White Phosphorous

[KeyStone]

There seem to be conflicting reports that Israel is using white phosphorous - a charge which Israel promptly denies.

Do you think that Israel is using it? Or is this just another dirty Palestinian/UN trick?

Thoughts?

[M.Dancer]

They haven't denied it and the Red Cross says there is no evidence that it is being used inappropriately.

Human rights groups have accused Israel of unlawfully using white phosphorous shells against populated areas. The weapon can burn anything it touches and is used to illuminate targets at night or create a smoke screen for day attacks.

The Israeli military has said only that it uses munitions in accordance with international law. The International Committee for the Red Cross has said it has no evidence that Israel has improperly used the shells.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...ernational/home

[KeyStone]

They haven't denied it and the Red Cross says there is no evidence that it is being used inappropriately.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...ernational/home

Well...

"Under international law, white phosphorus is banned for use near civilians, but is permitted for creating a smokescreen."

Gaza is one of the most populated areas in the world.

So, hard to imagine that there is anywhere it can be used that is not near civilians.

I would think that the UN compound filled with international aid workers would constitute 'near civlians', would it not?

[AngusThermopyle]

We use WP in the CAF. What do think makes a tracer round trace?

It seems the ninny crowd are just grasping at any straw that floats by in order to villify the Israeli's. The fact is that just about every millitary force in the world uses willy pete in some capacity or another.

[M.Dancer]

Well...

"Under international law, white phosphorus is banned for use near civilians, but is permitted for creating a smokescreen."

Gaza is one of the most populated areas in the world.

So, hard to imagine that there is anywhere it can be used that is not near civilians.

I would think that the UN compound filled with international aid workers would constitute 'near civlians', would it not?

I would think the IRC which is on the scene would know better than you or I.

Never the less, if there are belligerents there the presence of civilians does not make them immune from attack.

The wonderful thing about the GC articles is although they strive to make warfare as humane as possible and to minimize non combatant casualties, they do not hamstring the warring parties by including clauses that can be exploited by the less diligent.

[Drea]

It seems the ninny crowd are just grasping at any straw that floats by in order to villify the Israeli's.

They don't need anyone to vilify them... they do that perfectly well all by themselves.

If a person (or country) is villainous, do we blame them or do we blame their victims?

Lets say your nasty little brother keeps poking you with a sharp stick, not enough to kill you, just an annoyance and it hurts a bit -- is this cause for you to shoot the nasty little brother?

[M.Dancer]

Hamas fired a WP round into a civilain area day before last. There were no military targets nearby.

You can almost hear the outrage..

[KeyStone]

Hamas fired a WP round into a civilain area day before last. There were no military targets nearby.

You can almost hear the outrage..

Assuming it's true.

Do we have any non-Israeli news sources confirming?

Or is this just the usual obfuscation conveniently coming at a time when Israel gets caught red-handed using white phosphorous.

[M.Dancer]

Assuming it's true.

Do we have any non-Israeli news sources confirming?

Or is this just the usual obfuscation conveniently coming at a time when Israel gets caught red-handed using white phosphorous.

Ap good enough for you?

JERUSALEM (AP) - Israeli police say Hamas militants have fired a phosphorus shell from Gaza into Israel for the first time since war broke out Dec. 27.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld says the mortar shell exploded in a field near the border town of Sderot Wednesday evening. There were no casualties.

Human Rights Watch says Israel has used phosphorous shells, which illuminate targets at night or create a smoke screen for day attacks.

Phosphorus shells can burn anything they touch and pose a threat to non-combatants if used in civilian areas. Israeli says it uses munitions in line with international law.

http://www.pr-inside.com/israel-hamas-fire...ll-r1007317.htm

Interesting phrase you used with no hint of pro hamas bias....Israel caught red handed using legal weapons....nice

[Drea]

the mortar shell exploded in a field

Deliberately targetting a FIELD!

Oh, that poor, poor crop... I am weeping inside.

There were no casualties

No kidding. The shell hit a field.

Isreal makes damn sure every shell kills or maims at least one human being -- preferably hundreds.

I wonder if the Israelis yell "whoo hoo! 10 Points!" every time they hit a civilian -- or "whoo hoo! 25 points!" every time a child is dismembered.

[DogOnPorch]

Deliberately targetting a FIELD!

Oh, that poor, poor crop... I am weeping inside.

No kidding. The shell hit a field.

Isreal makes damn sure every shell kills or maims at least one human being -- preferably hundreds.

I wonder if the Israelis yell "whoo hoo! 10 Points!" every time they hit a civilian -- or "whoo hoo! 25 points!" every time a child is dismembered.

Heh, heh...so true...eh Drea?

-------------------------------------

It's a Daisy.

[Wild Bill]

Deliberately targetting a FIELD!

Oh, that poor, poor crop... I am weeping inside.

No kidding. The shell hit a field.

Isreal makes damn sure every shell kills or maims at least one human being -- preferably hundreds.

I wonder if the Israelis yell "whoo hoo! 10 Points!" every time they hit a civilian -- or "whoo hoo! 25 points!" every time a child is dismembered.

I don't follow your reasoning here, Drea. Are you claiming that Hamas targeted a field? I find that very hard to believe. What I've seen in the media are claims that Hamas is firing rather inaccurate rockets into the general direction of Israeli cities. Mothers tuck their children into shelters at night. A number of innocent civilian parents and children have been killed.

If a shell hit a field, I doubt if Hamas would be proud of their targeting skill! Rather, they'd be disappointed it didn't kill some Israelis.

I just can't agree with your sense of proportion. If Hamas could inflict more civilian casualties on Israel it's certain they would. It's not for lack of trying. They're just doing the best they can with the level of technical armament available to them. It's a cinch that if they had more accurate and powerful weapons they would use them.

As for the intensity of Israeli response, I agree with them! If someone was repeatedly launching random rockets into my neighbourhood and they killed my daughters, I would not be satisfied with simply killing two Hamas daughters. I couldn't care less! I WOULD want as many launchers as possible destroyed, with as many operators as possible along with them. If they used civilians as human shields I would have a moment's empathy but the people of Gaza freely elected Hamas and continue to allow them to govern.

The difference would be that Israel kills civilians only as collateral damage. Hamas is deliberately targeting Israeli civilians. It's just too bad for Hamas that Israel is better at retaliation then Hamas is at provocation.

That in itself is enough for me. When someone targets innocent civilians, on any side of a conflict, then to me they are no longer human beings. They are simply dangerous animals who should be wiped out.

To me it seems that Hamas supporters are just primitive racists. They want to kill Israelis, ANY Israelis! Soldier or school child, it makes no difference. That makes them an abomination, in my eyes.

Edited January 15, 2009 by Wild Bill

[AngusThermopyle]

To me it seems that Hamas supporters are just primitive racists. They want to kill Israelis, ANY Israelis! Soldier or school child, it makes no difference. That makes them an abomination, in my eyes.

Well said Bill. Therein lies the huge difference, the Israeli's try to eliminate Hamas, not the general population.

I find it hard to believe that those who condemn Israel for retaliating against attacks will in the next breath espouse the elimination of an entire country. Personally I believe that Israel is correct in its actions, if someone strikes you, you strike them back twice as hard, or harder. This crap about proportional warfare is just that, crap, nothing more and nothing less. War is not a game of crib, its war and should be waged to be won, not to be popular.

Oh yes, the targetting a field stuff, I don't believe Hamas intended to hit a field, they wanted bodies. Just because they're incompetent and ineffective does not ascribe higher moral values to them.

Edited January 15, 2009 by AngusThermopyle

[Drea]

The difference would be that Israel kills civilians only as collateral damage. Hamas is deliberately targeting Israeli civilians. It's just too bad for Hamas that Israel is better at retaliation then Hamas is at provocation.

Well Israel must be just as incompetent as Hamas in hitting its intended targets. If they are indeed NOT targetting children they sure do hit alot of them.

And Hamas, if indeed they ARE targetting civilians, they sure have trouble hitting them.

How many Palestinian civilians have died in the past 30 days? How many Israeli citizens?

Obviously both sides are competely incompetent and should just lay down their weapons. Best case scenario IMO.

IMO. Israel should do for all Palestinians what we have done for Natives. Tax free status, free housing, free education... the biggest problem is that the Palestinian has nothing to live for -- if you've kill my whole family, I will gladly die to avenge them. And they have nothing to begin with, so why NOT kill the oppressors? They have no jobs, no education, no future but war, so why NOT kill everyone who they percieve to be keeping them oppressed and killing their people.

Israel -- listen up! Give the people hope for the future and you will end the fighting. Continue oppressing people and they will continue to fight you.

Round and round it goes, where it stops, nobody knows.

Edited January 15, 2009 by Drea

[bush_cheney2004]

IMO. Israel should do for all Palestinians what we have done for Natives....

Oh boy...such a deal. Residential Schools and gasoline huffing for PalestIndians.

[KeyStone]

Ap good enough for you?

http://www.pr-inside.com/israel-hamas-fire...ll-r1007317.htm

Interesting phrase you used with no hint of pro hamas bias....Israel caught red handed using legal weapons....nice

AP is good enough for me if the AP actually claims that Hamas fired the shells.

They are not. They are claiming that the Israeli police say that a phosphorous shell landed there.

This is not the same thing. Nice attempt. Perhaps you should spend more time in Israel to learn how to be better at deceit.

Given the IDF has now hit a UN school and UN headquarters, it seems that the much ballyhooed Israeli care and precision for not hitting civilian targets is just a bunch of hogwash.

Of course, everytime that they do hit a civilian target, they always claim that there were terrorists inside.

Will they claim that there were terrorists hiding in the UN Headquarters?

[M.Dancer]

AP is good enough for me if the AP actually claims that Hamas fired the shells. They are not. They are claiming that the Israeli police say that a phosphorous shell landed there.

Now you are just being idiotic

Assuming it's true.

Do we have any non-Israeli news sources confirming?

Who exactly did you expect to report the incident?

Will they claim that there were terrorists hiding in the UN Headquarters?

Because that would never ever happen...

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_s...bollah_flag.jpg

[M.Dancer]

.

This is not the same thing. Nice attempt. Perhaps you should spend more time in Israel to learn how to be better at deceit.

I could take deciet lesson from you...

Lets see...you said that the Israelis denied using WP....

Please find an ISRAELI source that denies it...

You said they were caught "red handed" ...implying some sort of deceipt on the part of Israelis....

You started an OH NOES thread about WP , which is a legal weapon....

The IRC says there is no evidence of the Israelis using it improperly...

Deceipt ....

[Drea]

Better to kill them all in your opinion bc2004 (silly me, of course killing them is the best solution in your wacked-out-sanitized-war-movie of a world. )

We give every native kid every opportunity to be successful. It's not our problem if some of them choose not to take advantage of it.

Perhaps the Israeli's could just get the whole Palestinian popluace hooked on opium (whiskey and pox blankets won't work for these guys!)

Edited January 15, 2009 by Drea

[bush_cheney2004]

Better to kill them all in your opinion bc2004 (silly me, of course killing them is the best solution in your wacked-out-sanitized-war-movie of a world. )

No, but that's what you said about Israeli children. Go figure.....

We give every native kid every opportunity to be successful. It's not our problem if some of them choose not to take advantage of it.

More of the usual sanctimonious crap we get even at First Nations battle for land and natural resource claims. How ironic.

Perhaps the Israeli's could just get the whole Palestinian popluace hooked on opium (whiskey and pox blankets won't work for these guys!)

I'd rather live in Gaza than Davis Inlet.

[Shady]

Do you think that Israel is using it?

I hope so.

[tango]

PROOF:

War in Gaza: UN aid compound set alight ‘by phosphorus shells’

Sheera Frenkel in Jerusalem

Graphic: white phosphorus | How The Times broke the story | Photographic evidence | Spent shells prove use | The burn victims | War in Gaza photojournalism

Israeli forces shelled the headquarters of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency with phosphorus bombs and artillery rounds yesterday, setting fire to the compound and destroying food and humanitarian supplies, officials said.

Thick smoke was still billowing from the building in Gaza City last night as UNRWA workers and firefighters struggled to salvage the food worth millions of pounds. The compound had been used to shelter hundreds of people fleeing Israel’s 20-day offensive in Gaza. Israeli officials said that an end to the fighting was in sight despite the recent escala-tion of the ground offensive.

Chris Gunness, of the UN agency, said: “What more powerful symbol can there be than pallets used for aid being set alight by the fighting? With white phosphorus you cannot put out the flames with water. You need sand, and there is too much fighting for our staff to get sand.” The Israeli military denies using white phosphorus shells, although an investigation by The Timeshas revealed that dozens of Palestinians in Gaza have sustained serious injuries from the substance, which burns at extremely high temperatures.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle5526929.ece

Use of white phosphorus is NOT legal where there are people, soldiers or civilians. It's only legal to use for light or smokescreen purposes.

Israel is using it as an incendiary to light medical supplies, food and people on fire.

This is a war crime, and will be treated as such by the International Court.

Israel is also lying about it.

Edited January 16, 2009 by tango

[Shady]

It's only legal to use for light or smokescreen purposes.

That's what they're using it for. They have troops on the ground.

[segnosaur]

PROOF:

War in Gaza: UN aid compound set alight ‘by phosphorus shells’

Sheera Frenkel in Jerusalem

...

Use of white phosphorus is NOT legal where there are people, soldiers or civilians. It's only legal to use for light or smokescreen purposes.

Israel is using it as an incendiary to light medical supplies, food and people on fire.

Seems like the Red Cross (you know, that humanitarian group, not exactly a pro-Israeli source) disagrees. It has stated the following:

The international Red Cross said Tuesday that Israel has fired white phosphorus shells in its offensive in the Gaza Strip, but has no evidence to suggest the incendiary agent is being used improperly or illegally.

(from : http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090114/ap_on_...te_phosphorus_2 )

[Oleg Bach]

My dad told me about the use of Phosphorous during WW 2 ...He said the stuff was horrific - a man would be burning alive...There were vain attempts to submerge the victim in water to put it out...no matter how long he was in the water - once he was out the fire would continue..there was no escaping this scourge.