War, to be Humane, Must be Total

[naomiglover]

No, I think the debate is whether it is more humane to piddle along with half measures for decades - ie Vietnam or for that matter, Palestine - or go blitzkrieg on the place, smash the living crap out of it, slaughter anyone who puts up a fight, and then have peace in a matter of weeks as opposed to decades.

You are advocating genocide.

You are a bad human.

Edited January 3, 2010 by naomiglover

[naomiglover]

Asking you why you think Israel has never confirmed it, as you repeat ad naseum that "everyone knows it," IS "talking about it." Your refusal to add your own thought to your claim is what's "interesting."

Saying it's "widely believed" is hardly "confirming" it; much less confirming that they have "working nukes."

Your inability to discuss anything without reverting to personal insults is more apparent every time you respond to one of my posts. I'm not "diverting" any discussion. I'm asking you for your opinion. That's what discussion boards are for: giving one's opinion.

Is it seriously too difficult for you to answer a simple question? The question is: Why isn't Israel admitting that they have nukes? Why, if they have them, do you think they aren't admitting to it?

"Honesty" is being jeopardized by my asking for your thoughts regarding your opinion, which you state as fact?

Either you have no idea what "honesty" involves, or you're as dishonest as the day is long.

You repeatedly claim that "everyone knows that Israel has nukes." One more time.

Why do you think Israel isn't admitting that they have nukes?

Who cares why they are not confirming it or why they are not denying it.

You want your comments to be treated with respect? Why not start being honest about the topic instead of playing these games.

The issue is not vague. Israel has nukes and the whole world knows it. When they say all options are on the table, as wulf and numerous other extremely pro-zionist people have already mentioned, they mean that the nukes are an option.

Edited January 3, 2010 by naomiglover

[Guest American Woman]

Who cares why they are not confirming it or why they are not denying it.

Evidently I do, since I'm asking about it. Was that too difficult for you to figure out?

I would like to know why you think they aren't confirming it in light of your constant repetition, your opinion, that "everyone knows." If Israel is going to threaten with nukes, as you say they are, wouldn't you think they'd want to make it clear that they have nukes? So if they have nukes, working nukes, why do you think they aren't admitting it?

You want your comments to be treated with respect? Why not start being honest about the topic instead of playing these games.

Asking a question is "playing games?"

I want to know, in light of your continually posting your opinion as fact, saying over and over ad naseum that "everyone knows," why you think Israel is not admitting it.

You also falsely claimed "even the US congress confirms that Israel has nukes."

Yet you try to divert the attention to whether or not MY comments are treated with respect? You accuse ME of not being honest?

I have to wonder if there's an honest bone in your body.

The issue is not vague. Israel has nukes and the whole world knows it. When they say all options are on the table, as wulf and numerous other extremely pro-zionist people have already mentioned, they mean that the nukes are an option.

The issue is very vague. In fact, it's so vague that you, even as you repeat a false claim over and over, can't even answer a simple question.

As for Wulf, I couldn't care less what he thinks since he's no more privy to that information than you are, and I'm especially not since you falsely claimed the US congress confirms that Israel has nukes, so who knows if he even said what you claim he did? But I'm not going to be diverted by another poster, so I won't be going there.

The FACT is, no one knows for sure if Israel has nukes or not, and further more, even if they suspect they do, they have no idea if they are working nukes or not.

You've repeatedly demonstrated to me that you are not capable of answering the question, but I'll put it to you again, as you falsely repeat again that everyone knows that Israel has nukes:

Why do you think Israel isn't admitting that they have nukes?

[Argus]

You are advocating genocide.

You are a bad human.

Well, first, I didn't actually advocate anything. You are a bad reader.

Second, even had I advocated smashing the place, that is not the same as advocating the annihilation of an entire people - not even close. You are a bad historian.

Third, a case can be made that a people is damaged more by year after year after year of war, and indeed, suffer more casualties, though spread out, than they would in a quick, sharp, brutal campaign. You are a bad thinker.

Not that you ever show much signs of thought, of course.

[jbg]

I am late to this party but this total war thing... so the total destruction of states is humane? Can the OP (JBG) please comment? This is pretty odious, IMHO.

Sure.

Did you read the OP? What I gave were numerous examples that demonstrated that wars,once begun, don't end without something horrible being done to losing side.

A further example not discussed was WW I. It ended with a "negotiated" settlement. The fact that there was so much unfinished business led directly to WW II. In the Middle East, the Arabs started and/or seriously provoked the 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973 wars. When the Israelis were able to get off the matt and trounce the Arabs they were restrained. Is there peace there now?

Why not do a little reading then come back to me?

[naomiglover]

Why do you think Israel isn't admitting that they have nukes?

Why do you think Israel is not denying it?

To admit that Israel has nuclear weapons is to 100% confirm that Israel, U.S. and the rest of the West are hypocrites in demanding that one country cannot have nuclear power while another does.

However, that is besides the point.

The point here is that we have a country with known nuclear weapons who is saying 'all options are on the table'. I would expect the countries in the region see Israel as a big threat. This for many reasons:

A) Israel has nuclear weapons

Israel has a history of initiating attacks or as it is called by the PR department; pre-emptive strikes.

C) Israel doesn't have respect for international law. They've shown they're capable of doing some really horrible things to people.

D) Israel has the political, military and economical backing of the U.S.

[bush_cheney2004]

...This for many reasons:

A) Israel has nuclear weapons

....maybe.

B.) Israel has a history of initiating attacks or as it is called by the PR department; pre-emptive strikes.

Using such aberrated optics, so has Canada.

C) Israel doesn't have respect for international law. They've shown they're capable of doing some really horrible things to people.

Ditto Canada.

D) Israel has the political, military and economical backing of the U.S.

As does Canada....so what's your point wrt different expectations for Israel, a nation that has actually been attacked.

Edited January 4, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest American Woman]

Why do you think Israel is not denying it?

If my neighbors were a threat to my family and me, and they thought I might have a gun, and I thought that belief might help keep their actions in check, I'd be pretty stupid to announce 'But I don't even have a gun!' don't you think?

To admit that Israel has nuclear weapons is to 100% confirm that Israel, U.S. and the rest of the West are hypocrites in demanding that one country cannot have nuclear power while another does.

So to your way of thinking, Israel, as evil as you claim they are, draws the line at appearing to be a hypocrite. You think Israel is capable of doing all sorts of nasty things, you claim Israel "doesn't have any respect for international law," and you want us to believe all of this, but you also want us to believe that Israel is concerned about appearing to be a hypocrite. This evil nation that will threaten to use nukes, that will use nukes, draws the line at appearing to be a hypocrite. That's what you want us to believe. Interesting.

Now I'll ask you, since you are the one saying Israel has nukes -- why aren't they denying it? If they are, as you you say, concerned about appearing to be a hypocrite, why do you think they don't simply deny it? If, as you say, "everyone knows they have them," what good does simply not confirming they have them do? Why aren't they flat out denying it? Wouldn't that be better for their reputation, if that is their concern?

The point here is that we have a country with known nuclear weapons who is saying 'all options are on the table'.

No, we don't have a country with "known nuclear weapons," much less working nuclear weapons. We just have your claim that they do.

I would expect the countries in the region see Israel as a big threat. This for many reasons:

A) Israel has nuclear weapons

Says you. Now prove not only that they have them, but that they have been tested and proven to be working nukes.

But if those countries in the region do see Israel as a big threat, if they believe as you do that Israel without a doubt has working nukes, perhaps they should reign in their acts of terrorism against Israel. Perhaps they should cease with the suicide bombings; stop targeting and killing civilians.

They're either not as frightened of Israel as you claim they are, or else they are down-right stupid.

Israel has a history of initiating attacks or as it is called by the PR department; pre-emptive strikes.

Give me a list of countries that doesn't have that history. Here's a hint: there are other "countries in the region" that wouldn't be on the list.

C) Israel doesn't have respect for international law. They've shown they're capable of doing some really horrible things to people.

Ditto just about every other country in the region. You are aware of what's going on in those countries, are you not?

D) Israel has the political, military and economical backing of the U.S.

Palestine receives more international financial aid per capita than Palestine does, so so much for having U.S. "economic backing."

Now explain to me how Israel "has the U.S.'s military backing." In other words, show me where the U.S. is backing Israel militarily in that statement you keep repeating over and over and over again. Another hint: simply saying "everyone knows it" won't cut it.

Not sure what all you mean by "political backing," so perhaps you could expand on that. Thank you.

Edited January 4, 2010 by American Woman

[DogOnPorch]

Israel has a history of initiating attacks or as it is called by the PR department; pre-emptive strikes.

Israel has a history of finishing wars started by its neighbours.

[naomiglover]

If my neighbors were a threat to my family and me, and they thought I might have a gun, and I thought that belief might help keep their actions in check, I'd be pretty stupid to announce 'But I don't even have a gun!' don't you think?

So in your eyes, Iran is okay to do the same thing. Or are you saying it's only Israel who can do this?

So to your way of thinking, Israel, as evil as you claim they are, draws the line at appearing to be a hypocrite. You think Israel is capable of doing all sorts of nasty things, you claim Israel "doesn't have any respect for international law,"

I am not only claiming this to be happening, the evidence is right there. Israel is in violation of international law by a number of actions. You should look it up.

and you want us to believe all of this, but you also want us to believe that Israel is concerned about appearing to be a hypocrite. This evil nation that will threaten to use nukes, that will use nukes, draws the line at appearing to be a hypocrite. That's what you want us to believe. Interesting.

The PR campaign can only take you so far and allow the supporting governments to support you so much. I mean, I guess they could create concentration camps and gas the people, but that would probably not go well. Instead, they will continue their systematic violations where they will push the envelop as far as possible. A perfect example of this is the systematic land grab of the Arab land. Despite the direct violation of international, Israel continues to seize more land and build more illegal settlements.

Their PR campaign, which includes your support and participation can only excuse so much of the atrocities. There is only so much 'nothing to see here' Israel can do before the governments of the Western countries will be forced to stop supporting Israel. Something we saw with Apartheid South Africa.

Now I'll ask you, since you are the one saying Israel has nukes

Back up a second American Woman.

Just because we don't see photos of the Israeli governments standing beside nuclear warheads with their thumbs up, you want everyone to question whether they do or not? There are documented evidence that Israel has nukes. It goes all the way from France and Britain's assistance to making their nukes to a man, who worked at the main nuclear plant, who revealed the details of Israel's nuclear weapons, and in turn was imprisoned for 18 years.

Then there are, of course, people like wulf and jbg, who will not sink to your level of discourse and will not play this: "but they've never confirmed that they have nukes so we can't say that have nukes" game.

Honesty has never been Israel's (or your) forté.

-- why aren't they denying it? If they are, as you you say, concerned about appearing to be a hypocrite, why do you think they don't simply deny it? If, as you say, "everyone knows they have them," what good does simply not confirming they have them do? Why aren't they flat out denying it? Wouldn't that be better for their reputation, if that is their concern?

Just a lot more babbling.

Israel has nukes and your attempt to question whether or not they have it in order to stop and change the course of the debate about the hypocrisy and the double standards is nothing new.

No, we don't have a country with "known nuclear weapons," much less working nuclear weapons. We just have your claim that they do.

Says you. Now prove not only that they have them, but that they have been tested and proven to be working nukes.

Right.

We only have "my claim" that Israel has nuclear weapons.

You are embarrassing yourself.

But if those countries in the region do see Israel as a big threat, if they believe as you do

Your failed attempt to turn this into 'my theory' that Israel has nuclear weapons has failed.

that Israel without a doubt has working nukes, perhaps they should reign in their acts of terrorism against Israel. Perhaps they should cease with the suicide bombings; stop targeting and killing civilians.

They're either not as frightened of Israel as you claim they are, or else they are down-right stupid.

You are saying that the Palestinians should stop their struggle against Israel's violation of their human rights and other nations should stop supporting the Palestinians because of Israel's nuclear weapons.

Now explain to me how Israel "has the U.S.'s military backing."

Iraq war.

I don't have the patience to debate a make belief world with you.

Israel has nukes. The world knows it. Everyone knows it. Stop being such an obvious PR tool and stop trying to divert people from trying to be honest about the situation.

Here is an Israeli official going off script. Oops. Panic. Call up the PR department!

Olmert: Iran wants nuclear weapons like Israel

Ahead of his first visit to Germany as prime minister, Olmert forced to deal with embarrassing slip of the tongue in interview with German TV, saying Iran aspires to possess nuclear weapons like US, France, Israel and Russia.

Ynet News

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hcXJTD51ro

Edited January 4, 2010 by naomiglover

[Guest American Woman]

So in your eyes, Iran is okay to do the same thing. Or are you saying it's only Israel who can do this?

You asked why I think Israel would not deny having nukes if they don't have them. I gave a very legitimate reason. I gave no stamp of approval, no disapproval. In other words, I never said "Israel can do this." Try sticking to what I say, as I have no desire to respond to views that you attribute to me.

Now what's your reasoning? Why do you think Israel is not flat out denying that they have nukes if they are so concerned about not appearing to be a hypocrite?

I am not only claiming this to be happening, the evidence is right there. Israel is in violation of international law by a number of actions. You should look it up.

Since you obviously missed the point of my response, or perhaps you do have a complete inability to respond to what's actually said, I was pointing out the irony of your claim that Israel doesn't have respect for international law along with your claim that Israel doesn't want to appear to be a hypocrite. Perhaps if you don't selectively quote, you'll manage to reply to what's actually been said.

I'll spell it out for you. I'm not interested in refuting/discussing your claims re: Israel and the nasty things they do nor any claims that they have no respect for international law; I'm not interested in wasting my time in a fruitless attempt to have an honest, intelligent discussion with you.

My comment was strictly in response to your ludicrous reasoning that Israel is a nasty, nasty nation ... that apparently draws the line at appearing hypocritical. In other words, your explanation as to why Israel isn't admitting that they have nukes, much less working nukes, doesn't jive even the teeniest bit with what you want us to believe about Israel. You're all over the board with your comments about Israel, according to your agenda, whether your comments make sense or not. And they don't.

Just because we don't see photos of the Israeli governments standing beside nuclear warheads with their thumbs up, you want everyone to question whether they do or not?

I couldn't care less whether or not "everyone questions" it. People can, and do, think whatever they want. But when they start making claims of FACT based on nothing but their opinion, which is exactly what you are repeatedly doing, I will call them on it.

Again, "everyone" doesn't "know" that Israel has nukes, much less working nukes. You always, always, leave out the reference to working nukes. Why is that, exactly?

There are documented evidence that Israel has nukes.

So you've said. Now prove that "everyone knows that Israel has nukes," since that is what you are repeatedly posting as fact; since that is the issue.

Then there are, of course, people like wulf and jbg, who will not sink to your level of discourse and will not play this: "but they've never confirmed that they have nukes so we can't say that have nukes" game.

Did my "I don't give a damn..." regarding other's opinions not penetrate your brain? I'll repeat it yet again. Why would their opinion regarding whether or not Israel has nukes mean any more to me than your opinion does? They are not "everyone," so they have nothing to do with your repeated claim that "everyone knows that Israel has nukes."

Again, I'm not interested in being diverted by others, so I will no longer respond when you bring up other posters, a bad habit you can't seem to break, when responding to me.

Bottom line. "Everyone" doesn't "know that Israel has nukes." And that is a fact. In spite of some peoples' beliefs, everyone doesn't know. Everyone doesn't claim that Israel has nukes, much less working nukes. So in your constant repetition that "everyone knows Israel has nukes," you are repeating a false claim. And that is a fact. Your repeated claim that Israel has threatened to use nukes is a false claim, since it is based on your false claim that "everyone knows Israel has nukes."

That you accuse me of "sinking to a level of discourse," as you can't prove your claims, says it all -- And it says it about you.

As I said, I have to wonder if you have an honest bone in your body; but the more you respond to my posts, the more convinced I am that you don't.

Edited January 5, 2010 by American Woman

[naomiglover]

Wow - You failed to respond to more than 50% of what I wrote. You're a waste of time.

You asked why I think Israel would not deny having nukes if they don't have them. I gave a very legitimate reason. I gave no stamp of approval, no disapproval. In other words, I never said "Israel can do this." Try sticking to what I say, as I have no desire to respond to views that you attribute to me.

So you are saying Israel is only pretending to have nuclear weapons because it's under threat?

Now what's your reasoning? Why do you think Israel is not flat out denying that they have nukes if they are so concerned about not appearing to be a hypocrite?

If Israel removes its ambiguity it would be forced to go under NPT and thus, remove its nuclear program. Israel has also had an agreement with the US since 1969 to keep the program ambiguous in return, they would not be asked to join the NPT. Something that oozes with double standard and hypocrisy.

You are really stuck on Israel not wanting to neither deny or confirm their nuclear program. It's a non-issue.

Going back to the original topic that triggered your PR campaign; There is enough evidence to show that Israel has nukes:

- France and UK's help to create the nuclear program

- CIA issued a report concluding that Israel had successfully started production of nuclear weapons

- Former Israeli nuclear technician who provided descriptions and photographic evidence of Israel's nuclear warheads. This man was thrown in prison and continues to be under surveillance for revealing Israel's secret nuclear program.

- In the 1990's, US Intelligence community estimated that Israel has between 75 to 130 nuclear weapons

- Israel's acknowledgment it had illegally imported critrons, an important element in creating nuclear weapons, from the United States in the early 1980's that it stole

- Israel's denial of IAEA's inspectors to visit the Dimona site, even though it is a member of the organization

Sources:

http://www.thebulletin.org/article.php?art_ofn=mj06cohen

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/israel/

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB189/index.htm

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/biblio.pdf

http://www.thebulletin.org/article_nn.php?art_ofn=so02norris

http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/2000/mj00/mj00cohen.html

I'll spell it out for you. I'm not interested in refuting/discussing your claims re: Israel and the nasty things they do nor any claims that they have no respect for international law; I'm not interested in wasting my time in a fruitless attempt to have an honest, intelligent discussion with you.

You want to be honest, then admit that Israel has nuclear weapons.

Edited January 6, 2010 by naomiglover

[wulf42]

Israel has Nukes and if there was ever a Country that needed them it's Israel! The Muslims don t ever seriously challenge Israel these days why do you think nobody ran to help Gaza?? they don t dare to, they know Israel will push the button and not bat an eye if they were forced.

[Oleg Bach]

Then why does every Country on Earth have a Military? I guess all of Humanity is screwed huh? there will always be a Hitler waiting to make a power grab and wreak destruction on other's..(Al Qaeda) War then becomes a must in defense, only way to stop a schoolyard bully is to punch him square in the nose!

Because we are like a collective on insects..and the black ants want to invade the red ants while the cockroaches wait to take the spoils. People like Hitler are representatives of certain groups of fanatics playing God. There is always a group of conspirators who take pleasure in domination...at one time I lived in a gated rural community...a certain person who was familiarily disposed to crimminality....a grandson of a woodbe mafia type - He turned out to have a weakness...he heard voices..Well he started to destroy familys and run them out of out little paradise and he bought up as many properties as possible...

Finally he started to effect my little realm...so I had to tag him like a rouge wolf. It took a while but what gave me the edge to force this creep out was the fact that I found his play book..his manual...He had a little office over looking the lake where he would sit studying a piece of shit called THE ART OF WAR. I gave it a quick read and did to him what he had done to us...I believe they finally hauled him away to the nut house...after the authorities found him standing in water up to his knees for hours. He was screaming at the sunfish and insisting they were conspiring Jews....by the way how do you spell Scillian?

[maple_leafs182]

Foo Fighters, Long Road to Ruin (1st verse)

Here now don't make a sound

Say have you heard the news today?

One flag was taken down

To raise another in its place

A heavy cross you bear

A stubborn heart remains unchanged

No home, no life, no love

No stranger singing in your name

[Guest American Woman]

Wow - You failed to respond to more than 50% of what I wrote. You're a waste of time.

I "failed" to respond because I'm not interested in more than 50% of what you write; more than 50% of what you write is a waste of time for me to read, much less respond to. And I've made that quite clear.

So you are saying Israel is only pretending to have nuclear weapons because it's under threat?

No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is exactly what I quite clearly said, and I'm guessing a fifth grader would understand it. You are smarter than a fifth grader, right?

If Israel removes its ambiguity it would be forced to go under NPT and thus, remove its nuclear program.

So you'd think they would deny having nukes. I've asked you why you think they aren't denying it, but it seems you have no answer for that.

You are really stuck on Israel not wanting to neither deny or confirm their nuclear program. It's a non-issue.

What I'm stuck on if your constant repetition of something that's not true. It's not a non-issue at all when you make false claims regarding Israel. Israel has never confirmed that they have nukes; you claim they do as you claim "everyone" knows it, a flat out false statement. It's fine that you believe what you believe, you have that right. What's not fine is your claim, based on your belief, that Israel has threatened to use nukes. You don't have the right to make things up about other nations based solely on your and/or others' belief, and state it as fact. Furthermore, even you can't provide one iota of evidence that Israel has working nukes, which makes your claim even more dishonest.

Going back to the original topic that triggered your PR campaign; There is enough evidence to show that Israel has nukes:

Where's the evidence showing that Israel has working nukes? But more to the point, where's the evidence that "everyone knows" Israel has nukes, much less working nukes? Because that is your claim, and once again, it is flat out false.

Your constant claim reminds me of all the "everyone knows Iraq/Saddam has WMD," and they provided the same type of evidence that you are providing, and it wasn't true, was it?

You want to be honest, then admit that Israel has nuclear weapons.

I'm the only one in our discussion who is honest. You're as dishonest as the day is long.

[jbg]

You want to be honest, then admit that Israel has nuclear weapons.

I think it does. Is this a bad thing?

Remember, Israel doesn't want its enemies dead. Quite the contrary with Hamas. Returning to the opening post topic, I think Hamas may need the "total war" treatment. They are clearly not responsive to reason.

[jbg]

It seems as if some left-leaning posters agree with my opening post (link to recent post in new thread on Castro).

[dre]

I think it does. Is this a bad thing?

Remember, Israel doesn't want its enemies dead. Quite the contrary with Hamas. Returning to the opening post topic, I think Hamas may need the "total war" treatment. They are clearly not responsive to reason.

Im not sure if its a good thing or a bad thing. One problem is that the perception that one country in a region has nuclear weapons is likely to lead to other players in that region proliferating. So you could have a regional arms race of sorts.

But even if that happens I dont know if its really that bad of a thing. A little bit of mutual assured destruction might just be the best thing that ever happened for the chances of peace in the dump known as the middle east.

[dre]

If fanatics seek war, they should be given what they ask for. In spades. Attempts to daintily avoid civilian casualties and negotiate prematurely lead only to prolonged and greater grief.

Thats not always true. You can actually strenthen a guerilla movement with that approach. And if youre overly wreckless you can also lose the support of your own people as well. Sometimes you need a sledge hammer but sometimes you need a scalpel too.

[bud]

heh.

american woman does not want to admit that israel has nukes. what an obvious mouthpiece.

she wonders why she's called a hasbara-bot or israeli woman.

[dre]

Theres very little doubt among defense analysts that Israel has nuclear weapons.

Judging by low long Dimona has been online and how much it produces, its likely Israel has made about 2 bombs per year since the late sixties.

[bud]

Theres very little doubt among defense analysts that Israel has nuclear weapons.

Judging by low long Dimona has been online and how much it produces, its likely Israel has made about 2 bombs per year since the late sixties.

but it has never been confirmed by israel so we can't talk like they actually have it !!!!!111111

Edited September 20, 2010 by bud

[jbg]

Theres very little doubt among defense analysts that Israel has nuclear weapons.

Judging by low long Dimona has been online and how much it produces, its likely Israel has made about 2 bombs per year since the late sixties.

but it has never been confirmed by israel so we can't talk like they actually have it !!!!!111111

I'm with dre on this one. I suspect that Israel has long been a nuclear power. It's not in their interest to explain themselves on this score since they are clearly not a first, unprovoked user.

[Bonam]

Problem is Israel's nukes have never been tested. Untested weapons cannot be assumed to be reliable. Maybe they made some mistake in the design and got it wrong and the nukes won't work if they ever try to use them. Unless the designs are just replicas of existing extensively tested US warheads.