CANADIEN Posted January 23, 2009 Report Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) If Omar Khadr was freed by the U.S. authorities, the Canadian government would be legally obligated to allow him back, as he has Canadian citizenship. I wish he wasn't, and there would be a way to take his citizenship away, but my wishes and the rule of law are two different things in this case. And while there is also the possibility or having laws retroactively taking away the citizenship of people accused of certainpast crimes, he would set a dangerous precedent of retroactive law. He is not worth it. Does this mean he should just be left to walk free on our streets? Most definitely not. While I wonder how many of those who call him a traitor took the time to actually read the definition of the word in Canadian law, it just so happen that at least some of the acts he committed can be considered treasonous under Canadian law The Criminal Code (section 46) states: Every one commits high treason who, in Canada, (a) kills or attempts to kill Her Majesty, or does her any bodily harm tending to death or destruction, maims or wounds her, or imprisons or restrains her; b - levies war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto; or © assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are. Treason (2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada, (a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province; b - without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada; © conspires with any person to commit high treason or to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a); (d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act; or (e) conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in paragraph b or forms an intention to do anything mentioned in paragraph b and manifests that intention by an overt act." It is also illegal for a Canadian citizen to do any of the above outside Canada. The penalty for high treason is life imprisonment. The penalty for treason is imprisonment up to a maximum of life, or up to 14 years for conduct under subsection (2) b or (e) in peacetime. Ironically, he being a Canadian citizenship would give our government a stronger legal foundation to try him. Edited January 23, 2009 by CANADIEN Quote
85RZ500 Posted January 23, 2009 Report Posted January 23, 2009 Ignatief was on the news yesterday saying Khadr should be returned into Canadian society. That's the kind of bilge he and the Liebarrels , and the Dippers, are spoutiing. Let the US follow thru with their system, if he gets another 20yrs, so be it. Quote
MontyBurns Posted January 23, 2009 Report Posted January 23, 2009 The "black man" is obviously going to be soft on terrorism and national security. Not good. Quote "From my cold dead hands." Charlton Heston
BigAl Posted January 23, 2009 Report Posted January 23, 2009 Some were, most were not. On the same token the Germans also engaged in terrorism. See, and herein lies the problem with a term like "terrorism" -- it's vague, general, not really defined (I *know* there is an existing U.N. definition, but that's not what I'm talking about). History is written retroactively, by the winners. I would contend that if Nazi Germany had somehow managed to win the war, the French Resistance would be remembered in their history books as a terrorist group. Since the Nazis didn't win, the French Resistance are remembered as heroes, "freedom fighters", etc. I'm not making a value judgment on the people involved, I'm just pointing out the flaw in the rhetoric -- or in the historical process, whichever you prefer. Quote
Army Guy Posted January 23, 2009 Report Posted January 23, 2009 Do i think young Khadr should get his day in court, yes by all means, does it have to be a Canadian court no, in my opinon Canada's court and justice system have already screw the pouch on the other Khadr family members, most of which have direct ties to Terror activties, or groups, and we have as a nation done nothing, well i would not say nothing we've placed them on welfare, given some of them large sums of money for info, provided health care for others... So while i do believe he should have his day in court, i also believe he should answer for his crimes....and justice served. Why he would want to be tried in Canada is beyond me, Our government already has US assurance he will not be given the death sentence, but rather life in prison...while here in Canada he faces more charges than just a murder charge but we could also add into the mix a treason charge, as someone has already mentioned and placed a link to.... There may not be enough edvidance of him throwing a grenade, and killing a US army Medic ...although it is mentioned by CIA agents, in a interview, according to them he gave freely like he was bragging about it....but hey....he may of been tortured...so we will throw out that edvidence..... there is of course a tape of him engaged in planting IED's and bragging about it...on serveral occasions in afgan....so at the very least we could charge him on acts of terrorism.... I personal think he is better off under US control right now, or maybe he is counting on us to screw the justice system once more and place him back with mom and the rest of the terrorist family.... If justice is not served what message does that send the rest of these terrorist, what message does it send our nations soldiers fighting these very terrorist right now.... Canadian defination of Terrorist activities..... definition of terrorism. The proposed anti-terrorism bill defines “terrorist activities” as an action that takes place either within or outside of Canada that: is an offence under one of the 10 United Nations anti-terrorism conventions or protocols; or is taken or threatened for political, religious or ideological purposes and threatens the public or national security by killing, seriously harming or endangering a person, causing substantial property damage that is likely to seriously harm other people or by interfering with or disrupting an essential service, facility or system Canadian defination of terrorist This from a trail already held in Canada. Mohammad Momin Khawaja, a 29-year-old Ottawa-area software developer arrested almost five years ago, was convicted October 29 on five charges of participating in a "terrorist group" ." . . it seems to me beyond debate that, subject to the applicability of the exclusionary `armed conflict' clause, those who support and participate in the insurgent armed hostilities against the civilian population, the government, and government and coalition forces attempting to reconstruct and maintain peace, order and security in Afghanistan, are, by definition, engaging in terrorist activity. Seen through the lens of a court of Canada, a Member State of the United Nations, I do not think it can be viewed otherwise. News reports of insurgent attacks in Afghanistan are characterized daily in the news as `terrorist' and not surprisingly since, subject to the armed conflict clause, they meet the definition of terrorist activity in the Criminal Code. It seems self-evident that the armed insurgency in Afghanistan is "- intended in whole or in part to intimidate the population or that segment of it that supports the legitimate government and those assisting it in its reconstruction and establishing of peace and order with regard to their security, and intended to compel the population, the government, NATO, the United Nations and all those agencies supporting the reconstruction and democratization efforts to refrain and desist, and Canadian law xxx Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
eyeball Posted January 23, 2009 Report Posted January 23, 2009 Now that President Obama has ordered Guantanamo closed down, all prisoners will be either released or sent to detention in other countries.Omar Khadr should be returned to Canada and set free. He was 15 years old when he was taken prisoner in AFghanistan. There is no proof that he killed an American, and the trial has now been ordered halted by President Obama. After 5 years, will he be set free, as are his rights under Canadian law? And if so, can he then sue the Canadian government, and maybe the US as well, for illegal detention, maybe even torture? I hope so. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted January 23, 2009 Report Posted January 23, 2009 Sue Canada for what? For not killing his father before he ruined his son's life? Why should he be sent to Canada? Shouldn't he go to Afganistan, since that's where his crime was commited? Dispite what a lot of people seem to believe, Canadians are subject to foreign laws when they are in the foreign countries. Or should we allow somebody with a Saudi Arabian citizenship beat his wife in Canada because of his citizenship???This family is another shining example of why we should eliminate Dual citizenship. We are a Terrorist hospital. Having said all that, I am glad that the Americans have moved towards closing Gitmo, as it was WRONG of them to have such a place! It was not only wrong it was illegal, certainly the things that happened there were. IMO the Canadian government failed Khadr by not charging American officials with war crimes and exacerbated his maltreatment and abuse by effectively abandoning him and looking the other way. This is why Khadr should be compensated and the compensation should be far in excess of what Mahar Arar received. Partly because of the greater length of time Khadr's human rights have been violated but mostly to teach Canadians the lesson that we need far better control over the actions of our government so we can avoid trashing our country's good name. We should all be deeply ashamed. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted January 23, 2009 Report Posted January 23, 2009 I gues it's either you have instances where he engaged in terrorism or you are unclear as to what the definition of terrorism is.... At present, there is no internationally agreed definition of terrorism. Source Note the neutrality of this article is not in dispute...at least for the moment. Thankfully we do have definitions for things like torture and habeas corpus. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted January 23, 2009 Report Posted January 23, 2009 At present, there is no internationally agreed definition of terrorism.Source Note the neutrality of this article is not in dispute...at least for the moment. Thankfully we do have definitions for things like torture and habeas corpus. An internationally agreed definition is a international waste of time. Why would the sponsors of terrorism agree to a definition that would include them? In spite of the obvious dodging, there is a sane and reasonable definition and it is used by us in the west. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted January 23, 2009 Report Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) An internationally agreed definition is a international waste of time. Why would the sponsors of terrorism agree to a definition that would include them? I don't expect any super-powers that export weapons and aid to dictators would ever agree to a definition. I think countries like ours should invoke our responsibility to protect and use it to trump the requirement these sponsors agree and force a legal definition on them that is derived by consensus. In spite of the obvious dodging, there is a sane and reasonable definition and it is used by us in the west. Only as a dodge though, to ignore the fact that aiding and abbetting bloodthirsty dictators is by any rational definition a terrifying thing to do given what happens to the people they usually imprison, abuse, torture, murder etc etc. Edited January 23, 2009 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted January 23, 2009 Report Posted January 23, 2009 And in the fifth inning he hits the bong and goes out to left field, Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
noahbody Posted January 23, 2009 Report Posted January 23, 2009 IMO the Canadian government failed Khadr by not charging American officials with war crimes and exacerbated his maltreatment and abuse by effectively abandoning him and looking the other way. He was the one who abandoned Canada. This is why Khadr should be compensated Let's give a terrorist money. Brilliant. and the compensation should be far in excess of what Mahar Arar received. Arar should have received very little. He was, IMO, largely responsible for what happened to him. I'm referring to answering questions falsely and making himself look guilty. He f***ed up, just as much as everyone else involved. Partly because of the greater length of time Khadr's human rights have been violated but mostly to teach Canadians the lesson that we need far better control over the actions of our government so we can avoid trashing our country's good name. We should all be deeply ashamed. David Milgaard, a completely innocent man who lost 21 years of his life only got $10 million. Quote
CANADIEN Posted January 23, 2009 Report Posted January 23, 2009 Do i think young Khadr should get his day in court, yes by all means, does it have to be a Canadian court no, in my opinon Canada's court and justice system have already screw the pouch on the other Khadr family members, most of which have direct ties to Terror activties, or groups, and we have as a nation done nothing, well i would not say nothing we've placed them on welfare, given some of them large sums of money for info, provided health care for others... So while i do believe he should have his day in court, i also believe he should answer for his crimes....and justice served.Why he would want to be tried in Canada is beyond me, Our government already has US assurance he will not be given the death sentence, but rather life in prison...while here in Canada he faces more charges than just a murder charge but we could also add into the mix a treason charge, as someone has already mentioned and placed a link to.... There may not be enough edvidance of him throwing a grenade, and killing a US army Medic ...although it is mentioned by CIA agents, in a interview, according to them he gave freely like he was bragging about it....but hey....he may of been tortured...so we will throw out that edvidence..... there is of course a tape of him engaged in planting IED's and bragging about it...on serveral occasions in afgan....so at the very least we could charge him on acts of terrorism.... I personal think he is better off under US control right now, or maybe he is counting on us to screw the justice system once more and place him back with mom and the rest of the terrorist family.... If justice is not served what message does that send the rest of these terrorist, what message does it send our nations soldiers fighting these very terrorist right now.... Canadian defination of Terrorist activities..... Canadian defination of terrorist This from a trail already held in Canada. Mohammad Momin Khawaja, a 29-year-old Ottawa-area software developer arrested almost five years ago, was convicted October 29 on five charges of participating in a "terrorist group" Canadian law xxx Agreed Quote
CANADIEN Posted January 23, 2009 Report Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) Arar should have received very little. He was, IMO, largely responsible for what happened to him. I'm referring to answering questions falsely and making himself look guilty. He f***ed up, just as much as everyone else involved. To what questions did he allegedly provide false responses? And how did he allegedly look guilty? The one thing always put forward is "he described as a mere acquintance a man who signed on his lease and who once took a walk with him to the mosque after they run into each other at the mosque". I don't know about you, if I had met the brother of a friend at a few gatherings, if he had come to sign on my lease by my friend was not available, and if I ran into him at the subway station on my way to church once or twice, I too would prbably describe him as an acquitance. This is not to say that the RCMP should not had kept an eye on Arar when he came under their radar. Or that the Americans should not have asked him questions. But that's a far cry from arguing that he is largely responsible for the false accusations, attempts at portraying as a terrorist and above all the torture of which he was the victim. You mention Milgaard. There is also Morin, Marshall, Truscott. And many others who, like Arar, were persecuted for crimes they did not commit. All of them have done something, or been somewhere, that attracted police attention. Yet, nobody would say that tehy are mostly responsible for their ordeal. Only Arar. Edited January 24, 2009 by CANADIEN Quote
guyser Posted January 23, 2009 Report Posted January 23, 2009 And how did he allegedly look guilty? Dark skin, a beard, names Arar.....what, one needs more evidence ? shit, hang him now... "He looks guilty !" Quote
Oleg Bach Posted January 23, 2009 Report Posted January 23, 2009 Dark skin, a beard, names Arar.....what, one needs more evidence ? shit, hang him now..."He looks guilty !" Now you get it - The American cowards would have looked pretty silly hanging out a mere boy to be cruxified....Look look we have captured a terrorist...don't look at the man behind the curtain and forget the acne... Here is what I find profound - they can catch a boy just turned fifteen but can not catch Bin Laden? Real heros those Americans! Give me Bin Laden now and send the boy home ...but that won't happen - Saudi Arabia protects their crimminal sons - as do America - Bush is still at large as is Cheney...they faciltated the killing and crippling of thousands - yet they want the boy to pay...ha ha ha ---talk about cowards and crooks...so what if Khdar killed some invading American "medic" - how sweet... Like I said - he was the last under the ruble and any normal person would have fought off the invaders to the death - besides WE ARE NOT AMERICA. Quote
guyser Posted January 24, 2009 Report Posted January 24, 2009 Now you get it - And you never will. Quote
Oleg Bach Posted January 24, 2009 Report Posted January 24, 2009 And you never will. I beg to differ. My approach is untainted by gain - You will agree with the present state of affairs no matter who corrupt as long as they send you a loaf of bread and a few dollars - I have nothing - I am not dependent on the justifcation of evil deception to survive in this world - You are. Quote
Topaz Posted January 25, 2009 Report Posted January 25, 2009 Most of those prisoners, were men who Afghans turned over after the US came out with a reward for terrorists. So what the US got was innocent men who were sold for money to buy food. Khadr, I think should be allowed to go free, he's spent 5-6 years already in prisoner and I don't agree with Harper when he said it doesn't matter to him being a child soldier. IF the US is going to punish those who have killed US soldiers, then you could see the same thing happening if the government of AFG. doing the same thing to the US military when they killed innocent citizens, it seems a double standard here. Quote
Alexandra Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 Most of those prisoners, were men who Afghans turned over after the US came out with a reward for terrorists. So what the US got was innocent men who were sold for money to buy food. Khadr, I think should be allowed to go free, he's spent 5-6 years already in prisoner and I don't agree with Harper when he said it doesn't matter to him being a child soldier. IF the US is going to punish those who have killed US soldiers, then you could see the same thing happening if the government of AFG. doing the same thing to the US military when they killed innocent citizens, it seems a double standard here. Topaz. Please cite your source for this statement from M. Harper. When and where did you hear, see or read "it doesn't matter to him being a child soldier? As a matter of fact Topaz, wouldn't this Khadr kid have to be in a country's "army" to be classified as a child "soldier"? Which country's army was this Khadr kid a soldier of -- Pakistan? Afghanistan? Iran? Syria? -- a very broad hint for you to google for the 'actual' statement. I think Dancer has the right attitude -- it's all about toasters! ` Quote
Army Guy Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 At present, there is no internationally agreed definition of terrorism. Which would proably pose a problem if he was going to be charged in an international court...But that is not what you want, your goal is to have him brought back to Canada, where it has been pionted out with a link that Canada does have a clear, defination of a terrorist and terrorist activities....And thier is evidance that clearly proves that, even after you throw out all the evidance gather in gitmo, ....Thier is the matter of the tape found at the scene of the attack in which he was wounded... So what are we giving him a settlement for exactly....His stay in gitmo, his alleged torture, mistreatment, the loss of his youth....what exactly are we rewarding this young man for... Topaz: Most of those prisoners, were men who Afghans turned over after the US came out with a reward for terrorists. So what the US got was innocent men who were sold for money to buy food. Those prisoners you make reference to are normally turned over to Afgan authorities, and dealt by Afgan authorities ...Prisoners in Gitmo have been captured by US or other western forces, after alot of ground work and intel has been gather an arrest is made, it should be noted that these prisoners were special interest prisoners that may have had hard intel to the workings of thier groups or cells....Not because someone turned them in for some food....after a brief investagation, those prisoners are turned over to afgan police for processing, or released..... Or maybe you can provide a link for this story.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Muddy Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 Lets get a few facts straight here. This kid was born in Canada. His parents were Egyption first,not Afgany. So he was niether fighting for Canada or Egypt. He was not fighting for his country in other words. His Dad ,a known terrorist was released from a Pakistani jail at the request of Chrietien. Maybe we should lay the blame there. We are allied with NATO forces in Afganistan. If he had killed as is alleged a Canadian soldier instead of an American soldier would that make a difference ? His family when they returned to Canada for sustenance at the Canadian Teat made it very clear their hatred of our way of life. If ever there was a reason to revoke citizenship ,this family is a good example. Remember that our soldiers and their allies are not fighting this war at the behest of the USA. It was a UN mission and the UN requested NATO to operate this war at their behest. Take you beefs to the UN . Not the USA or Canada. Quote
tango Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 Lets get a few facts straight here. This kid was born in Canada. His parents were Egyption first,not Afgany. So he was niether fighting for Canada or Egypt. He was not fighting for his country in other words. His Dad ,a known terrorist was released from a Pakistani jail at the request of Chrietien. Maybe we should lay the blame there. We are allied with NATO forces in Afganistan. If he had killed as is alleged a Canadian soldier instead of an American soldier would that make a difference ? His family when they returned to Canada for sustenance at the Canadian Teat made it very clear their hatred of our way of life. If ever there was a reason to revoke citizenship ,this family is a good example. Remember that our soldiers and their allies are not fighting this war at the behest of the USA. It was a UN mission and the UN requested NATO to operate this war at their behest. Take you beefs to the UN . Not the USA or Canada. Isn't this getting confused? Omar Kahdr was in Iraq, and taken prisoner by Americans, who were operating without a UN mission. Canadians living out of country have to come home every six months so they can maintain their residency and health insurance. That's no secret. Plenty do ... from Florida, for example, as well as overseas. I don't believe the Kahdr's hate our way of life. Omar and his sister both sound pretty Canadian to me. I think while they were growing up they were caught in what their Father was doing. That doesn't go away, but they've lost their Father and another brother. Omar, who was a child himself when he started helping with schools for other children, under his Dad's eye at first, not armed, not a soldier ... went to Guantanamo to pay for the sins of his father and brother. Quote My Canada includes rights of Indigenous Peoples. Love it or leave it, eh! Peace.
CANADIEN Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 Isn't this getting confused?Omar Kahdr was in Iraq, and taken prisoner by Americans, who were operating without a UN mission. He was in Afghanistan. I don't believe the Kahdr's hate our way of life. The Khadr mother makes a pretty good imitation of someone who hates us, then. I think while they were growing up they were caught in what their Father was doing.That doesn't go away, but they've lost their Father and another brother. Omar, who was a child himself when he started helping with schools for other children, under his Dad's eye at first, not armed, not a soldier ... went to Guantanamo to pay for the sins of his father and brother. Being in the middle of a group of terrorists, fighting, is not wha I'd call helping with school. Quote
Army Guy Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 I don't believe the Kahdr's hate our way of life. Here is some quotes from Cdn papers, reading them i can feel the love they have for this country, infact i'm thinking about moving into thier neibourhood...how about you. Elsamnah - Mrs. Khadr - has recently changed her tune. In the same CBC story as her son confessed the Khadrs were Al-Qa'ida through and through, Elsamnah told reporters the Americans got what 'they deserved' on 9/11 and that she preferred Afghan and Pakistani terrorism camps for her boys to Canadian schools where they would be corrupted by Western materialism and sexuality. But last Friday, on her return to Canada to seek medical treatment for crippled Karim, Elsamnah insisted her family has 'no connection to Al-Qa'ida.' On the CBC program, Ms. Elsamnah said she thought 'let them have it,' as planes crashed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon on Sept. 11, 2001, killing nearly 3,000 people." Ms. Elsamnah praised al-Qaeda and suicide bombers in a recent CBC documentary, but has since denied her family's involvement with the terrorist group. Having deemed Canada unfit to raise her children lest they become drug addicts or, apparently worse, homosexuals, she left in the 1980s to expose her four sons to the joys of al-Qaeda training camps. Elsamnah Khadr has been quoted as hoping her children die as martyrs to their extreme Islamic cause. Media That doesn't go away, but they've lost their Father and another brother. Omar, who was a child himself when he started helping with schools for other children, under his Dad's eye at first, not armed, not a soldier ... went to Guantanamo to pay for the sins of his father and brother. Funney thing about this whole illision you have of Omar being the School master for a bunch of Afgan refugees, is not entirely true....you've saidf that he just happened to be there, at the time of the attack....and yet a search of the rubble and the found serveral tapes, on these tapes is serveral of Omars buddies, also killed in the attack, but wait Omar is in the tapes as well, and guess what they are doing Planting IED's at night , what we have is a confession and vidio of him planting mines and IED's on serveral occasions.... The search of the destroyed house also found bomb making material and explosives....one does not have to be on the NASA staff to figure out Omar was a IED maker and planter....making him a terrorist and guilty of terrorist activties....under Canadian Law, inter-national law... He did not go to pay for anyones sins but his own.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
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