Barts Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) The prime argument justifying Israel's attack on Gaza is that Israel not only has a right but also an obligation to defend itself and its citizens. Do the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank have similar rights and obligations? For the record, Israel has wreaked far more death and destruction (on the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories than they have on Israel. If the Palestinians have the same right of self-defense as Israel, how are any of the Palestinians or Hamas's actions against Israel worthy of censure in the present context and history of hostilities? If they don't have a right of self-defense like Israel, why don't they? Edited January 8, 2009 by Barts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 The prime argument justifying Israel's attack on Gaza is that Israel not only has a right but also an obligation to defend itself and its citizens. Do the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank have similar rights and obligations? For the record, Israel has wreaked far more death and destruction (on the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories than they have on Israel.If the Palestinians have the same right of self-defense as Israel, how are any of the Palestinians or Hamas's actions against Israel worthy of censure in the present context and history of hostilities? If they don't have a right of self-defense like Israel, why don't they? I don't think firing rockets into Israel from Gaza meets the defenition of 'defence' However the IDF invasion of Gaza to stop Hamas fring rockets into Isreal does meet the definition of 'defence' pretty straitforward really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barts Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I don't think firing rockets into Israel from Gaza meets the defenition of 'defence'However the IDF invasion of Gaza to stop Hamas fring rockets into Isreal does meet the definition of 'defence' pretty straitforward really. Are you saying that the Palestinians do not have the right of self-defense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keepitsimple Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Are you saying that the Palestinians do not have the right of self-defense? It's a silly...no, it's a stupid argument. It's the same as many other threads....who threw the first punch? I'm sure if I said that Hamas threw the first punch by continuously launching rockets into Israel - you would say that's not what started it.....and around and around we go....just like many, many other threads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barts Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 It's a silly...no, it's a stupid argument. It's the same as many other threads....who threw the first punch? I'm sure if I said that Hamas threw the first punch by continuously launching rockets into Israel - you would say that's not what started it.....and around and around we go....just like many, many other threads. I'm posing a very simple question, do Palestinians have the right to self-defense? Why do you and Peter F have so much trouble answering a very simple question? Either, in your view, Palestinians, like all peoples according to international law, have a right to self-defense or they don't. It seems, in your view, they don't. If I'm not misstating your view, why don't they? Not withstanding current events, if you have any knowledge of history, even recent history, you know that the Palestinians have been more sinned against than sinned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I'm posing a very simple question, do Palestinians have the right to self-defense? Why do you and Peter F have so much trouble answering a very simple question? Either, in your view, Palestinians, like all peoples according to international law, have a right to self-defense or they don't. It seems, in your view, they don't. If I'm not misstating your view, why don't they?Not withstanding current events, if you have any knowledge of history, even recent history, you know that the Palestinians have been more sinned against than sinned. If you could, can you describe the Palestinian Arab's first leader, please? ------------------------------ It's a Daisy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barts Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 If you could, can you describe the Palestinian Arab's first leader, please?------------------------------ It's a Daisy. What has your question got to do with the topic? Do Palestinians, like Israelis, and indeed like every human being have the right of self-defense? Why is this such a difficult question to answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 What has your question got to do with the topic? Do Palestinians, like Israelis, and indeed like every human being have the right of self-defense? Why is this such a difficult question to answer? I guess that's a 'no'. ------------------ It's a Daisy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstone Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Of course Palestinians have the right to self defense.........in the event they are attacked by outsiders.Surgical military strikes in my opinion do not constitute all out war. Barts,are you even aware of the reasons for Israel's military action in Gaza?Will you show some courage and address the issue of the rockets coming from Gaza?THIS IS WHAT PRECIPITATED THE ISRAELI RESPONSE!What part of this do you not get? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 What has your question got to do with the topic? Just seeing what you actually know about the subject. A lot of folks come here saying Israel = Bad yet can't describe the events of the Six Day War, etc. ---------------------------------- It's a Daisy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barts Posted January 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 (edited) Of course Palestinians have the right to self defense....... We seem to have at least one person, but not all it would seem, who allows that the Palestinians, like all peoples, have the right to self-defense. The corollary to that right is that what constitutes self-defense must be determined by the person or nation being attacked, not by the attacker. Do you not agree? Do the Israelis give the right to determine their self-defense to the Palestinians? No. Ought the Palestinians give their right of self-defense to the determination of the Israelis? Edited January 9, 2009 by Barts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 We seem to have at least one person who allows that the Palestinians, like all peoples, have the right to self-defense. The corollary to that right is that what constitutes self-defense must be determined by the person or nation being attacked, not by the attacker. Do you not agree? Huh? Someone gets to assume the role of self-defender? Well of course thats true. Usually everyone in a conflict assumes that role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Are you saying that the Palestinians do not have the right of self-defense? Thank you for pointing out that I did not address your question. Everyone in the world has a right of self-defense. Just as the IDF can invade Gaza to defend themselves from rocket attacks, Palestinians in Gaza can fight tooth and nail to defend themselves from IDF invasion. So everyone has a right to self defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkness Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 What has your question got to do with the topic? Do Palestinians, like Israelis, and indeed like every human being have the right of self-defense? Why is this such a difficult question to answer? It is so difficult to answer because you are looking for a "yes" to your question to have an excuse to go on a tyrade about israel's actions. I think the question is reasonable but too simple for the present israel-gaza situation. A simple yes/no question does'nt allow the multiple and complex issues to be taken sufficiently into consideration. Of course the Palestinians have a right to self-defense but that defense, while it is a right, can be considered a privelege when they are the agressor. Then, if overpowered, they must earn that right again, as they have compromised it. One could say that HAMAS is acting in self-defence as israel could possibly be agressing Gaza by occupying Palestinian land and building settlements, for example, but the Palestinian side is hard to defend because their rocket attacks are directed at random locations. That is more like terrorism than necessitarian war. Unfortunately though, you could then turn around and say that Gaza is limited in resources, and they can only afford to attempt random rocket attacks to continue the "resistence", or they could resort to diplomacy....I'm afraid israel is also guilty of random, terrorist-like attacks as well, at least by their civilians. So neither they are too innocent. In the end, the israeli response is more notably reactive, while HAMAS appears to have no legitimate defense for their terrorist-like rocket attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 It is so difficult to answer because you are looking for a "yes" to your question to have an excuse to go on a tyrade about israel's actions. Yes...it's a bit like the old Groucho Marx gag: "So...do you still beat your wife?" I enjoy a good scrum about Israel and Palestine as much as any but at least be a tad subtle... ----------------------------- (Moe realizes that the plane they've built is too large to make it out of the hangar, so he decides the cut the hangar's walls...) Moe: We got a cutting job to do. Get some saws. (Curly begins to saw on the plane's wings...) Moe: Hey, you nitwit! Don't saw the wings, you saw the garage! Curly: I see the garage, but I don't saw the garage. You are speaking incorrectly. You are moidering the King's English, et cetera, see, saw, seen... Moe: (angered) You saw one side and Larry'll saw the other. Curly: Oh, I see. I saw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 We seem to have at least one person, but not all it would seem, who allows that the Palestinians, like all peoples, have the right to self-defense. The corollary to that right is that what constitutes self-defense must be determined by the person or nation being attacked, not by the attacker. Do you not agree?Do the Israelis give the right to determine their self-defense to the Palestinians? No. Ought the Palestinians give their right of self-defense to the determination of the Israelis? Of course the Palestinians have the right to self defense they are however are doing a piss poor job of it. The IDF has steam rolled them. If there are IDF troops inside Gaza or the west bank, they are fair game. However, due to Hamas being a pathetic war machine, it doesn't even look like they are defending themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barts Posted January 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Of course the Palestinians have the right to self defense they are however are doing a piss poor job of it. The IDF has steam rolled them.If there are IDF troops inside Gaza or the west bank, they are fair game. However, due to Hamas being a pathetic war machine, it doesn't even look like they are defending themselves. What if there are no IDF troops in Gaza or the West Bank, and Israel attacks with F-16s and Apache helicopters? What is "fair game" for Palestinian forces then? Are they allowed, in your world view, to attack targets inside Israel? If not, why not? And are they allowed, as Israel does, to incur civilian casualties without regard? For the record, the IDF is supplied by the United States, such that it is in effect an extension of the the American military. If the IDF "steam rolled them" as you so colorfully and casually put the horror, it's for this reason. If Israel had to raise and supply its own army, Israel would not exist, would not even have been able to displace the peoples of Palestine in '48. Israel is a colony of the United States and survives at the pleasure of Americans. The fact that, given the overwhelming military superiority Israel enjoys, Israel is unable to defeat either Hamas or Hezbollah, which is the stated goal, should worry it. To survive as a nation, Israel will have to do more than resort to force and oppression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barts Posted January 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 ... the Palestinian side is hard to defend because their rocket attacks are directed at random locations. That is more like terrorism than necessitarian war. Unfortunately though, you could then turn around and say that Gaza is limited in resources, and they can only afford to attempt random rocket attacks to continue the "resistence", or they could resort to diplomacy....I'm afraid israel is also guilty of random, terrorist-like attacks as well, at least by their civilians. So neither they are too innocent. In the end, the israeli response is more notably reactive, while HAMAS appears to have no legitimate defense for their terrorist-like rocket attacks. Would you feel differently about Hamas's resistance against Israeli aggression if Iran or some other nation supplied the Palestinian with more sophisticated weapons so that the could target as Israel does? Israel, of course, owes its military superiority to American aid. Lastly, it's not possible to argue that "israeli response is more notably reactive" without denying or being unaware of the history and evolution of the Israel / Palestine conflict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 I'm posing a very simple question, do Palestinians have the right to self-defense? Why do you and Peter F have so much trouble answering a very simple question? Either, in your view, Palestinians, like all peoples according to international law, have a right to self-defense or they don't. It seems, in your view, they don't. If I'm not misstating your view, why don't they?Not withstanding current events, if you have any knowledge of history, even recent history, you know that the Palestinians have been more sinned against than sinned. You seem to be confusing defence with offence. Of course they have a right to defend themselves, they have a right to defend themselves even if by their offensive actions they invite a defensive retaliatory response. They also have the right to be killed for their trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barts Posted January 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 You seem to be confusing defence with offence. Of course they have a right to defend themselves, they have a right to defend themselves even if by their offensive actions they invite a defensive retaliatory response. They also have the right to be killed for their trouble. You are aware, M.Dancer, that the pronoun "they" in your quote can refer equally to the Israelis and Palestinians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 You are aware, M.Dancer, that the pronoun "they" in your quote can refer equally to the Israelis and Palestinians. Just so there is no more confusion or your part the pronoun "they" in my post refers to Hamas, a political party with a private militia.. that if they wish to attack, they have the priviledge of accepting the consquences....whether private militias have an inherint right to either attack or defend is moot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkness Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Would you feel differently about Hamas's resistance against Israeli aggression if Iran or some other nation supplied the Palestinian with more sophisticated weapons so that the could target as Israel does? Israel, of course, owes its military superiority to American aid.Lastly, it's not possible to argue that "israeli response is more notably reactive" without denying or being unaware of the history and evolution of the Israel / Palestine conflict. I never tend to delve into history as I prefer to understand the world in it's currency. It is possible to understand further the actions of the present with reference to the past but one should not justify present action with a past occurence. I believe you may be citing the tactics used in the creation of israel. I, in my post, cited a possible historical reason that could justify, in their minds, the response of HAMAS. If Iran were involved it is hard to tell what could happen. Lets say that Palestine and israel are completely equal in military might. Would there be such strife in between them? Would'nt their military ability, being the same, render diplomacy between the two? I think the balance of power would maintain peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barts Posted January 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Just so there is no more confusion or your part the pronoun "they" in my post refers to Hamas, a political party with a private militia.. that if they wish to attack, they have the priviledge of accepting the consquences....whether private militias have an inherint right to either attack or defend is moot. I wasn't confused how you were using the pronoun "they". As I say, however, the same applies to Israel, "that if they wish to attack, they have the priviledge of accepting the consquences." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barts Posted January 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 If Iran were involved it is hard to tell what could happen. Lets say that Palestine and israel are completely equal in military might. Would there be such strife in between them? Would'nt their military ability, being the same, render diplomacy between the two? I think the balance of power would maintain peace. I agree. If the Palestinians were as militarily well-endowed as Israel, peace would break out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Israel, of course, owes its military superiority to American aid. Up to a point. However, Israel is one of the planet's great weapon makers...and a rich country, to boot. So the vast bulk of their military has 'Made in Israel' stamped on the side. Main assault rife: The Grail Main MG: The Negrev Main SMG: The Uzi Main Tank: The Merkava Israel's airforce is made up of their own designs as well as aircraft from around the globe including Canada. They pay money for them...no freebies. As mentioned in other thread, much of the armor I've seen involved in Gaza are Merkavas and Tirans...Tirans are captured Arab T-54/55s and T-62s(which they did get for free...lol) from either the 6 Day War or the Yom Kippur War. Their turrets are generally removed and the chassis converted into a troop carrier. ---------------------------------- It's a Daisy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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