary to survive the War?

Popes are human beings, with their weaknesses and their strenghts like anyone else. As for this Pope's life during the War, I think he would be the last one to say it was particularly heroic. Even the greatest saints had their less than heroic moments. He stayed away from HJ meetings and serve in an anti-aircraft battery. Not heroic, but certainly not the sign of a Nazi past, unless you have eviedence of involvement in war crimes.

Since Ratzinger has stated that Jews need to convert to Catholicism, and has reinstated a bishop who openly condemns Jews for murdering their saviour, we can assume that he shares those same views.

Considering that he has wrote extensively in defense of Nostra Aetate (the Vatican II document formally renouncing the view that Jews of all places and all times are Jew-killers), the claim that he personnally holds that position is to say the least, hard to believe. Bad enough that he does not view such a position or Holocaust-denial an obsticle to reinstate schismatic bishops.

Edited January 25, 2009 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

delete

Edited January 26, 2009 by CANADIEN

[ToadBrother]

Really, you must have missed those postings of mine stating my knowledge that life begins at conception. Or the one where I said that true marriage is between a man and a woman.

As for being a ture Catholic... It is not compatible with being anti-Semite, homophobic and hateful. Three things you are proving to be about every time you post.

BTW, before you speak of excommunication, do yourself a favour and go take a peak at the Code of canon Law. I did.

Besides, any errant beliefs (if they are errant) can be dealt with in Confession. But I think we've long established that Mr. Canada knows very little about Catholicism.

[WIP]

So, he mistakes the youth (10-14) branch of the HJ as not fully pat of the organization, and he gets the date membership became compulsory wrong. Frankly. Doesn't change the fact that membership was compulsory.

Kind of sad that adherence to the faith leaves you no option other than to carry water for these people! It may be an absent minded omission or a deliberate attempt to pad his case that he did everything possible to oppose Nazism with limited options available....who know! But the claim the Ratzinger brothers make that they had no options for resistance is a slap in the face to at least a few real heroes who resisted, and became conscientious objectors.

Popes are human beings, with their weaknesses and their strenghts like anyone else. As for this Pope's life during the War, I think he would be the last one to say it was particularly heroic. Even the greatest saints had their less than heroic moments. He stayed away from HJ meetings and serve in an anti-aircraft battery. Not heroic, but certainly not the sign of a Nazi past, unless you have eviedence of involvement in war crimes.

There is no independent confirmation that he boycotted all the meetings, except for his account as told to his biographer. The actual Hitler Youth and Deutsche Jungvolk records of the time, are sealed and not made available to independent investigators. So we're taking his word that he made such an effort at passive resistance.

Considering that he has wrote extensively in defense of Nostra Aetate (the Vatican II document formally renouncing the view that Jews of all places and all times are Jew-killers),

He doesn't call them Christ-killers anymore, but even before rehabilitating Nazi-sympathizer priests, he made a few moves such as reinstating a Latin prayer that calls on Jews to convert to Catholicism:

A theological row over the pope's decision to use a rare Latin prayer for Good Friday, which urges Jews to convert to Catholicism, has prompted the president of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, Charlotte Knobloch, to sever relations with the Catholic Church.

Theologically, he has no choice on that one; he has painted himself in a corner, since he claims the Christian covenant with God is the only eternal and universal covenant, which by default means the one with the Jews, or any other group or religion cannot be.

In reference to Judaism, he talks about the Patriarchs of ancient Israel, and all of the flattering language in the world can't hide the fact that he is viewing their religion as an historic relic. So, what is the point of the ecumenical conferences? Might as well just tell the others at the table they are going to burn in a Christian hell if they don't become Catholics and recognize him as God's representative on Earth.

the claim that he personnally holds that position is to say the least, hard to believe. Bad enough that he does not view such a position or Holocaust-denial an obsticle to reinstate schismatic bishops.

The media has focused their attention on holocaust denial, but what about the other members of the Society of Pope Pius X, who in France supported the Neofascist National Front Party of Jean Marie Le Pen. This so called traditionalist organization, is cut from the same cloth as others, such as the fascist-supporting Opus Dei. Is the pope so desperate to bring back conservative Catholics that he will overlook antisemitism and fascist sentiments, or does he actually want the kind of Catholic Church that existed during his youth -- which was the great enabler for fascist parties throughout Europe.

[CANADIEN]

Kind of sad that adherence to the faith leaves you no option other than to carry water for these people!

Kind of sad that blind adherance to the "religion is bad" mantra lead you with no other options than to drone endlessly about how we are to think of Benedict XVI as an evil man because he was less than a hero when he was a teenager. Others did more that he did, he should recognize that the way he saw his options as a teenager was wrong, now let's get to something more iimportant.

He doesn't call them Christ-killers anymore, but even before rehabilitating Nazi-sympathizer priests, he made a few moves such as reinstating a Latin prayer that calls on Jews to convert to Catholicism:

All human beings are called by God to recognize Jesus Christ as their Saviour. To equate that with anti-Semitism is quite a stretcheven for you. And you ignore writings by the current Pope, both before and after his election, on the continuing validity of God's Covenant with the Jewish people. A little Googgle search will show you some of that, including ranting by traditionalist circles on how this makes him an apostate at best.

Ecumenism, btw, is dialogue, not some kind of melting pot where all faiths become unrecognizable. Respect for and dialogue people with a different faith and prayers for conversion are not mutually exclusive.

The media has focused their attention on holocaust denial, but what about the other members of the Society of Pope Pius X, who in France supported the Neofascist National Front Party of Jean Marie Le Pen. This so called traditionalist organization, is cut from the same cloth as others, such as the fascist-supporting Opus Dei. Is the pope so desperate to bring back conservative Catholics that he will overlook antisemitism and fascist sentiments, or does he actually want the kind of Catholic Church that existed during his youth -- which was the great enabler for fascist parties throughout Europe.

Both, and that's (the triomphalist Church willing to bend backwards to welcome back schismatic traditionalists) is my one problem with the current Pope. But to equate that with a renewed anti-Semitism as an official position of the Church or even a belief of most of its followers is simplistic, and false.

[WIP]

Kind of sad that blind adherance to the "religion is bad" mantra lead you with no other options than to drone endlessly about how we are to think of Benedict XVI as an evil man because he was less than a hero when he was a teenager.

The advantage of being a freethinker, is the freedom of having that independent perspective, and not having to grudgingly support foul characters like Ratzinger. My problem with religion is more related to the institutions of religion, than what the belief structures are; and the Catholic Church is mired with internal politics and financial scandals, besides the sex scandals that have been the primary focus of the media so far. Ratzinger was a prominent player inside the Vatican, doing the damage control to hide the corruption and scandals over the years, rather than openly calling for reform; so my conclusion is that he is an evil megalomaniac, bent on re-establishing the kind of theocracy his church enjoyed in the past.

Others did more that he did, he should recognize that the way he saw his options as a teenager was wrong, now let's get to something more iimportant.

This would not even be an issue, if it wasn't for the instant prestige and credibility accorded to the man who holds this high office. The Church builds him up as something better than the average man, so when he acts ordinary, and not as a heroic man of action, it's one strike against him because of these expectations.

All human beings are called by God to recognize Jesus Christ as their Saviour. To equate that with anti-Semitism is quite a stretcheven for you. And you ignore writings by the current Pope, both before and after his election, on the continuing validity of God's Covenant with the Jewish people. A little Googgle search will show you some of that, including ranting by traditionalist circles on how this makes him an apostate at best.

Benny is a little murky on that Jewish Covenant though, since he also maintains that Jews have to accept Jesus Christ for salvation -- so what is the point of God maintaining an inferior covenant, when there is suppose to be this universal, all-encompassing covenant with Christ? There isn't, and he knows it, and that's why he clutters his writings on the subject with obscure theological ramblings that most Catholics won't understand anyway.

Also, no we aren't all called by God to recognize Jesus Christ, and this simple belief statement means that the only way to have peace between Christians and Muslims, is to submerge the core principles of these religions, because they each claim exclusive rights to the keys to heaven. As soon as Christians or Muslims start talking about why the non-affiliated have to be part of their club, conflict can break out at any time. Long, bloody wars have been fought over exclusivist theologies, and the only reason we don't have it much in the West now, is because we have turned religion inward and away from discussion in the public square, or the workplace.

But, on this subject, I don't know if you are aware of it, but Christianity and Islam are among the few world religions that claim exclusive salvation and demand conversion to gain God's favour. Neither religion has anything superior to offer above the religions that they purged to gain control of their populations -- they were just more aggressive; since most religions do not try to convert outsiders or fight wars to force others to join the club. In actual fact, the Christian and Muslim traditions are the source of most of what's wrong with the world today!

Ecumenism, btw, is dialogue, not some kind of melting pot where all faiths become unrecognizable. Respect for and dialogue people with a different faith and prayers for conversion are not mutually exclusive.

It's a sort of religious version of the peace talks between rival nations. They both have contempt for each other, but they recognize that all out conflict is against their interests. Again, if they didn't have the ludicrous idea that they have exclusive knowledge and control an exclusive relationship with the creator of the universe, there wouldn't be a need for ecumenical dialogue in the first place.

Both, and that's (the triomphalist Church willing to bend backwards to welcome back schismatic traditionalists) is my one problem with the current Pope. But to equate that with a renewed anti-Semitism as an official position of the Church or even a belief of most of its followers is simplistic, and false.

Well, I'm glad that you at least consider elevating fascist clergy to be a bad thing, but these fascists being brought into the Church are also anti-Jewish, so what does that tell you about who's in charge at the Vatican?

[ToadBrother]

Well, I'm glad that you at least consider elevating fascist clergy to be a bad thing, but these fascists being brought into the Church are also anti-Jewish, so what does that tell you about who's in charge at the Vatican?

Ratzinger is trying to stack the deck, and bringing on ultra-conservatives is a bit of insurance that the next Pope will be as socially regressive as he is. That one of them just happens to be a Jew-hater is a small sacrifice.

[Mr.Canada]

What you guys are doing is akin to kicking a puppy when you're attacking the Catholic Church.

[ToadBrother]

What you guys are doing is akin to kicking a puppy when you're attacking the Catholic Church.

WTF does that even mean? The Church isn't a puppy, it's an ancient, extraordinarily wealthy institution which has survived for the better part of 2000 years. I'm sure it can survive a few people pointing out that reversing an excommunication of a vile, repugnant anti-Semite simply because the guy happens to despise Vatican II as much as Ratzinger does is expediency at its worst.

Some of us here aren't Catholics, so we owe your church of choice no particular or special reverence.

[Mr.Canada]

WTF does that even mean? The Church isn't a puppy, it's an ancient, extraordinarily wealthy institution which has survived for the better part of 2000 years. I'm sure it can survive a few people pointing out that reversing an excommunication of a vile, repugnant anti-Semite simply because the guy happens to despise Vatican II as much as Ratzinger does is expediency at its worst.

Some of us here aren't Catholics, so we owe your church of choice no particular or special reverence.

You don't belong yet feel you should have a say in how we run our CHurch? I find it amusing. Please continue your anti-Catholic rants. Jack Chick would be proud.

[ToadBrother]

You don't belong yet feel you should have a say in how we run our CHurch? I find it amusing. Please continue your anti-Catholic rants. Jack Chick would be proud.

Hey, I don't want any say in how you run your church. Bring in all the Jew haters you want. But it's a free country, so if I feel so inclined, I can comment on what the Church does.

[Mr.Canada]

Hey, I don't want any say in how you run your church. Bring in all the Jew haters you want. But it's a free country, so if I feel so inclined, I can comment on what the Church does.

You aren't commenting, you're attacking the RCC and attacking me for being a member of said Church.

[ToadBrother]

You aren't commenting, you're attacking the RCC and attacking me for being a member of said Church.

Well, I'll admit to attacking the Church. It's a free country. I'm allowed to. Isn't that great, that no institution, no matter how important it seems to think itself, has even the tiniest bit of power to silence me.

I do love a secular society.

[Mr.Canada]

Well, I'll admit to attacking the Church. It's a free country. I'm allowed to. Isn't that great, that no institution, no matter how important it seems to think itself, has even the tiniest bit of power to silence me.

I do love a secular society.

Keep kicking the defenseless puppy.

[ToadBrother]

Keep kicking the defenseless puppy.

It's a free country. I'm allowed to attack the Church. It isn't a puppy. It's free to fight back.

You really fear secularism, don't you? Someone having this kind of freedom just scares the crap out of you.

[Mr.Canada]

It's a free country. I'm allowed to attack the Church. It isn't a puppy. It's free to fight back.

You really fear secularism, don't you? Someone having this kind of freedom just scares the crap out of you.

A society that doesn't take responsibility for itself is what scares me. It's going downhill yet the socialists won't take responsibility for their creation of this society without morals.

[scorpio]

Keep kicking the defenseless puppy.

It deserves far more than kicking for the savage abuses it forced on defenseless children by moving around pedophile priests.

[ToadBrother]

A society that doesn't take responsibility for itself is what scares me. It's going downhill yet the socialists won't take responsibility for their creation of this society without morals.

And what sorts of morals are involved in reversing the excommunication of a Holocaust-denier? What sort of morals are involved in moving pedophile priests around?

I say your protestations are more a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

[Mr.Canada]

It deserves far more than kicking for the savage abuses it forced on defenseless children by moving around pedophile priests.

Lol, keep kicking the defenseless puppy. The RCC is such an easy target as we influence over a Billion people.

[ToadBrother]

Lol, keep kicking the defenseless puppy.

I have a hard time figuring out whether you're joking, or just an idiot.

The RCC is such an easy target as we influence over a Billion people.

The last part of your sentence falsifies the first part of your sentence.

[scorpio]

Lol, keep kicking the defenseless puppy. The RCC is such an easy target as we influence over a Billion people.

Enjoy!

[jdobbin]

Lol, keep kicking the defenseless puppy.

Why did you hate Jews so much that you refuse to believe the Holocaust happened?