If Canada Supports Israel, Why Don't We Do Something?

[tamtam10]

This article brings about a very interesting way to look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

http://informedvote.ca/2009/01/the-middle-...wo-cents-worth/

Canada really needs to take action by rallying other countries to support Israel. The world can not turn its back when a terrorist organization attacks a sovereign state.

[Progressive Tory]

This article brings about a very interesting way to look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

http://informedvote.ca/2009/01/the-middle-...wo-cents-worth/

Canada really needs to take action by rallying other countries to support Israel. The world can not turn its back when a terrorist organization attacks a sovereign state.

There is no simple solution. The writer asks, "what would the US do"? We already know what they would do.

And: "Undoubtedly, the US would seek out every single member of this terrorist organization and destroy it. Nobody would be outraged because this would be the expected course of action." This has proven to be impossible. They are already engaged in a "War on Terror" but it is a daunting task. This is a war with no 'front' or definable enemy. Terrorist cells can and do exist everywhere.

It's difficult for Canada or any country to take sides without first learning all the facts; but ultimately diplomacy, not bombs must prevail. Aggression is getting us nowhere. JFK said "Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind." (Speech to UN General Assembly, Sept. 25, 1961).

[Kitchener]

What do you mean by "If Canada supports Israel"?

Supports it more than we support Palestinians?

Supports it more than we support Hamas?

Supports it no matter what Israel does, ever?

It's quite clear that Canada supports Israel to a very substantial extent; certainly our policies are completely preferential toward Israel compared with Hamas. That's consistent with not supporting everything Israel does, and with holding that Israel is not above criticism. Would you like Canadian troops to be in there, too, killing civilians (however innocent and pure their double-effect intentions), targeting Palestinian police officers, and bizarrely hoping to impose a moderate government by violence?

Edited January 2, 2009 by Kitchener

[Moonbox]

I'm a very strong supporter of Israel. I don't think, however, that there is any role for Canada to actively play there other than to provide public support.

Havings said that, I don't think people understand what it's like to be a Palestinian today. They're cut off from the outside world by military checkpoints. People, food and supplies are restricted access to the area and it's like living in a prison.

It's such a huge mess it's not even funny. On one hand, you have over a million people denied access to anything more than what's absolutely necessary to stay alive. On the other hand, you have people (often from other Arab nations) hiding amongst the civilian Palestinians launching rockets into Israel. What is Israel supposed to do? Israeli brutality is well documented but they HAVE to be that way. Israel occupied all sorts of territory around itself to act as a buffer for attacks from outside.

Any time they withdraw from contested lands it does NOTHING to appease its enemies. Militants simply move in and start attacking Israel proper.

Israel isn't going anywhere. The sooner Arab countries accept that the sooner they can stop firing missiles at each other and compromise on peace.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

There will be no peace in the middle east. Unless of course there are no more Palestinians.

[Moonbox]

It goes a lot further than that. There will be no peace in the Middle East in our time. Give it 50-100 years when we don't need oil anymore. Then Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia etc can sit on their sand and get laughed at. Maybe by then they'll also accept that Israel is there to stay, because it's not going anywhere.

[Mr.Canada]

Palestine is an apartheid state now. With Arabs treated as second class citizens. I find it funny that people here are against racism and discrimination in Canada but it's fine for Jews to discriminate against Arabs and that is perfectly acceptable. Hypocrisy of the left wing, typical.

If the US stopped sending Billions to Israel every year in cash and military equipment Israel would be gone in less than a year.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Palestine is an apartheid state now. With Arabs treated as second class citizens. I find it funny that people here are against racism and discrimination in Canada but it's fine for Jews to discriminate against Arabs and that is perfectly acceptable. Hypocrisy of the left wing, typical.

If the US stopped sending Billions to Israel every year in cash and military equipment Israel would be gone in less than a year.

Where is Palestine?

Isn't it the Arabs who deny the existence of Israel? Haven't they said the country has no right to exist? Are the Jews not persecuted enough?

[Moonbox]

Palestine is an apartheid state now. With Arabs treated as second class citizens. I find it funny that people here are against racism and discrimination in Canada but it's fine for Jews to discriminate against Arabs and that is perfectly acceptable. Hypocrisy of the left wing, typical.

Left wing? What? How is that left wing?

I find the whole anti-Israel sentiment in the West to be very ironic. If you contemplated Jewish history for a second, maybe you'd understand a bit better.

We've got an entire race/religion of people with literally thousands of years of history. In that whole time they've probably never had a safe place to call home. They were finally granted a place to live in their ANCESTRAL HOMELAND and now their neighbours one and all demand they be wiped off the face of the planet....AGAIN.

Here people are now, speaking critically of THEIR discrimination against Arabs!??!?? How can WE in Canada or North America possibly judge their right to defend themselves??? It's not like they're inventing the danger. It's there. It's real...and Jewish Israelis are dying on a regular basis from it. They don't have the luxury of being politically correct. Their families and lives are legitimately at stake.

If the US stopped sending Billions to Israel every year in cash and military equipment Israel would be gone in less than a year.

Unlikely to happen so why bring it up??

[bush_cheney2004]

....If the US stopped sending Billions to Israel every year in cash and military equipment Israel would be gone in less than a year.

Nope....but some people like to think that. You'll never hear them say the same thing about billions to Egypt or Jordan. And all the rest. Or even arms sales to/from Canada. Hmmmm...let's see...which nation is actually responding to an attack on its own soil, with no NATO cover for its actions, literally and figuratively?

[GostHacked]

There will be no peace in the middle east. Unless of course there are no more Palestinians.

Or Jews.

Jerry J

Isn't it the Arabs who deny the existence of Israel? Haven't they said the country has no right to exist? Are the Jews not persecuted enough?

Well, why would you put yourself into that situation to begin with? And I am one who does not recognize Isreal's right to exist.

Moonbox

We've got an entire race/religion of people with literally thousands of years of history. In that whole time they've probably never had a safe place to call home. They were finally granted a place to live in their ANCESTRAL HOMELAND and now their neighbours one and all demand they be wiped off the face of the planet....AGAIN.

The Middle East is all of humanity's ancestral homeland. Why could they not have been given a peice of land in Africa? Europe? North America?? There must also be a crapload of islands in the ocean that are big enough to hold them all.

What is so important about this peice of land that the Jews/Isreali's are fighting so hard for? If it is based on ancient history, then leave it to ancient history. If you were driven from the land once, why set up home in that area again, knowing full well that you are going to be constantly under the gun because the neighbours never wanted you there in the first place. Why would you put yourself into that situation?

[GostHacked]

Unlikely to happen so why bring it up??

Because the money/weapons puts Isreal as the military power in the Middle East. If aid/weapons was given to all sides equally, then I don't think you would hear many complaints. But the fact that Israel gets so much more aid from the west, shows how little the West is committed to the peace process.

[bush_cheney2004]

Because the money/weapons puts Isreal as the military power in the Middle East. If aid/weapons was given to all sides equally, then I don't think you would hear many complaints. But the fact that Israel gets so much more aid from the west, shows how little the West is committed to the peace process.

Oh contraire....the "west" is very committed to the peace process...for the West. There has been no shortage of UN actions, invasions, and wars to demonstrate the commitment to "peace".

[Moonbox]

Well, why would you put yourself into that situation to begin with? And I am one who does not recognize Isreal's right to exist.

and you have zero (yes zero) real justification for that position...

The Middle East is all of humanity's ancestral homeland.

Some people's history tie into it quite a bit more than others'.

Why could they not have been given a peice of land in Africa? Europe? North America?? There must also be a crapload of islands in the ocean that are big enough to hold them all.

What island in the ocean is big enough and hospitable enough to provide for the Jewish nation? If there are any empty, unclaimed and bountiful islands out there let me know. We can start our own country there.

And why Israel? It's easier to justify settling them there than anywhere else in the world. Something like 4000 years of Jewish history lead to that decision. Whatever 'claim' the Palestinians or Arabs had for that land was by far and away preceded by a Jewish claim. Who decides whose claim is stronger? Do we say that the 60 years of Israeli occupation makes the claim legitimate, strenghtened by the 100 years or whatever of British claim? Or the 600-700 years of Arab occupation before that? Do we go back to the Romans who occupied it for something like 400 years? The Jews before that for 4000? What do you do now? Seriously?

What is so important about this peice of land that the Jews/Isreali's are fighting so hard for? If it is based on ancient history, then leave it to ancient history. If you were driven from the land once, why set up home in that area again, knowing full well that you are going to be constantly under the gun because the neighbours never wanted you there in the first place. Why would you put yourself into that situation?

The same could be said about the Palestinians living in Israel and the surrounding area. Israel also has the capability to wipe the floor with ANY of their neighbours, including Egypt. It's not just because of $3B or whatever in US aid. Their military training, research and spending is EXTREME.

[GostHacked]

and you have zero (yes zero) real justification for that position...

Or is it a scenario no one wants to even consider?

Some people's history tie into it quite a bit more than others'.

The area is where human civilization started. It belongs to all people/religions/creeds. To have one group claim exclusivity on the area for the sake of the argument for the creation of Israel is not going to resolve this.

And why Israel? It's easier to justify settling them there than anywhere else in the world. Something like 4000 years of Jewish history lead to that decision. Whatever 'claim' the Palestinians or Arabs had for that land was by far and away preceded by a Jewish claim.

Why Palestine?

Who decides whose claim is stronger? Do we say that the 60 years of Israeli occupation makes the claim legitimate, strenghtened by the 100 years or whatever of British claim? Or the 600-700 years of Arab occupation before that? Do we go back to the Romans who occupied it for something like 400 years? The Jews before that for 4000? What do you do now? Seriously?

Now we start to understand the real crux of this issue. Who has real claim to the land. And to answer your question. The UN decided the Jewish claim was stronger, or we would not have an Israel.

The same could be said about the Palestinians living in Israel and the surrounding area. Israel also has the capability to wipe the floor with ANY of their neighbours, including Egypt. It's not just because of $3B or whatever in US aid. Their military training, research and spending is EXTREME.

I don't doubt how well they are trained. And 3 billion to help train and equip does not hurt either.

If Hilter never gassed the Jews, would we be in this situation?

If the Jews were not prosecuted by Hitler, would they all still be screaming for a homeland?

Was the gassing of the jews the tipping point for them to want to claim a homeland?

Was it a jewish plan all along to have Isreal recreated, even if the Holocaust did not happen?

[LesterDC]

This article brings about a very interesting way to look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

http://informedvote.ca/2009/01/the-middle-...wo-cents-worth/

Canada really needs to take action by rallying other countries to support Israel. The world can not turn its back when a terrorist organization attacks a sovereign state.

but it's okay to claim rights to a land that was already occupied because you say that it is your "promised land"?

The Jewish people started fighting first when they wanted to be their own country..

[Moonbox]

Or is it a scenario no one wants to even consider?

It's a silly and implausible scenario. Their right to exist is now firmly planted in the fact that they ARE there now and nobody in the area has the ability to remove them. The 'real' scenario is that the Palestinians and Arab nations in the area benefit more now from the UN than Israel does. Israel now could clear out all of its neighbours. It's a stupid scenario to consider seeing as though Israel could, should it feel the need, deny its neighbours the right to exist while they have ZERO capability to do the reverse.

The area is where human civilization started. It belongs to all people/religions/creeds. To have one group claim exclusivity on the area for the sake of the argument for the creation of Israel is not going to resolve this.

Check your history. Civilization started about 1000km or more to the east...around where Iraq is now. With that said, humanity had migrated all over Europe, Asia and Africa (likely North America by then too) by the time Babylon started. Besides, there we people living everywhere in the world already before this happened....so really you're totally wrong there.

Now we start to understand the real crux of this issue. Who has real claim to the land. And to answer your question. The UN decided the Jewish claim was stronger, or we would not have an Israel. .

More like the British decided this. That wasn't my question either. My question was now that they're there, how do you contest that their claim is any weaker than anyone else's? You deny the right for Israel to exist. From what you've said, it's because there are angry people all around them that don't want them there. You'll have to do better than that.

The question now is what's the more INTELLIGENT solution? You have:

A ) Try to remove a wealthy, established population armed to the teeth from a land to which they have both historic and religious ancestry

or

B ) Accept that they do have the right to exist, stop firing rockets at them and try to work peacefully with them.

If Hilter never gassed the Jews, would we be in this situation?

If the Jews were not prosecuted by Hitler, would they all still be screaming for a homeland?

Was the gassing of the jews the tipping point for them to want to claim a homeland?

Was it a jewish plan all along to have Isreal recreated, even if the Holocaust did not happen?

There's no possible way to respond intelligently to this.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Moonbox

[GostHacked]

More like the British decided this. That wasn't my question either.bMy question was now that they're there, how do you contest that their claim is any weaker than anyone else's?

So we can blame the British for the creation of Israel then? How did they get there? It may not have been a question you would have asked, but now that it is out there, we can respond to it.

Many Jewish moved to Isreal after the creation of it.

You deny the right for Israel to exist. From what you've said, it's because there are angry people all around them that don't want them there. You'll have to do better than that.

And now you are denying another people's right to the land as well. And by the same token, because they are there now is not an excuse for the claim either There were people there before, and now have been displaced because of modern Israel.

There's no possible way to respond intelligently to this.

I presented the Holocaust as a catalyst for the creation of Israel. I think it is important to consider. If the haulocaust never happened, would the push for the creation of Isreal be in high demand? Would there be such a need as a homeland?

[BC_chick]

Israeli brutality is well documented but they HAVE to be that way. Israel occupied all sorts of territory around itself to act as a buffer for attacks from outside.

You really don't see the irony of protecting yourself on someone else's land?

Google some videos of houses getting bulldozed for Israeli settlements, look at the destitute horror on their faces as everything they own is destroyed... you might understand why Israel needs to 'protect' itself on occupied territory.

Edited January 2, 2009 by BC_chick

[BC_chick]

Palestine is an apartheid state now. With Arabs treated as second class citizens. I find it funny that people here are against racism and discrimination in Canada but it's fine for Jews to discriminate against Arabs and that is perfectly acceptable. Hypocrisy of the left wing, typical.

Right, because Canada's "Right" has been sooooo vocal about their criticism of Israel's domestic policies.

Edited January 2, 2009 by BC_chick

[Moonlight Graham]

This isn't a time for Canada to support Israel, its a time for them to support a ceasefie from both sides. Israel's retaliation on Hamas is vastly unproportional to the attacks Hamas has fired recently. 350+ deaths > 4 deaths.

There needs to be another ceasefire agreement. Then a 2-state solution. Easier said than done i suppose.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Moonlight Graham

[LesterDC]

This isn't a time for Canada to support Israel, its a time for them to support a ceasefie from both sides. Israel's retaliation on Hamas is vastly unproportional to the attacks Hamas has fired recently. 350+ deaths > 4 deaths.

There needs to be another ceasefire agreement. Then a 2-state solution. Easier said than done i suppose.

Thank you, I couldn't have said it better. That is 100% my stance on this.. Why should Canada support either side? Helping one side destroy another side is not keeping the peace. We have to retain our neutrality as an arbitrary peace keeper - and it is true, Israel's retaliation on Hamas is way out of control.

[eyeball]

I had a bunch of people out on the boat one day including a couple of Israeli soldiers who were amazed at the abundance of wildlife I'd shown them on our tour, especially the large herd of Califonia and Stellar sea lions grouped together in a nearby colony. One asked me how it was the two species were able to get along so well and I replied it just seems to be in their nature despite how aggresive both can be at times.

I asked what sorts of wild animals are still found in Israel and one fellow indicated there were none, but his friend corrected him by saying there were still lots of Gazan's. Judging by the way they laughed they both thought this was a pretty good joke but I'm afraid I didn't really get it myself. I thought it was a fairly disturbing thing to say actually and judging by the awkward uncomfortable silence that seemed to characterize the rest of the trip so did a few other guests. If Canadian's support seems just a little less than half-hearted its really not that hard to see why - it leaves a bad after-taste in a lot of people's minds.

Edited January 2, 2009 by eyeball

[LesterDC]

I had a bunch of people out on the boat one day including a couple of Israeli soldiers who were amazed at the abundance of wildlife I'd shown them on our tour, especially the large herd of Califonia and Stellar sea lions grouped together in a nearby colony. One asked me how it was the two species were able to get along so well and I replied it just seems to be in their nature despite how aggresive both can be at times.

I asked what sorts of wild animals are still found in Israel and one fellow indicated there were none, but his friend corrected him by saying there were still lots of Gazan's. Judging by the way they laughed they both thought this was a pretty good joke but I'm afraid I didn't really get it myself. I thought it was a fairly disturbing thing to say actually and judging by the awkward uncomfortable silence that seemed to characterize the rest of the trip so did a few other guests. If Canadian's support seems just a little less than half-hearted its really not that hard to see why - it leaves a bad after-taste in a lot of people's minds.

That reminds me.. I once saw a video on youtube (

) of a crow taking a cat as its own.. If two species who are inherently at odds with each other are able to do this.. How come the Israelis and Palestinians cannot?

[eyeball]

That reminds me.. I once saw a video on youtube (

) of a crow taking a cat as its own.. If two species who are inherently at odds with each other are able to do this.. How come the Israelis and Palestinians cannot?

In a word, religion.