Why is atheism seen as such a threat?

[Melanie_]

I was driving past a church today, and read the sign out front: "Atheism isn't merely a denial of the truth, but a suppression of it." As I continued to drive, I thought that there is no way a church would post such an attack about other belief systems - can you imagine what would happen if you substituted the word Islam, or Judaism, or Buddhism in that sign? Why is atheism seen as such a threat?

[eyeball]

Why is atheism seen as such a threat?

It rattles people's souls.

[noahbody]

Replace "Atheism" with "The survival of our church" and it becomes a meaningful statement.

[kimmy]

Because it makes Baby Jesus cry.

ok, seriously... I think the church probably doesn't lose that many members to other religions, but probably loses a lot of members to loss of faith. For example, all of my grandparents were very religious people, yet both of my parents are fierce atheists.

I don't think all that many Christians turn into Hindus or Muslims or Sikhs, but a lot of Christians turn into atheists.

-k

Edited January 22, 2009 by kimmy

[WIP]

I was driving past a church today, and read the sign out front: "Atheism isn't merely a denial of the truth, but a suppression of it."

I would have liked to have walked through the door and asked: "how am I suppressing your truth?"

If you think about it, the statement doesn't even make sense! People who believe in a supernatural world are understandably going to view their beliefs as 'truth,' so atheism would therefore be denial of the truth.

Fair enough, but these clowns feel the need to ratchet up the rhetoric to hyper drive, so they go a step further and claim that denying their truth is suppression of the truth. Which means that their truth is so fragile, it can't be rationally defended in the face of denial. And I guess that's why having faith is so important inside the church.

[M.Dancer]

Because it makes Baby Jesus cry. -k

I thought masturbating did that?

[Mr.Canada]

I thought masturbating did that?

Masturbation = fornication.

[Mr.Canada]

I would have liked to have walked through the door and asked: "how am I suppressing your truth?"

If you think about it, the statement doesn't even make sense! People who believe in a supernatural world are understandably going to view their beliefs as 'truth,' so atheism would therefore be denial of the truth.

Fair enough, but these clowns feel the need to ratchet up the rhetoric to hyper drive, so they go a step further and claim that denying their truth is suppression of the truth. Which means that their truth is so fragile, it can't be rationally defended in the face of denial. And I guess that's why having faith is so important inside the church.

Because Atheists aren't simply content with not believing. No, they must put down, make fun of and scold everyone who does believe. That is suppression.

[Pliny]

It rattles people's souls.

Thanks for that!

[Pliny]

Why is atheism seen as such a threat?

Doesn't atheism make you feel lonely, small, insignificant, purposeless, directionless, useless? I suppose if you made atheism your purpose, then you would have a purpose to fulfill, telling others they are really alone, insignificant, purposeless, unimportant, a mere speck of dust in the big scheme of things.

Religion once it becomes dogma and ritual is no longer religion and that is true of atheism as well but both claim truth. Acceptance of any belief system does not mean truth has been found. It simply means you are done looking.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Pliny

[segnosaur]

Doesn't atheism make you feel lonely, small, insignificant, purposeless, directionless, useless?

Not at all. In fact, for some of us, it can actually add purpose and meaning to our lives.

If someone spends all their time believing in an invisible big daddy in the sky and a wonderful afterlife, they may not appreciate what we have hear on earth. By recognizing the fact that there is no evidence of any god (and thus no reason to believe in one), we can strive to make our current, physical world as good as it can be.

I suppose if you made atheism your purpose, then you would have a purpose to fulfill, telling others they are really alone, insignificant, purposeless, unimportant, a mere speck of dust in the big scheme of things.

Here's a question... if we truly are alone (as the evidence seems to suggest), then why is lying to people about 'big invisible sky daddy' a good thing?

Religion once it becomes dogma and ritual is no longer religion and that is true of atheism as well but both claim truth. Acceptance of any belief system does not mean truth has been found. It simply means you are done looking.

The difference is, Atheism is not technically a 'belief'. Belief implies that you think something is true without any evidence. (If you actually had proof, it would be 'knowledge' rather than 'belief'.)

Atheists do not claim that they have evidence that god does not exist... instead, we look at the fact that there is no evidence for any god, just as there is no evidence for the flying sphagetti monster or invisible pink unicorns in my sock drawer. And the default position anyone should take is "If there's no evidence, then I should not believe it".

[sharkman]

Because Atheists aren't simply content with not believing. No, they must put down, make fun of and scold everyone who does believe. That is suppression.

Most atheists aren't simply content with believing that there is no god. This is an unprovable doctrine, and takes faith, much like other religions, which is what atheism really is. So when they make fun of other religions, I suppose they are just keeping the faith.

[OddSox]

Most atheists aren't simply content with believing that there is no god. This is an unprovable doctrine, and takes faith, much like other religions, which is what atheism really is. So when they make fun of other religions, I suppose they are just keeping the faith.

Most atheists? As in any 'ism' - whether it be atheism, islamism, christianism - I think the majority simply go on with their lives, without trying to impose their beliefs on others. Of course, every 'ism' has it's fanatics but I believe they are the minority in almost every case.

And yes, I highly doubt that 'islamism' or 'christianism' are actual words.

[segnosaur]

Most atheists aren't simply content with believing that there is no god. This is an unprovable doctrine, and takes faith, much like other religions, which is what atheism really is.

Do you believe in the Flying Spaghetti monster? Why or why not? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Do you believe there is an invisible pink unicorn living in your sock drawer? Why or why not?

You see, in both of those cases, denying that there isn't a flying spaghetti monster or a pink unicorn isn't so much a 'belief'. We can look at the evidence (or more exactly, the lack of it) and say that we really don't need to believe in the absence of things... our senses (and science) tells us these things.

On the other hand, when someone espouses christianity (or any other religion for that mater), they are expressing a belief in something for which there is no evidence. (Now, I'm sure there will be some individuals who claim evidence, but those claims invariably fall short when you apply the evidence.

Yes, technically, it is true that you can't prove that there is no god (so perhaps the best philosophy is agnostocism). But what you can do is build up a strong enough case of non-observations to say "this belief likely isn't true".

I think the best quote that describes atheism is the following (attributed to Stephan Roberts):

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

[BigAl]

Because it makes Baby Jesus cry.

ok, seriously... I think the church probably doesn't lose that many members to other religions, but probably loses a lot of members to loss of faith. For example, all of my grandparents were very religious people, yet both of my parents are fierce atheists.

I don't think all that many Christians turn into Hindus or Muslims or Sikhs, but a lot of Christians turn into atheists.

-k

Agreed Kimmy. It's a tough question to answer, why atheism is perceived as such a threat...I think it's partly because people of so-called "faith" aren't always as secure in that faith as they like to say they are, so when someone openly admits to believing the opposite of their beliefs, it makes them question themselves. On the other hand, it is true that some atheists (like some people of faith) tend to be critical of those who don't share their beliefs...except with atheism, it's ironically much easier to appear "holier-than-thou" because it's easy to perceive faith as childish or foolish. Frankly I think it's a bunch of hoopla over nothing -- you take the high road, and I'll take the low road, and we'll be in Scotland around the same time.

[eyeball]

Doesn't atheism make you feel lonely, small, insignificant, purposeless, directionless, useless? I suppose if you made atheism your purpose, then you would have a purpose to fulfill, telling others they are really alone, insignificant, purposeless, unimportant, a mere speck of dust in the big scheme of things.

Religion once it becomes dogma and ritual is no longer religion and that is true of atheism as well but both claim truth. Acceptance of any belief system does not mean truth has been found. It simply means you are done looking.

Atheism actually makes me feel fortunate. The more I find out about just how hostile a place our universe is and how unlikely it is that a mere speck should get even a glimpse of it the more fortunate I feel to be one. Neuroscientist Antonio Damasio's description of consciousness as the "feeling of what happens" and Hawking's that its an opportunity for the universe to appreciate itself neatly blends immortality and mortality into one and the same thing for me.

So I wonder if there are any atheists in black-holes? Death and a black hole seem quite similar in some respects. The trip into either is a one way trip and both definitely have an event horizon or a point of no return. But here's the funny part, according to theory as you approach the event horizon you also approach the speed of light at which point time and distance should stretch out in front of you forever. If the brief exhilarating episodes of time dilation I've experienced are anything to go by, a black hole may not be such a bad way to go after all. That said I'm willing to put the experience off for the time being thanks.

I am really looking forward to getting offshore again. The night sky 25 miles off the coast is truly spectacular and about as close to glimpsing forever as it gets and of course there's nothing like an ocean to make you feel like a speck.

[kimmy]

Not at all. In fact, for some of us, it can actually add purpose and meaning to our lives.

If someone spends all their time believing in an invisible big daddy in the sky and a wonderful afterlife, they may not appreciate what we have hear on earth. By recognizing the fact that there is no evidence of any god (and thus no reason to believe in one), we can strive to make our current, physical world as good as it can be.

Indeed.

The idea that nothing matters if there's no afterlife is silly. It's like arguing that life on earth is just the waiting room to get into heaven, then nothing we do matters either. (isn't this essentially the logic behind strapping a bomb to your chest and killing infidels?)

Do you enjoy living? I certainly do. I enjoy the people I love, I enjoy the things I do, I enjoy the world around me. I want to continue to enjoy these things. I want to improve my enjoyment of them, in fact. I meet new people and do my best to improve the relationships with the people I already know. I do lots of things that I find fun or enriching, and I try new things and learn to do new things. I enjoy the world around me in a variety of ways, and in my own small ways I try to take care of it and improve it. I take this view because I believe this is all I have, and all I will ever have. If one is of the view that this is just a place you're stuck for the short term, do you value each day as much as I do?

-k

[Melanie_]

Because Atheists aren't simply content with not believing. No, they must put down, make fun of and scold everyone who does believe. That is suppression.

Actually, I think that is what the church was doing. Now I don't believe every church would do so, therefore I'm not making a blanket statement about all Christians. You, however, are joining them in making a blanket statement about all atheists.

[DFCaper]

Actually, I think that is what the church was doing. Now I don't believe every church would do so, therefore I'm not making a blanket statement about all Christians. You, however, are joining them in making a blanket statement about all atheists.

I do not hold strong religious beliefs, and have more agnostoc or atheist friends than Christian. I also have Muslim and Jewish friends. Comments from the Atheist friends tend to be by far the most offensive. I have never been offended or critized by any other religion than that of Atheism. Maybe most Christians have simular experiences and that's why they they are offended by Atheism. Plus, as we are traditionally a christian society, Atheist seem to be the people leading the charge to remove it.

Not sure why this makes it hard to see why certian church's see Atheism as a threat?!?!?!?!

[cybercoma]

Because it makes Baby Jesus cry.

ok, seriously... I think the church probably doesn't lose that many members to other religions, but probably loses a lot of members to loss of faith. For example, all of my grandparents were very religious people, yet both of my parents are fierce atheists.

I don't think all that many Christians turn into Hindus or Muslims or Sikhs, but a lot of Christians turn into atheists.

-k

Yet still, that doesn't justify the intolerance.

[cybercoma]

Because Atheists aren't simply content with not believing. No, they must put down, make fun of and scold everyone who does believe. That is suppression.

That's funny, last I checked the only requirement for being an atheist was not believing in the existence of gods. Of course, that would make all Christians, Muslims and Jews atheists in regards to the countless other gods that have allegedly existed throughout history. An atheist by today's measure just takes that one god further. You see, there isn't anything an atheist "must" do; however, there is something believers must do. They must believe by faith. That is suppression of free-thought for the individual and without free-thought there can be no truth. Therefore, belief by faith is the suppression of truth. Edited January 22, 2009 by cybercoma

[WIP]

Doesn't atheism make you feel lonely, small, insignificant, purposeless, directionless, useless?

I would interject here that it depends on how a person makes sense of the world around them. Some people (like you presumably) are horrified by the prospect of having a big mysterious world to try to make sense of and find purpose in everyday life. So, someone from your background may at times be bothered by a problem theologians call the 'hiddeness' of God. But the prospect of losing a supernatural overlord who fills in all of the gaps in knowledge and understanding -- says 'you're my most important creation in this big, empty universe, and here's your plan for the rest of your entire life on Earth -- most of the flock are going to respond to their occasional doubts by going to faith-building church services and may even take the time to buy a book by Lee Strobel, Alvin Plantinga, or some other big name theologian who specializes in trying to prove God exists.....anyway, what these people are not going to do is risk committing the unforgivable sin by asking 'what if there is no God up there, and we're all alone down here.'

Now, on the other side, there have always been skeptics, even back during the times of the ancient Greek philosophers like Epicurus. Back then, there were many gaps and unanswered questions about the world, and yet there were people saying that supernatural explanations were not real answers, since they didn't provide any understanding of phenomena, and were waiting for an answer to 'how the world was made' rather than 'who made the world.'

And another factor is that some of us former believers, not only want to do our own discovery, but we noticed that the concept of an omnipotent, omnipresent deity is a 24/7 surveillance camera, constantly watching and judging every thought we have and everything we do. The reason why this doesn't bother most Christians, and adherents to similar religions, is because they spend most of the week with the surveillance camera turned off, not caring a rats a@@ if they are sinning or not! But for people who take it seriously, the constant self-examination and worry about sin is oppressive, and the happiest days of our lives were when we grew up and discovered that there is no supernatural surveillance monitor up there -- then we became free to decide for ourselves how to live happy and fulfilling lives.

I suppose if you made atheism your purpose, then you would have a purpose to fulfill, telling others they are really alone, insignificant, purposeless, unimportant, a mere speck of dust in the big scheme of things.

It's already been said, but you can't make atheism your purpose, because atheism means literally NOT Believing in gods. Some atheists are so focused on the mundane -- what they do in their day to day lives, that they don't want to be bothered with the big questions. But most will start looking for answers in some sort of naturalistic philosophical tradition, which can run the gamut from Communism to Objectivism( the Any Rand kind), but most atheists are in the middle ground, looking for guide plan in some form of humanistic philosophy.

Religion once it becomes dogma and ritual is no longer religion and that is true of atheism as well but both claim truth.

Religion has little to offer besides dogma and ritual. Atheism has neither, so I guess you could make up dogmas and rituals....start with a Flying Spagetti Monster Festival I suppose.

Acceptance of any belief system does not mean truth has been found. It simply means you are done looking.

That may be true if you sign up with a belief system that is too rigid, which is why the only church that I can feel comfortable in is the Unitarian/Universalists, since their statement of principles are not based on agreeing with supernatural claims. All in all, it's a personal thing, if you want to stop looking -- you just stay with what you have -- but there are some of us who consider this to be a lifelong quest that will never end or have final answers.

[WIP]

Because Atheists aren't simply content with not believing. No, they must put down, make fun of and scold everyone who does believe. That is suppression.

And here I thought the Muslims were the only ones who went to this extreme of declaring all questioning and criticism of their doctrines to be direct attacks on religion.

[DFCaper]

And here I thought the Muslims were the only ones who went to this extreme of declaring all questioning and criticism of their doctrines to be direct attacks on religion.

No, just their extremist would want to search you out to kill you.

[sharkman]

Do you believe in the Flying Spaghetti monster? Why or why not? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Do you believe there is an invisible pink unicorn living in your sock drawer? Why or why not?

You see, in both of those cases, denying that there isn't a flying spaghetti monster or a pink unicorn isn't so much a 'belief'. We can look at the evidence (or more exactly, the lack of it) and say that we really don't need to believe in the absence of things... our senses (and science) tells us these things.

On the other hand, when someone espouses christianity (or any other religion for that mater), they are expressing a belief in something for which there is no evidence. (Now, I'm sure there will be some individuals who claim evidence, but those claims invariably fall short when you apply the evidence.

Yes, technically, it is true that you can't prove that there is no god (so perhaps the best philosophy is agnostocism). But what you can do is build up a strong enough case of non-observations to say "this belief likely isn't true".

I think the best quote that describes atheism is the following (attributed to Stephan Roberts):

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

Yes, I've heard of the spaghetti monster, and to compare that or a pink unicorn is a perfect example of what others on this thread are claiming, that Christian beliefs tend to be belittled and made fun of by atheists. Comparing the existence of God, an age old enigma (to some), which is rooted in most cultures to the mockery of a spaghetti monster is silly on top of it all.

If you want to have faith in no God, go ahead, but my senses and the evidence tell me there is a supreme being, you may even have more faith than I in what you believe.