Why so Many Israel Threads?

[jbg]

Israel is a country roughly the size of Prince Edward Island. Canada and Israel don't have any particular linkages, nothing like the U.S. and Israel or the U.S. and Canada. Yet, I see the following topics on the "The Rest of the World" heading:

1. How low can Israeli supporters sink?;
   
2. Do Palestinians, like Israelis, have a right of self-defence?
   
3. Israeli Ceasefire!
   
4. Israelis want peace you say?
   
5. Alberta Tory drops a bombshell on Israel
   
6. Iran making threats against Israel!
   
7. White Phosphorous, Is Israel using it?
   
8. Somalia & Israel;
   
9. The Israeli/Pal. War and Canadian Unions
   
10. Anti-semitism will rise as the Israeli action continues.
    
11. Israeli Ground Attack; and
    
12. Hamas moves on Fatah 'collaborators'
    

I stopped arbitrarily down the page at some point when I ran out of energy. But given what I asked above why so many such threads?

Edited January 18, 2009 by jbg

[DogOnPorch]

Old tactic. You have to fight the same battle dozens of times. Something debunked in one thread brought up again in another.

--------------------------------

Oh Rose Marieeeeeeeeeeee...

---Slim Whitman

Edited January 18, 2009 by DogOnPorch

[noahbody]

You just started another one.

Edited January 18, 2009 by noahbody

[DogOnPorch]

You just started another one.

In theory...yes!

[Mr.Canada]

Because many people on the left hold contempt for Israel and most of the people on this and every board are left wing, socialists.

[jbg]

Because many people on the left hold contempt for Israel and most of the people on this and every board are left wing, socialists.

You're not notably pro-Israel, right?

[wulf42]

I am extremely pro Israel and as far as i am concerned i support them in their struggle against fanatical Islam, i say arm them to the teeth so they can take care of business!!

[dub]

Because many people on the left hold contempt for Israel and most of the people on this and every board are left wing, socialists.

the problem with some people who try to debate politics is that their immaturity and inability to look outside of the black and white world, where the slogan "you're either with us or against us" has become their main talking point, leads to them not being able to grasp the fact that you can be, for example; against israel's disproportional and illegal attacks on gaza and also be against hamas' illegal attacks at the same time.

it's only immature people who turn these things into left wing/socialist vs right wing/fascist.

Edited January 19, 2009 by dub

[Argus]

the problem with some people who try to debate politics is that their immaturity and inability to look outside of the black and white world, where the slogan "you're either with us or against us" has become their main talking point, leads to them not being able to grasp the fact that you can be, for example; against israel's disproportional and illegal attacks on gaza and also be against hamas' illegal attacks at the same time.

Perhaps it would be easier to notice that if thsoe who were against "Israel's disproportional and illegal attacks on gaza" ever bothered to mention it except in passing.

I'm willing to bet none of those so concerned about Israel's "disproportional and illegal attacks" on gaza have started any threads to complain about Hamas rocket attacks on Israel over the past few months.

[BigAl]

Israel is a country roughly the size of Prince Edward Island. Canada and Israel don't have any particular linkages, nothing like the U.S. and Israel or the U.S. and Canada [...] why so many such threads?[/size]

Well...I hate to sound pithy, but if you watch the news, the conflict in that part of the world is a pretty hot-button issue right now, and people tend to be very, very polarized with their opinions on who's "right" and who's "wrong". Being as this is a political message board populated by a lot of smart people who all have something to say on the issue, it's kind of unsurprising to find a lot of threads on this topic. Though I wasn't a member here eight years ago, I'll bet there were a lot of common-topic threads after 9/11 too.

[jbg]

Well...I hate to sound pithy, but if you watch the news, the conflict in that part of the world is a pretty hot-button issue right now, and people tend to be very, very polarized with their opinions on who's "right" and who's "wrong". Being as this is a political message board populated by a lot of smart people who all have something to say on the issue, it's kind of unsurprising to find a lot of threads on this topic. Though I wasn't a member here eight years ago, I'll bet there were a lot of common-topic threads after 9/11 too.

The reason I started the thread was to focus on the disproportionate negative attention Israel receives for self-defense, and the scant attention given to real atrocities. Ditto Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Actions by the truly savage people are ignored, and the efforts of the civilized world to defend itself are villified. One wonders if Rome's defenders received such treatment, i.e. pro-barbarian press?

[dub]

The reason I started the thread was to focus on the disproportionate negative attention Israel receives for self-defense, and the scant attention given to real atrocities. Ditto Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Actions by the truly savage people are ignored, and the efforts of the civilized world to defend itself are villified. One wonders if Rome's defenders received such treatment, i.e. pro-barbarian press?

you have a point. there seems to be a disproportionate attention given to that region while other atrocities are happening around the world.

the reason for this, from my point of view, is that our western governments do not support things like, the rwanda genocide, mugabe's dictatorship or hamas' rocket attacks. however, both the U.S. government and more recently, the minority Harper government support israel's actions even though many of israel's actions go against or are questionable when it comes to international law.

that's the difference and the reason why the israeli/palestinian issue is such a hot button topic.

[tango]

I am extremely pro Israel and as far as i am concerned i support them in their struggle against fanatical Islam, i say arm them to the teeth so they can take care of business!!

It's clear you don't know enough about it to be commenting. There are two sides to this story, and in this case it is clear that Israel has gone too far.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/mi...ls-1452294.html

A Palestinian father has claimed that he saw two of his young daughters shot dead and another critically injured by an Israeli soldier who emerged from a stationary tank and opened fire as the family obeyed an order from the Israeli forces to leave their home.

Khaled Abed Rabbo said Amal, aged two and Suad, seven, were killed by fire from the soldier's semi-automatic rifle. His third daughter, Samer, four, has been evacuated to intensive care in a Belgian hospital after suffering critical spinal injuries which he said were inflicted in the attack early in Israel's ground offensive.

Mr Abed Rabbo stood near the wreckage off his subsequently destroyed home on the eastern edge of the northern Gaza town of Jabalya yesterday and described how a tank had parked outside the building at 12.50pm on 7 January and ordered the family in Arabic through a megaphone to leave building. He said his 60-year-old mother had also been shot at as she left waving her white headscarf with her son, daughter in law and her three grandchildren.

"Two soldiers were on the tank eating chips, then one man came out of the tank with a rifle and started shooting the kids," Mr Abed Rabbo, who receives a salary as a policeman from the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority in Ramallah said. The family say they think the weapon used by the soldier was an M16 and that the first to be shot was Amal. Mr Abed Rabbo said that Suad was then shot with what he claimed were 12 bullets, and then Samer.

The soldier who fired the rifle had what Mr Abed Rabbo thought were ringlets visible below his helmet, he said. The small minority of ultra-Orthodox Jews who serve in the army are in a unit which did not take part in the Gaza offensive and only a very small number of settlers who also favour that hairstyle serve in other units.

It has so far been impossible independently to verify Mr Abed Rabbo's claim and the military said last night Israeli Defence Forces "does not target civilians, only Hamas terrorists and infrastructure". It added: "The IDF is investigating various claims made with regard to Operation Cast Lead and at the end of its investigation will respond accordingly."

...

The soldiers had in the end let the family leave on foot, he said. He added that they walked two kilometres before finding a vehicle to take them to Kamal Adwan Hospital. He said: "I carried Suad, who was dead, my wife carried Amal and my brother Ibrahim carried Samer."

He added: "We are not Hamas. My children were not Hamas. And if they were going to shoot anyone it should have been me." He added: "I want the international community and the International Red Cross to ask Israel why it has done this to us. They talk about democracy but is it democracy to kill children? What did the kids do to them? What did my house do to them? They destroyed my life?

[jbg]

you have a point. there seems to be a disproportionate attention given to that region while other atrocities are happening around the world.

the reason for this, from my point of view, is that our western governments do not support things like, the rwanda genocide, mugabe's dictatorship or hamas' rocket attacks. however, both the U.S. government and more recently, the minority Harper government support israel's actions even though many of israel's actions go against or are questionable when it comes to international law.

that's the difference and the reason why the israeli/palestinian issue is such a hot button topic.

The problem is that the West, by undermining their allies in this manner, emboldens their enemies. My point is that the Israeli "atrocities" are at such a lower level than the other ones you listed that they are different in kind rather than degree.

[capricorn]

The problem is that the West, by undermining their allies in this manner, emboldens their enemies. My point is that the Israeli "atrocities" are at such a lower level than the other ones you listed that they are different in kind rather than degree.

It appears that when there is interaction between Israel and the Palestinians the west pays attention and widespread condemnation of Israel pops up everywhere. This point is addressed in an opinion piece which I linked in another thread. It is a must read.

What's Behind Western Condemnation of Israel's War Against Hamas?

* With a unanimity that has become all too familiar, politicians, the media, NGOs, and church leaders across the globe took their cue to denounce Israel's legitimate act of self-defense against one of the world's most extreme terror organizations. This chorus of disapproval is in stark contrast to the utter indifference to far bloodier conflicts that have been going on around the world.

* Why do citizens in democracies enthusiastically embrace a radical Islamist group that not only seeks the destruction of a fellow democracy but is overtly committed to the substitution of a world-wide Islamic caliphate for the existing international order?

* Decades of mistreatment of the Palestinians by the Arab states have gone virtually unnoticed. Only when they interact with Israel do the Palestinians win the world's attention.

* The fact that international coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict has invariably reflected a degree of intensity and emotional involvement well beyond the normal level to be expected of impartial observers would seem to suggest that it is a manifestation of longstanding prejudice that has been brought out into the open by the conflict.

* The Palestinians are but the latest lightning rod unleashed against the Jews, their supposed victimization reaffirming the millenarian demonization of the Jews in general, and the medieval blood libel - that Jews delight in the blood of others.

http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPag...r_Against_Hamas?

[Yorkness]

Current events.

[dub]

The problem is that the West, by undermining their allies in this manner, emboldens their enemies.

why should israel's enemies be our enemies when they have done nothing to us?

My point is that the Israeli "atrocities" are at such a lower level than the other ones you listed that they are different in kind rather than degree.

i don't know how much lower it is. over 400 children were killed in a 3 week assult on gaza. i wouldn't call that a low atrocity. not to mention the thousands who have been injured and the thousands who have lost a family member and who have lost their homes.

at the end of all of this, 3 israeli civilians were killed and over 700 palestinian civilians were killed. i would call that a one-sided atrocity.

[dub]

It appears that when there is interaction between Israel and the Palestinians the west pays attention and widespread condemnation of Israel pops up everywhere. This point is addressed in an opinion piece which I linked in another thread. It is a must read.

http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPag...r_Against_Hamas?

what complete crap.

north american media in general has accepted the israeli government's response that this is all hamas' fault.

[Higgly]

Well...I hate to sound pithy, but if you watch the news, the conflict in that part of the world is a pretty hot-button issue right now, and people tend to be very, very polarized with their opinions on who's "right" and who's "wrong". Being as this is a political message board populated by a lot of smart people who all have something to say on the issue, it's kind of unsurprising to find a lot of threads on this topic. Though I wasn't a member here eight years ago, I'll bet there were a lot of common-topic threads after 9/11 too.

Exactly. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict has been daily front page news since 1948. Why not ask the press "Why so many stories about Israel?"

[eyeball]

I'm willing to bet none of those so concerned about Israel's "disproportional and illegal attacks" on gaza have started any threads to complain about Hamas rocket attacks on Israel over the past few months.

Bump

Perhaps the complaints against Hamas are proportionate to the level of actual damage their rockets do to Israel but you're right nonetheless. Speaking for myself I'll try to better to address this disproportionality in the future.

I'd like to extend a challenge to people to try and be as neutral as they can about this issue. Its a lot harder than it looks.

[Higgly]

Bump

Perhaps the complaints against Hamas are proportionate to the level of actual damage their rockets do to Israel but you're right nonetheless. Speaking for myself I'll try to better to address this disproportionality in the future.

I'd like to extend a challenge to people to try and be as neutral as they can about this issue. Its a lot harder than it looks.

I'd like to suggest that it's not hard at all. Turn your attention to the Geneva Conventions, to which Israel is a signatory. What is hard about that?

Edited January 30, 2009 by Higgly

[segnosaur]

why should israel's enemies be our enemies when they have done nothing to us?

How about the fact that Israel is a democratic nation where its citizens (regardless of religion) have certain basic rights that are protected by the courts, whereas groups like Hamas are basically armed thugs who have been known to kill people without any sort of legal investigation.

i don't know how much lower it is. over 400 children were killed in a 3 week assult on gaza. i wouldn't call that a low atrocity. not to mention the thousands who have been injured and the thousands who have lost a family member and who have lost their homes.

at the end of all of this, 3 israeli civilians were killed and over 700 palestinian civilians were killed. i would call that a one-sided atrocity.

I wouldn't be so quick to quote those statistics.... the initial casualty estimates were provided by groups within palestine controlled by Hamas. Given the world's experiences in places like Jenine (where initial palestinian estimates of 'hundreds killed' were wildly exagerated), its quite possible that the number was far far lower.

From: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...xaggerated.html

The Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera quoted Gazans claiming that less than 600 people had died in the 22-day attack, far fewer than the 1,300 reported by Palestinian health officials. "It's possible that the death toll in Gaza was 500 or 600 at the most, mainly youths aged 17 to 23 who were enlisted by Hamas – who sent them to their deaths," the newspaper quoted a doctor at the main Shifa hospital as stating. Other residents told the newspaper Hamas gunmen had used medical facilities to organise and co-ordinate attacks.

Granted, at this point we cannot say what the actual death toll is and how many were actual Hamas fighters. (It will likely take weeks before we have a proper accounting.) But relying on data provided by Hamas itself in order to condemn Israel is like relying on the Oil companies for information on global warming.

I could also point out (as I do quite regularly) that there is no international law that states that casualties on both sides of a conflict have to be equal. The main requirement is that civilians not be intentionally targeted. The fact that many of the deaths on the Hamas side were actual fighters, whereas rockets from Hamas seem to fall only in civilian areas suggests that Hamas is the one engaging in 'war crimes'.

[BC_chick]

Israel is a country roughly the size of Prince Edward Island. Canada and Israel don't have any particular linkages, nothing like the U.S. and Israel or the U.S. and Canada. Yet, I see the following topics on the "The Rest of the World" heading:

1. How low can Israeli supporters sink?;
   
2. Do Palestinians, like Israelis, have a right of self-defence?
   
3. Israeli Ceasefire!
   
4. Israelis want peace you say?
   
5. Alberta Tory drops a bombshell on Israel
   
6. Iran making threats against Israel!
   
7. White Phosphorous, Is Israel using it?
   
8. Somalia & Israel;
   
9. The Israeli/Pal. War and Canadian Unions
   
10. Anti-semitism will rise as the Israeli action continues.
    
11. Israeli Ground Attack; and
    
12. Hamas moves on Fatah 'collaborators'
    

I stopped arbitrarily down the page at some point when I ran out of energy. But given what I asked above why so many such threads?

I started thread #4 above because I was genuinely surprised by the findings of the study. It was before the whole Gaza conflict and there wasn't an overabundance of Israel threads.... but you're right.... a whole slew of them surfaced right after the whole "war" incident.

I'm not sure why exactly that happened but I've noticed this very odd phenomenon taking place on political forums, usually it's as current events unfold. You'll notice that during the presidential campaign, all of a sudden Palin/Obama/McCain threads were sprouting up all over the place for some reason. Strange, I know.

Definitely a conspiracy I say.

[Higgly]

How about the fact that Israel is a democratic nation where its citizens (regardless of religion) have certain basic rights that are protected by the courts, whereas groups like Hamas are basically armed thugs who have been known to kill people without any sort of legal investigation.

Sure it is. That's why it builds shtettlements to house Jewish immigrants from any bloody place on the map (hey, I'm a Jew from Mars, give me an apartment!), while it illegally confiscates land from legal title holders.

[segnosaur]

How about the fact that Israel is a democratic nation where its citizens (regardless of religion) have certain basic rights that are protected by the courts, whereas groups like Hamas are basically armed thugs who have been known to kill people without any sort of legal investigation.

Sure it is. That's why it builds shtettlements to house Jewish immigrants from any bloody place on the map (hey, I'm a Jew from Mars, give me an apartment!), while it illegally confiscates land from legal title holders.

Israel may in fact be building settlements illegally (although that certainly isn't set in stone... after all, there are certain rules regarding defense and security which may, or may not, justify settlements.)

For example:

From: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/middleea...ettlements.html

some legal scholars say that Israel, as a country acting in self-defence, has the right to occupy territory when necessary to protect itself. Eugene Rostow, a former undersecretary of state for political affairs in the administration of U.S. President Lyndon Johnson, wrote in 1991 that Israel has a right to have settlements in the West Bank under 1967's UN Security Council Resolution 242

However, even if the settlements were found to be illegal, I would have to say that that particular action is dwarfed by the attrocities committed by groups like Hamas.

Hamas has: Fired rockets aimed at civilian targets (clearly a war crime violation), curtailed freedom of the press, used hospitals and ambulances in its attacks, and has killed, without any trial, its rivals in the Fatah organization. I consider those to be a much much MUCH more significant threat than some settlements that either A: Can be dismanteled if Israel decides to remove them (as they did in the Sinai), or B: can negotiate their existence, with perhaps a land swap within Israel itself.