How low can Israeli supporters sink

[KeyStone]

I, of course, have no way of knowing conclusively that Hamas is or isn't firing rockets from these places. I have to go with what the media tells me as I have no intention of going there to find out for myself.

I have to ask though, what would be the point of Israel bombing such places if there was no threat from that area?

Obviously, I have no way of knowing either.

However, as for Israel's motives, there are a few considerations.

1) Although they pay lip service to being extremely careful with their targeting, the number of schools, hospitals and women/children they have killed would seem to say otherwise. Perhaps these are just mistakes, and Israel is covering up by saying that rockets were fired from them, in the same way that a cop who shoots a civilian, would say that he thought they were pulling a gun on him.

2) Collective punishment is nothing new for Israel. They have demolished orchards, homes, and generally waged an economic war on Gaza.

It isn't that much of a stretch for them to kill women and children intentionally, to send a message to Hamas. Kill our women and children, and we will kill yours. If you target our civilians, we will target theirs.

3) Perhaps they want to kill the terrorists only, but don't know how since the missile launchers don't stand around in a field waving a big Hamas flag. So instead, they basically kill anything they can find and send the message that if they can't figure out who did it, they'll just punish everyone, kind of like the teacher who keeps the whole class after school because she can't figure out who fired the spitball.

Hamas might be doing it, because they wrongly assumed that Israel had enough respect for human life that they wouldn't bomb a school.

Or, as you say, they might be doing it, hoping to see a school blown up for propaganda reasons, although I find this unbelieveable.

Now, neither you nor I nor anyone on this board, can say definitively whether Hamas is firing rockets from schools and hospitals.

It's possible. However, when you have two sides in a conflict and only one side is telling the truth, a good indication of who is lying is the side trying to block international observers and foreign journalists.

Here are some examples:

If you are trying to decide who is lying between Mugabe and Tsangarai. - it is Mugabe blocking foreign journalists.

If you are trying to decide who is lying between North and South Korea - it is North Korea that bans foreign journalists.

So, if you are trying to decide who is lying betwen Israel and Palestine - do a search on 'banning foreign journalists' and see whose name comes up most prominently. If it's Palestine, then it would seem that the Palestinians have something to hide. If it's Israel, then it would seem that Israel has something to hide.

[Drea]

Wow, now that is rabid zealotry to say the least. I can't imagine wishing nukes on any nation, even 'Palestine'

But Scriblett, in order to be "humane" war must be "total". That's what a jew says not me. I just happen to side with the thousands of dead children...

Tough titty to the zionist apologists ... Isreal will eventually get what it deserves. Someone is going to get a nuke in and detonate it.

Did you veiw the photographs? Do you think those are a bunch of Palestinian actors? If so, man they are soooo good! So realistic they really ought to think about giving Hollywood a shot, dontcha think?

Amazing how a people so poor can come up with so much fake blood and fake torn off limbs and fake babies buried in rubble. Utterly amazing. Wonder how much they get paid for their incredible acting abilities. Why I bet they make more than Anglina Jolie AND Brad Pitt combined!

[sharkman]

Wow, now that is rabid zealotry to say the least. I can't imagine wishing nukes on any nation, even 'Palestine'

Yes, but according to Drea, Israel deserves a nuke. This reminds me of why most of the time it's a good thing that women are not near the button. Too emotional...

[KeyStone]

It is a sad and tragic incident.....but sorry to say, Rachel is responsible for her own death.

And I've come to that conclusion by reading the information you've provided.

Well, of course Rachel is responsible for her own death.

After all, she risked her life to try and stop Israelis from bulldozing homes.

So she is responsible for her own death, in the same way that Canadian soldiers are responsible for their own deaths by signing up to the military, and police officers are responsible for their own deaths for signing up to protect people.

[DogOnPorch]

Well, of course Rachel is responsible for her own death.

After all, she risked her life to try and stop Israelis from bulldozing homes.

So she is responsible for her own death, in the same way that Canadian soldiers are responsible for their own deaths by signing up to the military, and police officers are responsible for their own deaths for signing up to protect people.

The house Rachel was 'protecting' was near the Rafah crossing where tunnels are dug from houses close to the border to Egypt. Any house built within a certain distance is destroyed...period. That still doesn't stop the tunnels...just makes them harder to dig. You can go to Google Maps and see this zone close-up.

Here's a short documentary from Journeyman Pictures re: the building of the tunnels (French source).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9IL86T6Nc8

As you see, not everyone is upset by the 'blockade'.

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It's a daisy.

[Topaz]

Today on the BBCTV I listen to an interview with the former foreign minister to Israel and he said even though he is sorry for the killing of women and children that Israel will NOT stop shooting until Hamas gives up. The interviewer said, even if you are killing children?? and he said they tell Hamas which buildings they are going to shot so they can get the people out. I find that hard to believe!

[KeyStone]

Today on the BBCTV I listen to an interview with the former foreign minister to Israel and he said even though he is sorry for the killing of women and children that Israel will NOT stop shooting until Hamas gives up. The interviewer said, even if you are killing children?? and he said they tell Hamas which buildings they are going to shot so they can get the people out. I find that hard to believe!

Well, if they tell Hamas, why not tell the whole world, so that they can prove that they let Hamas know in advance.

Just make a press statement and say" Tomorrow, we are going to bomb the UN school. The day after that, we'll take out a couple of hospitals.

Why not make it public, so that they can really prove how sincere they are in avoiding civilian casualties?

It doesn't make any sense to me, but Israeli supporters are so fervent in their belief, that the lies don't even have to be remotely plausible to be believed.

[KeyStone]

The house Rachel was 'protecting' was near the Rafah crossing where tunnels are dug from houses close to the border to Egypt. Any house built within a certain distance is destroyed...period. That still doesn't stop the tunnels...just makes them harder to dig. You can go to Google Maps and see this zone close-up.

Here's a short documentary from Journeyman Pictures re: the building of the tunnels (French source).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9IL86T6Nc8

As you see, not everyone is upset by the 'blockade'.

----------------------------------------------------

It's a daisy.

Maybe, maybe not. Israel has all kinds of reasons for knocking down homes - many of which are created after the fact.

The fact is Rachel Corrie, an Amiercan citizen had a bright orange jacket and a megaphone, and the driver claims he couldn't see or hear her.

If his vision and hearing are that obscured, perhaps he should not be driving into a civilian area then?

[bush_cheney2004]

The fact is Rachel Corrie, an Amiercan citizen had a bright orange jacket and a megaphone, and the driver claims he couldn't see or hear her.

So what? You think it would have made any difference if she was a peace loving Canadian?

If his vision and hearing are that obscured, perhaps he should not be driving into a civilian area then?

People are killed without any political malice in common industrial accidents. Maybe Rachel should have joined a better union.

[KeyStone]

People are killed without any political malice in common industrial accidents. Maybe Rachel should have joined a better union.

Well, if you are in Canada, and you are wearing a bright orange jacket and screaming with a megaphone, and you still get run over by a bulldozer - they don't call it in industrial accident - they call it murder.

[wulf42]

But Scriblett, in order to be "humane" war must be "total". That's what a jew says not me. I just happen to side with the thousands of dead children...

Tough titty to the zionist apologists ... Isreal will eventually get what it deserves. Someone is going to get a nuke in and detonate it.

Oh now i see!!! Its okay for someone to say something about Nuclear weapons as long as they are used against Israel?? Where is our great heros now Dancer and guyser

to the rescue now...oh thats right it is Israel we are talking about, i guess if someone wishes a Nuclear holocaust on Israel that is acceptable, well i will tell you the day some terrorist group or more likely nation launches an attack on Israel it will be the last thing that country will ever do

considering Israel is the ONLY middle East Nation with Nuclear weapons 400+ to be more accurate. I can t believe the anti semitic sediment on here!

Edited January 12, 2009 by wulf42

[M.Dancer]

I can t believe the anti semitic sediment on here!

There's layers and layers of it.

For the record, the reason I don't respond to Drea's idiotic ramblings is because I have put her froth and spittle on ignore.

[KeyStone]

Oh now i see!!! Its okay for someone to say something about Nuclear weapons as long as they are used against Israel?? Where is our great heros now Dancer and guyser

to the rescue now...oh thats right it is Israel we are talking about, i guess if someone wishes a Nuclear holocaust on Israel that is acceptable, well i will tell you the day some terrorist group or more likely nation launches an attack on Israel it will be the last thing that country will ever do

considering Israel is the ONLY middle East Nation with Nuclear weapons 400+ to be more accurate. I can t believe the anti semitic sediment on here!

I figured there would be plenty enough people to call Drea on it.

Obviously, nuking Israel would be wrong, and would be a terrible mistake for whoever did it.

That would be a disproportionate escalation of violence, much like how the Israelis have had a disproportionate escalation of violence.

Both actions are wrong, although a nuke, would be even more wrong.

This isn't anti-semitism. This is anti-Israel, but regardless, it is a flagrant disrespect for life.

There are plenty of posters on these boards, who display an equal level of disrespect for the lives of Palestinians.

[wulf42]

Obviously, nuking Israel would be wrong, and would be a terrible mistake for whoever did it.

That would be a disproportionate escalation of violence, much like how the Israelis have had a disproportionate escalation of violence.

It would be alot more than that, if any nation or terrorist group if foolish enough to let the Nuclear Genie out of the bottle God help us all!

[wulf42]

There's layers and layers of it.

For the record, the reason I don't respond to Drea's idiotic ramblings is because I have put her froth and spittle on ignore.

well i guess we both agree on that then! that is extreme even by my standards......lol

[JerrySeinfeld]

I hope Iran nukes them.

See this (above) is the crux of it, while most people don't realize it.

If anything, Israel is showing restraint in it's retaliation. This is a country that is surrounded on all sides by people who want to destroy it, and to kill everyone inside of it.

None of these supposed "hamas" apologists suchy as drea have ever had to live life like that. For them, the palestinian / Israeli dispute is just another excuse for cultural self-flagellation at granola left wing Phd. cocktail parties.

But for Israel, the threat of death and destruction is real everyday because of the animals that live on all sides of them.

So again I state: Israel is showing restraint.

Let's face it: if this was a true war between opposing sides, it would have been over a long time ago. The only reason Hamas lives to fight another day is because Israel allows it to.

I'd much rather see Israel continue it's bombing campaigns.

And what a joke it is for the cowards in Hamas and palestine to complain about childeren and civilians dying when they themselves are bringing it on by hiding behind childeren in the first place.

Meanwhile the apologists like drea would allow Hamas to hide their arms, launch their rockets from schoolgrounds while Israel is expected to fight with one hand tied behind it's back? Hilariously hilarious.

If the cowards in Hamas choose to hide in schools and civilians areas surrounded by childeren, then the consequences will be fatal for those childeren.

Let the war continue. Israel should march right on through into Jordan and meet the US troops half way. Then we'll see how many rockets make their way from Iran to Gaza.

Bush finally shattered the illusion of peace that was willfully upheld by palestinians, Iranians, Syrians and Jordanians who would see Israel destroyed by the silent and ongoing rocketfire.

Now it's up to Israel and Obama to finish it.

Let 'er rip boys!

[guyser]

Where is our great heros now Dancer and guyser

to the rescue now..

Somebody call for a super hero? Sorry, I have been out fighting crime and injustice on the East Coast.

Its drea dude , I dont bother much anymore.

Like the sun rising in the east, everyday, drea's posts can be counted on being stupid or ignorant, everyday.

[sharkman]

Well, if they tell Hamas, why not tell the whole world, so that they can prove that they let Hamas know in advance.

Just make a press statement and say" Tomorrow, we are going to bomb the UN school. The day after that, we'll take out a couple of hospitals.

Why not make it public, so that they can really prove how sincere they are in avoiding civilian casualties?

It doesn't make any sense to me, but Israeli supporters are so fervent in their belief, that the lies don't even have to be remotely plausible to be believed.

Apparently this won't make any sense to you either, since you keep projecting a non nutbar mind set on Hamas, whose members want to become martyrs by killing themselves and wiping out as many Jews as they can in the process. Hint: reasonable people don't think this way.

If they warn Hamas and the world about which buildings are getting bombed tomorrow, said building will be emptied of weapons and stockpiled with people so as to get as much media coverage as possible(If it bleeds it leads).

And while I'm at it, let me also provide another tidbit that won't make any sense to you: Hamas has never tried to limit civilian casualties in any of their attacks. Why Israel gave more land to Palestine is beyond me. I say they should take it all back, and start lobbing unguided rockets into Palestinian areas on a daily basis. but of course then the MSM would cover every single rocket like its a shuttle launching.

There will never be peace over there until Israel's enemies want it. And what they want is Israel to be wiped off the map.

Edited January 12, 2009 by sharkman

[wulf42]

Somebody call for a super hero? Sorry, I have been out fighting crime and injustice on the East Coast.

Its drea dude , I dont bother much anymore.

Like the sun rising in the east, everyday, drea's posts can be counted on being stupid or ignorant, everyday.

lol..........well good we need it here in Halifax, this is the first i have read from Drea and your right they are kinda extreme!

[KeyStone]

Apparently this won't make any sense to you either, since you keep projecting a non nutbar mind set on Hamas, whose members want to become martyrs by killing themselves and wiping out as many Jews as they can in the process. Hint: reasonable people don't think this way.

If they warn Hamas and the world about which buildings are getting bombed tomorrow, said building will be emptied of weapons and stockpiled with people so as to get as much media coverage as possible(If it bleeds it leads).

I think you're missing the point Sharkman, Israel already claims that they tell Hamas where they are going to attack.

I'm saying, if Hamas already knows, then tell the rest of the world too so that there is no doubt as to Israel's intentions to warn people in advance. Who knows if Hamas even passes that info on to the people of Palestine?

See the previous posts for the context.

And while I'm at it, let me also provide another tidbit that won't make any sense to you: Hamas has never tried to limit civilian casualties in any of their attacks. Why Israel gave more land to Palestine is beyond me. I say they should take it all back, and start lobbing unguided rockets into Palestinian areas on a daily basis. but of course then the MSM would cover every single rocket like its a shuttle launching.

Please stop whining about the MSM hating Israel. It's just too ridiculous for words.

You don't really think that Palestinians have more influence over the world media than Israelis do you?

It's just beyond absurd. Surely, you can think of more creative lies than that to justify the murder of women and children.

Shouldn't be hard, since the defenders of killing chidlren, recycle the same lies.

There will never be peace over there until Israel's enemies want it. And what they want is Israel to be wiped off the map.

It's a complicated situation, but if you really think that it's all one-sided and Israel is ever so innocent in all of this, then you are just being ridiculous.

[DogOnPorch]

Maybe, maybe not. Israel has all kinds of reasons for knocking down homes - many of which are created after the fact.

The fact is Rachel Corrie, an Amiercan citizen had a bright orange jacket and a megaphone, and the driver claims he couldn't see or hear her.

If his vision and hearing are that obscured, perhaps he should not be driving into a civilian area then?

Any cites for the Israeli's 'fabricated facts'? I know the Arabs have a huge false news industry...but I've yet to find evidence of it on the Israeli side since they have a free press and all. Some lucky reporter would be getting a Pulitzer for exposing this.

Israel knocked down this house (and many others) because of it's proximity to the Egyptian border. As mentioned, you can see the remains of foundations on Google maps where houses were built a wee bit too close to the line. If you'd bothered to watch that film, you'd have a better knowledge of this particular subject.

As for Rachel Corrie being American with a bullhorn...so what? Much like HAMAS, if you want to play at war, make sure you bring your own body-bag. Being that she was new to this standing in front of operating bulldozers game, you'd think her ISM handlers would have warned her that Israelis don't f#@k around. Myself, I avoid the business end of back-hoes and such.

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Mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun.

---Noel Coward

[sharkman]

I think you're missing the point Sharkman, Israel already claims that they tell Hamas where they are going to attack.

I'm saying, if Hamas already knows, then tell the rest of the world too so that there is no doubt as to Israel's intentions to warn people in advance. Who knows if Hamas even passes that info on to the people of Palestine?

See the previous posts for the context.

Please stop whining about the MSM hating Israel. It's just too ridiculous for words.

You don't really think that Palestinians have more influence over the world media than Israelis do you?

It's just beyond absurd. Surely, you can think of more creative lies than that to justify the murder of women and children.

Shouldn't be hard, since the defenders of killing chidlren, recycle the same lies.

It's a complicated situation, but if you really think that it's all one-sided and Israel is ever so innocent in all of this, then you are just being ridiculous.

You completely ignored the point about Hamas not caring about any civilians they kill. Which is odd since you are very concerned about innocent life. And then you call me ridiculous. Have you ever heard about the proverbial pot calling the kettle black?

Yes I know Israel informs of some attacks, but I thought it obvious that they don't tip their hand about everything. I'm not sure if you doubt this completely or only partly, so we are not that far apart on this issue.

So, to sum up, you accuse me of lying, being absurd and being ridiculous. It's too bad you pepper your comments with such shrill filler, you might find people give more weight to your words if you treat others with respect.

[wulf42]

The Palistianians could end all this very easliy by a few steps

1. Stop supporting Hamas (Israel will never deal with a terrorist group)

2. Stop sending over suicide bombers every chance they get (why should Israel open check points and allow to them to go freely from Gaza into Israel when they carry bombs)

3. Accept Israel as a country (this would create a chance for trust to grow between the two)

If the Palistianians did these three things Israel would in turn let their guard down a bit, relax restrictions and be alot more willing to listen to and address Palistianian concerns and living conditions would improve dramatically for the Palistianians and this bloodshed would stop!

Edited January 12, 2009 by wulf42

[KeyStone]

Any cites for the Israeli's 'fabricated facts'? I know the Arabs have a huge false news industry...but I've yet to find evidence of it on the Israeli side since they have a free press and all. Some lucky reporter would be getting a Pulitzer for exposing this.

Do you really have any proof of Arabs false news industry?

Or, just a lot of Israelis spinning things?

Who knows. There are hundreds of sites each way, claiming the other side is a liar.

But, let's take a look at this Israeli free press that you are so supportive of.

Do you remember an Israeli citizen by the name of Mordechai Vanunu?

He told the world that Israel had been lying about nuclear weapons, and had developed them.

Israel kidnapped him in Italy and made him serve 18 years in prison for his free speech.

Even today, he is not allowed to speak to foreign press, and not allowed to leave Israel.

Israel knocked down this house (and many others) because of it's proximity to the Egyptian border. As mentioned, you can see the remains of foundations on Google maps where houses were built a wee bit too close to the line. If you'd bothered to watch that film, you'd have a better knowledge of this particular subject.

I'm not watching a 25 minute film so that I can respond to your post. I get it. They dig tunnels to smuggle stuff in - mainly because of the sanctions against them that make it impossible to get the most basic goods. I saw the first few minutes, so what?

As for Rachel Corrie being American with a bullhorn...so what? Much like HAMAS, if you want to play at war, make sure you bring your own body-bag. Being that she was new to this standing in front of operating bulldozers game, you'd think her ISM handlers would have warned her that Israelis don't f#@k around. Myself, I avoid the business end of back-hoes and such.

Hey, if Israel wants to admit that they killed her because they didn't like her meddling and didn't care if she was killed.fine.

But they don't. They stick to the story that they couldn't see the 23 year old woman in an orange fluorescent jacket with a megaphone.

Just one of many examples of Israel's deplorable lies.

[DogOnPorch]

Oh, please...they were caught red handed several times.

Remember Lebanon? Green Helmet...Beirut in flames. Same deal as al-Durrah and 155mm howitzer strikes on families sitting at the beach. You can not trust Hamas and Hezbollah news sources...not because I say so...but because they were proved false on prior occasions.

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It's a Daisy.