War, to be Humane, Must be Total

[jbg]

War is hell. There is no doubt about that. Children who just yesterday seemed to be playing in the tire swing on the front yard are off to fight, often in some distant land or venue. Everyone of any degree of sanity wishes that this were never needed, and that our beloved flesh and blood could go peacefully from playful childhood to productive, fruitful adulthood to wise old age.

Unfortunately, the way of the world is that nations and religious groups frequently do not like each other. There is always some group that doesn't want to engage in diplomacy or good-faith negotiation. It is the people that enjoy the cherished freedom relished by Americans and Canadians that do not wish to fight. Sometimes other people or groups make unreasonable demands that must be resisted. For example, in the U.S. south, peole demanded the right to keep other people enslaved, and were willing to foresake Congressional and electoral debate to that end. In more modern times, various groups, at different times calling themselves fascists, communists, or Islamists, believed that they had the right to limit the freedom of others, in behalf of some deranged or impractical dream of world paradise, on their terms, with them as rulers.

The civilized world has always tried to limit the bloodshed of war initially. During the Civil War, Union forces took no steps to occupy Virginia or North Carolina prior to their long-delayed secession from the Union. During World War II, much time was spent in both the European and Atlantic theatres on peripheral engagements with enemy troops, some at great cost of Allied life. How many Americans died at Guadalcanal, Midway, Iwo Jima and various African sites far removed from the main Axis powers?

Both the Civil War and WW II ended when the victors became serious about fighting. General Sherman's "March to the Sea", which devastated large swaths of Georgia, convinced the remaining Confederates that their cause was hopelss. The Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki attacks, in my view, for the first time convinced the German and Japanese people, respectively, that their "leadership" was taking them one place; to the grave.

For war to end, the ultimate victors must prosecute it to the maximum extent possible. I am not advocating attacking supermarkets and skyscrapers deliberately. Those kinds of attacks accomplish little. If fanatics seek war, they should be given what they ask for. In spades. Attempts to daintily avoid civilian casualties and negotiate prematurely lead only to prolonged and greater grief.

[Ontario Loyalist]

For war to end, the ultimate victors must prosecute it to the maximum extent possible. I am not advocating attacking supermarkets and skyscrapers deliberately. Those kinds of attacks accomplish little. If fanatics seek war, they should be given what they ask for. In spades. Attempts to daintily avoid civilian casualties and negotiate prematurely lead only to prolonged and greater grief.

Of course they want war, they want Israel to invade and make them all martyrs and to piss off the rest of the Muslim war and in an effort to trigger an all-out showdown with Israel. And Israel is all too happy to oblidge. Sure 6,000 rockets is not good, but they caused on FOUR deaths. In return, Israel has gone and killed several thousand people, and these dead people are being filmed and shown of Arab television (unlike in the West, where such things are censored) and this is only fueling further hatred. Violence begets violence, and this "incursion" will only lead to more rocket attacks and suicide bombings in the future, or perhaps something WORSE...

Edited January 6, 2009 by Ontario Loyalist

[jbg]

You are a complete and utter FOOL. No shit they want war, they want Israel to invade and make them all martyrs and to piss off the rest of the Muslim war and in an effort to trigger an all-out showdown with Israel.

****************

I really do wish you would start thinking...

My post said nothing about Gaza or Hamas. But if you're seriously thinking about Gaza I suggest you look at Hamas' "negotiations" with Israel. Hint, they don't have an Israeli embassy (not that I'm sure Canada does).

[Ontario Loyalist]

My post said nothing about Gaza or Hamas. But if you're seriously thinking about Gaza I suggest you look at Hamas' "negotiations" with Israel. Hint, they don't have an Israeli embassy (not that I'm sure Canada does).

Hmmmm... I believe you're misquoting me...

[jbg]

Hmmmm... I believe you're misquoting me...

I didn't quote you.

[Ontario Loyalist]

I didn't quote you.

Um, in post #3 there is a "quote box" which has this header:

"QUOTE(Ontario Loyalist @ Jan 5 2009, 10:57 PM)"

[emphasis mine]

Please stop being obnoxious...

[Peter F]

What the hell are you trying to say? There's not enough dead Iraqi's and/or Afghans yet? More need be killed, be they enemies or not? Far more killing is necessary?

as for your historical references about wwII between 1941 and 1944 being 'periferal' and 'not serious' : all those silly little waste-of-time battles in North Africa or Guadalcanal or Iwo Jima or effing Stalingrad for that matter, were all necessary in order to achieve the conditions by wich the allies could bomb the snot out of Germany and Japan - wich they were only able to do because of Guadalcanal and Iwo Jima and Tunisia and Midway and ad nauseum.

Do you seriously think the American military is wasting its time effing around with attempting to provide security for democratically elected governments in both Iraq and Afghanistan? They should instead just start killing as many suspected fanatics as possible without regard to civilian casualties?

I honestly admit I am astounded at your ignorance and inhumanity.

Edited January 6, 2009 by Charles Anthony
deleted re-copied Opening Post

[tango]

"Our message to the Zionist community is this - your leaders are spilling your blood to win an election," he said, referring to snap legislative polls called for February 10. Various analysts have said that the Israeli bombardment is geared to drum up support for politicians in the coming polls.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?ed...rticle_id=98768

Well isn't that just ... sicko.

How many dead Palestinian children does it take to elect an Israeli politician?

How low can friggen politicians go?

ISRAEL'S SELF-DEFEATING GAZA OFFENSIVE

By Gideon Rachman

Financial Times (London)

January 5, 2009 -- 19:04 GMT [11:04 PST]

(CHECK OUT THE CARTOON!)

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/34c5a426-db49-11...0077b07658.html

By sending ground troops into the Gaza Strip, Israel has crossed a line that brings it perilously close to strategic failure.

Just as with the Lebanon war of 2006, an air bombardment has failed to

stop rocket fire into Israel -- and has been followed by a ground

invasion. The Israeli government says it has learned the lessons of its

stalemated war with Hezbollah, the Lebanese militia. Gaza is more

hospitable terrain than southern Lebanon; Hamas is militarily weaker

than Hezbollah; Israel is better prepared and is using new tactics.

Maybe so. But what are Israel’s strategic needs? The first is the

protection of Israeli citizens; the second is the re-establishment of

Israel’s deterrent power; the third is the preservation of

international support; and the fourth some prospect of durable peace.

Each one of these objectives is now in peril.

By

sending the army into Gaza, Israel has probably ensured it will lose

many more lives than the four killed by Hamas rockets in the year

before the conflict started. It is, of course, the job of the military

to take casualties to protect civilians. But Israel’s is a citizen

army. The point has not been lost on the Israeli public. A poll taken

early in the conflict found more than 70 per cent support for bombing

Gaza -- but just 20 per cent support for a ground invasion.

full text here ... http://www.ufppc.org/content/view/8256/35/

Nobody wants this but Bush and Israeli politicians ... oh yes ... and the war-and-oil 'industry', currently laughing up their sleeves at their puppet Israelis!

Edited January 6, 2009 by tango

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Of course they want war, they want Israel to invade and make them all martyrs and to piss off the rest of the Muslim war and in an effort to trigger an all-out showdown with Israel. And Israel is all too happy to oblidge. Sure 6,000 rockets is not good, but they caused on FOUR deaths. In return, Israel has gone and killed several thousand people, and these dead people are being filmed and shown of Arab television (unlike in the West, where such things are censored) and this is only fueling further hatred. Violence begets violence, and this "incursion" will only lead to more rocket attacks and suicide bombings in the future, or perhaps something WORSE...

So how should Israel respond? Should they live with rocket attacks?

[Sir Bandelot]

For war to end, the ultimate victors must prosecute it to the maximum extent possible.

War is peace.

[M.Dancer]

Of course they want war, they want Israel to invade and make them all martyrs and to piss off the rest of the Muslim war and in an effort to trigger an all-out showdown with Israel. And Israel is all too happy to oblidge. Sure 6,000 rockets is not good, but they caused on FOUR deaths. In return, Israel has gone and killed several thousand people, and these dead people are being filmed and shown of Arab television (unlike in the West, where such things are censored) and this is only fueling further hatred. Violence begets violence, and this "incursion" will only lead to more rocket attacks and suicide bombings in the future, or perhaps something WORSE...

Exactly how many israeli deaths are enough to warrant a response then?

(unlike in the West, where such things are censored)

Pure nonsense.

[JB Globe]

So how should Israel respond? Should they live with rocket attacks?

They should respond with a response that ACTUALLY WILL WORK.

See my previous posts on this topic or the above article.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The article above provides no solutions at all. What are you referring to? Exactly what is it that you think should be done?

[sharkman]

Of course they want war, they want Israel to invade and make them all martyrs and to piss off the rest of the Muslim war and in an effort to trigger an all-out showdown with Israel. And Israel is all too happy to oblidge. Sure 6,000 rockets is not good, but they caused on FOUR deaths. In return, Israel has gone and killed several thousand people, and these dead people are being filmed and shown of Arab television..

These comments are wrong on two counts. First, Israel has not killed several thousand(in response to the rocket attacks). Sexing up the numbers to buttress your argument is pretty transparent. Second, 6,000 rockets have put Israelis in a state of fear for their lives every time the warning sirens go off. Try living under those conditions for several years. Israel has been patient, but Hamas finally got their wish of an Israeli military response.

And the lives lost can fairly be blamed on Hamas, who stockpile their weapons in mosques and hospitals, shoot their rockets from residential neighborhoods and use their own brainwashed people as human shields. What a waste.

Edited January 6, 2009 by sharkman

[jdobbin]

The article above provides no solutions at all. What are you referring to? Exactly what is it that you think should be done?

Having not read the post but guessing from the title, I suspect the solution suggested is some sort of eradication of the entire population.

[Ontario Loyalist]

So how should Israel respond? Should they live with rocket attacks?

I see no point in entering a discussion with someone who can look back no further than the most recent acts of violence. My guess is that there's some Muslim somewhere on a message board: "So how should Palestinians respond? Should they live with Israeli aggression?" This is why this problem persists, because there are so many people like you who just can't step back and look at the situation objectively.

[Ontario Loyalist]

Exactly how many israeli deaths are enough to warrant a response then?

I don't know, how many Palestinians deaths "warrant a response"... As per my response to Fortin, really don't see the point. You profess to be a Christian, or at least go to church, so you should understand why the concepts of "though shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek" are core to Christ's teachings. Nevertheless you choose to take sides and approve of violence and death is beyond me. I suppose you've spent much of your Bible study time misinterpreting the Old Testament (like so many others)... As Jesus said: "Fool" [Matthew 23:17], [Matthew 23:29], [Luke 11:40], [Luke 24:25]

Pure nonsense.

Western media rarely shows dead and maimed people; this is a well-known fact, so it's curious why you would refer to it as "pure nonsense"... well, actually, I guess it shouldn't come as much of a surprise...

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't know, how many Palestinians deaths "warrant a response"... As per my response to Fortin, really don't see the point. You profess to be a Christian, or at least go to church, so you should understand why the concepts of "though shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek" are core to Christ's teachings. Nevertheless you choose to take sides and approve of violence and death is beyond me.

Are you serious? Your own nation has "responded" against other nations and is presently "responding" against Afghanistan without being attacked at all...nada....not even a bullet. The religious angle is cute, but it is not a cover for the obvious.

Western media rarely shows dead and maimed people; this is a well-known fact, so it's curious why you would refer to it as "pure nonsense"... well, actually, I guess it shouldn't come as much of a surprise...

We can't show tits either.

[M.Dancer]

You profess to be a Christian, or at least go to church, so you should understand why the concepts of "though shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek" are core to Christ's teachings.

If your grasp on the topic is a tenous as your wildly mistaken beliefs about me....

Governments have duties, the foremost is to protect their citizens. It matter not that the Hamas rockets are ineffective or gruesomely accurate, it is the responsibility of the goivernment to act. Seeing that they are the work of Hamas, then Hamas must pay the price. Hamas's aim witnthe rockets are to involke terror and to cause civilian casualties, thise who ridiculously call for a proportioned response should consider if Israel wwere to do the same there would be no Gaza left.

It is true that many more Palestinian than Israeli civilians have been killed in the current conflict. But the government of Israel, like that of any other nation-state, is answerable above all for the safety of its own people; it cannot acquiesce in violent deaths by rocket attack. By such an invasion, the IDF can greatly diminish the number of such killings, but cannot prevent them all. Fortunately, the government understands that better than in the 2006 war with Hezbollah.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...ialComment/home

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I don't know, how many Palestinians deaths "warrant a response"... As per my response to Fortin, really don't see the point. You profess to be a Christian, or at least go to church, so you should understand why the concepts of "though shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek" are core to Christ's teachings. Nevertheless you choose to take sides and approve of violence and death is beyond me. I suppose you've spent much of your Bible study time misinterpreting the Old Testament (like so many others)... As Jesus said: "Fool" [Matthew 23:17], [Matthew 23:29], [Luke 11:40], [Luke 24:25]

Western media rarely shows dead and maimed people; this is a well-known fact, so it's curious why you would refer to it as "pure nonsense"... well, actually, I guess it shouldn't come as much of a surprise...

Perhaps you should move there and preach to the Jews, you know convert them to your superior morals and ethics. After all, that is what Jesus would do.

You are a fool to believe that any group of people targeted by another group of people will stand idle when explosions destroy their homes and kill their people. I tire of this endless argument of proportional responses and civilian concerns. We are talking about the right of a nation to respond to terrorists, nothing less.

Ontario Loyalist, please answer this question. What would you do if the person on the other side of the fence from you started shooting at you? Call the cops? Well lets say there are no cops, now what then? I would suggest that you would defend yourself. Its either that or run and hide and give away your home and possessions to a criminal.

This isn't complicated thinking, it requires no great effort to come to some form of conclusion. Be realistic, be adult, and answer the question, what would you do?

[M.Dancer]

Western media rarely shows dead and maimed people; this is a well-known fact, so it's curious why you would refer to it as "pure nonsense"... well, actually, I guess it shouldn't come as much of a surprise...

This too is nonsense. I haven't yet acquired my "well known fact" Tin foil hat so I still call it nonsense because it is patently false. I would recommend buying a TV and watching CBC news instead of Happy Days reruns .

Edited January 6, 2009 by M.Dancer

[JB Globe]

The article above provides no solutions at all. What are you referring to? Exactly what is it that you think should be done?

Negotiate.

[White Doors]

Negotiate.

They pulled out of Gaza and what do they get for their troubles?

Daily, random, rocket attacks.

And you want to give moral equivency to Hamas and Israel?

Your ardent PC approach makes you laughable, not respectable.

Israel is far from perfect, but shares no moral equivelency with Hamas.

[Ontario Loyalist]

This too is nonsense. I haven't yet acquired my "well known fact" Tin foil hat so I still call it nonsense because it is patently false. I would recommend buying a TV and watching CBC news instead of Happy Days reruns .

Why are you even contesting this? The report that I was watching recently about the Israels bombing SCHOOLS and killing upwards of 30 people (children, mostly) didn't show any decapitated bodies or shredded limbs or gaping wounds. The western media's censorship really is to Israel's (and your) benefit...

I would certainly have expected some sort of admission/explanation as to your supposed Christian faith, but I suppose your silence and need to resort to ad hominem attacks is clear enough...

[M.Dancer]

Why are you even contesting this? The report that I was watching recently about the Israels bombing SCHOOLS and killing upwards of 30 people (children, mostly) didn't show any decapitated bodies or shredded limbs or gaping wounds. The western media's censorship really is to Israel's (and your) benefit...

Because you haven't seen it does not = censorship. Using that kind of logic I can say Titanic, Kill Bill and Hell Boy have been censored.

I would certainly have expected some sort of admission/explanation as to your supposed Christian faith, but I suppose your silence and need to resort to ad hominem attacks is clear enough...

Your delusions do not require an explanation from me, rather it is up to you to seek confirmation of your delusions.