War, to be Humane, Must be Total

[M.Dancer]

Not sure why you want to debate something so simple.

To give you a fighting chance.

Never the less...everything is on the table, especially those things that aren't mentioned...like flying klezmar ninja accordian players...I haven't heard of any denials of that either....

...meanwhile back in realityland....

Israel's Foreign Ministry is denying a British newspaper report that claims Jerusalem has drafted plans for a low-level nuclear strike on Iran to wipe out its uranium enrichment facilities using nuclear-tipped "bunker busters."

snip

One Israeli military official said editors at The Sunday Times are delusional, and the official denied any such plan. Israel has had a position of ambiguity on its nuclear weapons since the 1960s, never officially claiming or denying to own such weapons. Last month, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said he misspoke when he suggested in an interview that Israel was a member of the nuclear club.

"This is absurd information coming from a newspaper that has already in the past distinguished itself with sensationalist headlines that in the end amounted to nothing," the anonymous official said to Agence France Press about the London Times report.

"To think that we will launch an atomic attack against Iran, and on top of that that we would reveal it in advance to a foreign newspaper is doubly ridiculous," the official said.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,242261,00.html

[Guest American Woman]

Everyone knows that Israel has nuclear weapons. Israel does not deny that they have it either.

Not sure why you want to debate something so simple.

Really? "Everyone" knows that? Post one link verifying that Israel says they have nukes. Since it's so "simple," you shouldn't have any problem coming up with one.

[DogOnPorch]

Really? "Everyone" knows that? Post one link verifying that Israel says they have nukes. Since it's so "simple," you shouldn't have any problem coming up with one.

naiomi has refused all my requests for information on Israeli nuclear weapons and their apparent claim to be ready to use them on Iran. Keep in mind, even North Korea and Pakistan found need to test their designs.

[Guest American Woman]

naiomi has refused all my requests for information on Israeli nuclear weapons and their apparent claim to be ready to use them on Iran. Keep in mind, even North Korea and Pakistan found need to test their designs.

"Not denying" is certainly not the same as "confirming" that they have them. Evidently Naomi realizes that Israel has never confirmed that they have nukes, which is why she can only keep parroting that they "don't deny" it. I'd love to hear her explanation as to why Israel isn't admitting it .....

So let's hear it, Naomi. Why isn't Israel admitting that they have nukes?

[jbg]

There is no real evidence Israel has working nuclear weapons.

I side with NaomiGlammer on this; I think they do.

[jbg]

Tell me, you think the Boston tea party was about civil rights?

And equally valid, was the Boston Tea Party a massacre?

[DogOnPorch]

I side with NaomiGlammer on this; I think they do.

Alas...many think that Israel has nuclear weapons. However it still remains speculation and Israel likes it that way. Either or, these apparent independently made devices remain untested contrary to what every other country with nuclear weapons has done. So if they exist there's a good chance that any particular device...or in the worst case scenarios, all devices could be duds. Not something one would want to engage in First Strikes with. More a 'launch 'em all...see what happens' doomsday type option.

The only semi-concrete stuff we have is what Vanunu claimed was going on plus Teller's secret meetings with the Israelis. Teller's meeting suggests that if Israel does have nuclear weapons they probably also have the H-Bomb...somethings the Iranians and such are incapable of making as of yet. But again...no tests. Do they work? We simply do not know. The Israelis don't either.

...and naiomiglover certainly doesn't know.

[bush_cheney2004]

...The only semi-concrete stuff we have is what Vanunu claimed was going on plus Teller's secret meetings with the Israelis. Teller's meeting suggests that if Israel does have nuclear weapons they probably also have the H-Bomb...somethings the Iranians and such are incapable of making as of yet. But again...no tests. Do they work? We simply do not know. The Israelis don't either.

We have a bit more...but as you say, nothing in the way of a demonstrated, reliable capability. Zero yield (HE) implosion tests in the Negev happened early on (1960's ?), and a US VELA satellite detected something matching a high order test in 1979 (Indian Ocean), perhaps as part of the joint effort with South Africa, since abandoned. We have covered this all before.

Israel need not advertise actual capability until faced with a regional rival, and doing so presents a host of problems for supporters and detractors alike.

[wulf42]

Israel is believed to have as many as 400+ Nukes read the following article about the Sampson Option, this is what keeps the Arab Countries at bay!

http://www.military.com/news/article/March-2009/us-army-confirms-israeli-nukes.html

[bush_cheney2004]

....this is what keeps the Arab Countries at bay!

Many Arab nations keep themselves at bay.

[Guest American Woman]

I side with NaomiGlammer on this; I think they do.

This isn't a question about whether or not we think Israel has nukes. It's about whether or not it's a given that Israel has (working) nukes. Two very different things.

In other words, one can't say, "Israel has threatened to use nukes" as a fact, based on one's opinion.

[DogOnPorch]

We have a bit more...but as you say, nothing in the way of a demonstrated, reliable capability. Zero yield (HE) implosion tests in the Negev happened early on (1960's ?), and a US VELA satellite detected something matching a high order test in 1979 (Indian Ocean), perhaps as part of the joint effort with South Africa, since abandoned. We have covered this all before.

Israel need not advertise actual capability until faced with a regional rival, and doing so presents a host of problems for supporters and detractors alike.

Yes indeed. The Negrev test could be a sign of Israel's development of a Fat Man type weapon...or not, of course. But those types of weapons are so much more complicated than the Little Boy type that one would almost insist on tests to justify their construction (at huge expense, naturally). The Indian Ocean event remains a mystery, ultimately. South Africa was after the Bomb at the time as mentioned...but they took their program apart in public. There was also an event in the 60s involving the possible theft of nuclear materials from the US Navy that many were looking at Israel for. But again...nuthin' really firm.

BC-2004 is well aware of this...but those interested can count the craters of the number of tests done in the US alone...many kabooms.

[naomiglover]

This isn't a question about whether or not we think Israel has nukes. It's about whether or not it's a given that Israel has (working) nukes. Two very different things.

In other words, one can't say, "Israel has threatened to use nukes" as a fact, based on one's opinion.

Stop wasting time. Everyone knows that Israel has nukes.

[DogOnPorch]

Stop wasting time. Everyone knows that Israel has nukes.

Once again...everybody doesn't know if Israel has nuclear weapons or not.

You are a classic example of Mark Steyn's quote:

"We live in an age where facts have become opinions and opinions have become facts."

Edited December 24, 2009 by DogOnPorch

[Guest American Woman]

quote American Woman: This isn't a question about whether or not we think Israel has nukes. It's about whether or not it's a given that Israel has (working) nukes. Two very different things.

Stop wasting time. Everyone knows that Israel has nukes.

Stop posting your opinion as fact.

What "everyone knows" is that Israel has never confirmed that they have nukes, much less "working" nukes, which is why you totally ignored the question I presented to you. In case you forgot it, I'll repeat it here.

***Why isn't Israel admitting that they have nukes?***

It's a simple question, and in light of your constant repetition that "everyone knows," it should be quite easy for you to answer.

[bloodyminded]

Once again...everybody doesn't know if Israel has nuclear weapons or not.

You are a classic example of Mark Steyn's quote:

"We live in an age where facts have become opinions and opinions have become facts."

Yes, and Mark Steyn should know, having plenty of direct personal experience with this sorry phenomenon:

Steyn, May 2003:

But the bottom line is this: by 2010, Arafat, the Assads, the Ayatollahs and the loopier factions of the House of Saud will all be gone.

One out of four. That's not very good "fact" OR opinion.

Steyn, November 2001:

Imperialism is the answer.

Steyn, Dec. 2003:

Another six weeks of insurgency [in Iraq] sounds about right, after which it will peter out .

Steyn, April 2003:

In a year's time, Iraq will be, at a bare minimum, the least badly-governed state in the Arab World and, at best, pleasant, civilized and thriving

Steyn, April, 2004:

"Okay, a freaky West Virginia tramp leading a naked Iraqi round on a dog leash with a pair of Victoria's Secret panties on his head and a banana up his butt, maybe that wasn't so inevitable.

Note--the error in the last piece is that it wasn't a banana. A banana up the butt merely sounds funnier than a light-tube shoved up a rectum, which was the actual incident.

At any rate, Steyn is here laughing at rape. Rape is funny...to the intrepid Mark Steyn.

"Conservative values" one day--laughing at the rape of detainees the next. What a degenerate.

Steyn, Oct. 2004:

Quebec's health system is a lot less healthy than, for example, Iraq's.

Say what????

Edited December 31, 2009 by bloodyminded

[ironstone]

Why are you even contesting this? The report that I was watching recently about the Israels bombing SCHOOLS and killing upwards of 30 people (children, mostly) didn't show any decapitated bodies or shredded limbs or gaping wounds. The western media's censorship really is to Israel's (and your) benefit...

I would certainly have expected some sort of admission/explanation as to your supposed Christian faith, but I suppose your silence and need to resort to ad hominem attacks is clear enough...

If the Israelis do bomb "SCHOOLS" as you say,it's because Hamas has no qualms about launching ROCKETS from these and similar places with civilians.I am curious as to how you think the Israelis should take out these ROCKET sites.

[DogOnPorch]

Yes, and Mark Steyn should know, having plenty of direct personal experience with this sorry phenomenon:

Steyn, May 2003:

One out of four. That's not very good "fact" OR opinion.

Steyn, November 2001:

Steyn, Dec. 2003:

Steyn, April 2003:

Steyn, April, 2004:

Note--the error in the last piece is that it wasn't a banana. A banana up the butt merely sounds funnier than a light-tube shoved up a rectum, which was the actual incident.

At any rate, Steyn is here laughing at rape. Rape is funny...to the intrepid Mark Steyn.

"Conservative values" one day--laughing at the rape of detainees the next. What a degenerate.

Steyn, Oct. 2004:

Say what????

So you hate Mark Steyn. What does that have to do with actually knowing if Israel has or hasn't functional nuclear weapons?

Maybe you could post some 'facts' on their yields and construction that we haven't already mentioned.

[Verbal]

I am late to this party but this total war thing... so the total destruction of states is humane? Can the OP (JBG) please comment? This is pretty odious, IMHO.

[maple_leafs182]

And equally valid, was the Boston Tea Party a massacre?

The tea party happened because the colonies where forced to loan money from the Bank of England, they were charged interest on it putting the colonies in immediate debt.

"The colonies would gladly have borne the little tax on tea and other matters had it not been that England took away from the colonies their money, which created unemployment and dissatisfaction. The inability of colonists to get power to issue their own money permanently out of the hands of George the III and the international bankers was the PRIME reason for the Revolutionary War."

-Benjamin Franklin

But world wide we are stupid and allow Central banks to control money, now we are enslaved to a system of debt and credit. We need a global revolution.

And as for the title of this, war is never humane.

[naomiglover]

Stop posting your opinion as fact.

What "everyone knows" is that Israel has never confirmed that they have nukes, much less "working" nukes, which is why you totally ignored the question I presented to you. In case you forgot it, I'll repeat it here.

***Why isn't Israel admitting that they have nukes?***

It's a simple question, and in light of your constant repetition that "everyone knows," it should be quite easy for you to answer.

Everyone knows that Israel has nukes.

Who cares if Israel has 'never confirmed or denied' it. Just because they never confirmed or denied it, we can't talk about it? You have an interesting method of debating topics.

The hundreds of other information out there aside, even the US congress confirms that Israel has nukes.

Even wulf. Read that, even wulf is not playing your stupid game. Way to sink to the bottom with your failed attempt at diverting legitimate criticism of Israel with your stupid argument that they 'neither confirm or deny', therefore you cannot say that they include their nuclear program when they say 'all' options are on the table.

Stop wasting time by reducing these political debates into artificial debates where honesty is jeopardized because you need to fulfill your unconditional love for a team you're cheering for.

[Guest American Woman]

Everyone knows that Israel has nukes.

Who cares if Israel has 'never confirmed or denied' it. Just because they never confirmed or denied it, we can't talk about it? You have an interesting method of debating topics.

Asking you why you think Israel has never confirmed it, as you repeat ad naseum that "everyone knows it," IS "talking about it." Your refusal to add your own thought to your claim is what's "interesting."

The hundreds of other information out there aside, even the US congress confirms that Israel has nukes.

Saying it's "widely believed" is hardly "confirming" it; much less confirming that they have "working nukes."

Even wulf. Read that, even wulf is not playing your stupid game. Way to sink to the bottom with your failed attempt at diverting legitimate criticism of Israel with your stupid argument that they 'neither confirm or deny', therefore you cannot say that they include their nuclear program when they say 'all' options are on the table.

Your inability to discuss anything without reverting to personal insults is more apparent every time you respond to one of my posts. I'm not "diverting" any discussion. I'm asking you for your opinion. That's what discussion boards are for: giving one's opinion.

Is it seriously too difficult for you to answer a simple question? The question is: Why isn't Israel admitting that they have nukes? Why, if they have them, do you think they aren't admitting to it?

Stop wasting time by reducing these political debates into artificial debates where honesty is jeopardized because you need to fulfill your unconditional love for a team you're cheering for.

"Honesty" is being jeopardized by my asking for your thoughts regarding your opinion, which you state as fact?

Either you have no idea what "honesty" involves, or you're as dishonest as the day is long.

You repeatedly claim that "everyone knows that Israel has nukes." One more time.

Why do you think Israel isn't admitting that they have nukes?

Edited January 2, 2010 by American Woman

[Argus]

It takes the goddamn CAKE when a JEW is calling for the destruction of an entire race -- did you learn nothing? Does history need to be repeated ala Iran? Fug!

I think you are mistakenly equating the desctruction of a violent and threatening group, with the destruction of a non-violent, non-threatening group. And I think that is rather odd.

[Argus]

Are you suggesting the only way to achieve peace in Gaza is to indiscriminately flatten the place?

Well, it is _A_ way.

[Argus]

The debate is not who started what, or who is morally unblemished.

The debate is which is more moral, complete annhialation, or measured responses.

No, I think the debate is whether it is more humane to piddle along with half measures for decades - ie Vietnam or for that matter, Palestine - or go blitzkrieg on the place, smash the living crap out of it, slaughter anyone who puts up a fight, and then have peace in a matter of weeks as opposed to decades.