Israel Strikes the Gaza Strip

[eyeball]

There is no other way to stop the terrorism, than to eliminate the terrorists.

There will always be a supply of terrorists so long as there is a demand for them.

Always.

[wulf42]

There will always be a supply of terrorists so long as there is a demand for them.

Always.

The way to defeat terrorism is to exact a cost so high against terrorist's they they will be unwilling to commit terrorist acts, In 2006 after Israel's war with Hezbollah their leader Hassan Nasrallah stated he would never have kidnapped an Israeli soldier if he had known Israel's response.A strong military response is what is needed against terrorists as Israel is showing the world now!

http://www.voanews.com/bangla/archive/2006...-08-27-voa7.cfm

Edited January 1, 2009 by wulf42

[JB Globe]

Unfortunately for those people and their families on both sides who will pay the ultimate price of this tit-for-tat, these attacks have absolutely NOTHING to do with long-term security.

They have EVERYTHING to do with politics.

On Israel's side - when in this conflict has military force ever successfully damaged a militant group's long-term ability to stage attacks? The answer is never - the strategy that failed in Lebanon in 2006 will fail here as well, no surprises. The only victory will be for Israeli politicians, who were feeling the heat from the public about the rocket attacks but lacked the political courage to ACTUAL DEAL WITH THE PROBLEM, and instead wanted to look like they were doing SOMETHING and still in-touch with the Israel public, who wanted blood. So that's where we get the ineffectual bombing campaign, and possibly an equally redundant ground-invasion.

On Hamas' side - If terrorism = a free Palestinian state, such a state would be in existence already. It's clear to Hamas' leadership by now that terrorism will not get them what they claim they want so badly. But their militancy is one of the things that separates them from Fatah and gives them a certain amount of public support (mainly in Gaza). To give up militancy means moving closer to Fatah, and partnering with them in peace negotiations, which means giving up power, which is why they're not going that route. Instead, they'll satisfy the desire from their supporters for Israeli blood with rocket attacks, which do nothing to advance the cause of a Palestinian state, but do make it appear to some that Hamas is doing something to "fight the zionist entity"

Spending the lives of people in order to increase your political capital is an old move, but that doesn't make it any less disgusting.

Of course it should be said - that Hamas deliberately targets civilians both because it's ethically bankrupt and because it doesn't have the capacity to do anything else. Also, Israel deserves scorn as well because of how out-of-whack it's response in terms of it's severity vs the severity of the rocket attacks.

The rocket attacks will accomplish nothing but keeping Israelis angry at Palestinians and willing to support things like the bombings, which will do nothing but hurt the short-term ability of Hamas to stage said attacks and do nothing about it's long-term strength. Also, they make Gazans even MORE angry and extreme than they already are, thus increasing the likelyhood of future attacks.

The cycle continues, while apologists for both sides try to justify it. Nothing new here - move along people.

[wulf42]

Unfortunately for those people and their families on both sides who will pay the ultimate price of this tit-for-tat, these attacks have absolutely NOTHING to do with long-term security.

They have EVERYTHING to do with politics.

On Israel's side - when in this conflict has military force ever successfully damaged a militant group's long-term ability to stage attacks? The answer is never - the strategy that failed in Lebanon in 2006 will fail here as well, no surprises. The only victory will be for Israeli politicians, who were feeling the heat from the public about the rocket attacks but lacked the political courage to ACTUAL DEAL WITH THE PROBLEM, and instead wanted to look like they were doing SOMETHING and still in-touch with the Israel public, who wanted blood. So that's where we get the ineffectual bombing campaign, and possibly an equally redundant ground-invasion.

On Hamas' side - If terrorism = a free Palestinian state, such a state would be in existence already. It's clear to Hamas' leadership by now that terrorism will not get them what they claim they want so badly. But their militancy is one of the things that separates them from Fatah and gives them a certain amount of public support (mainly in Gaza). To give up militancy means moving closer to Fatah, and partnering with them in peace negotiations, which means giving up power, which is why they're not going that route. Instead, they'll satisfy the desire from their supporters for Israeli blood with rocket attacks, which do nothing to advance the cause of a Palestinian state, but do make it appear to some that Hamas is doing something to "fight the zionist entity"

Spending the lives of people in order to increase your political capital is an old move, but that doesn't make it any less disgusting.

Of course it should be said - that Hamas deliberately targets civilians both because it's ethically bankrupt and because it doesn't have the capacity to do anything else. Also, Israel deserves scorn as well because of how out-of-whack it's response in terms of it's severity vs the severity of the rocket attacks.

The rocket attacks will accomplish nothing but keeping Israelis angry at Palestinians and willing to support things like the bombings, which will do nothing but hurt the short-term ability of Hamas to stage said attacks and do nothing about it's long-term strength. Also, they make Gazans even MORE angry and extreme than they already are, thus increasing the likelyhood of future attacks.

The cycle continues, while apologists for both sides try to justify it. Nothing new here - move along people.

There is a lot of truth in your words, the only way to stop the fighting is to separate the two permanently.Maybe move the people of Gaza somewhere else into another Arab country.

[Argus]

There will always be a supply of terrorists so long as there is a demand for them.

Always.

Let's face facts here. The Palestinians didn't have the most pleasant homeland in the world before the intidifada, but there are and were many places in the world infinitely worse to live in. The Intifada has made life much worse for them. The suicide attacks on Israel have caused unemployment in Palestine to skyrocket as their movement is now greatly hindered, and many Israelis simply won't take the chance or go through the paperwork to try and hire one. Basic movement through Palestine is much more difficult, as well. The rocket attacks on Israel have caused further difficulties, including border closures, and retaliatory strikes. In short, the violent resistance to Israel has made things far worse for all Palestinians.

Yet even so, it is still a better place to live than other countries we could all think about, and there is no terrorism in those countries, no bomb attacks on markets, no random rockets or sniping.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Eliminate terrorists, there is a war on them now. Perhaps a bounty would help?

Hiding as they do, collateral damage is a fact of life. Perhaps they should accept the reality of the events, and simply leave Gaza and immigrate to Egypt?

[wulf42]

Eliminate terrorists, there is a war on them now. Perhaps a bounty would help?

Hiding as they do, collateral damage is a fact of life. Perhaps they should accept the reality of the events, and simply leave Gaza and immigrate to Egypt?

The funny thing is when the subject of moving the people of Gaza to a friendly Arab country such as Egypt those countries are the first to say "no way their not coming here" yet they say they support them in their fight against Israel......lol

[GostHacked]

There is a lot of truth in your words, the only way to stop the fighting is to separate the two permanently.Maybe move the people of Gaza somewhere else into another Arab country.

Or move the jews out to another part of the world?

[tamtam10]

Or move the jews out to another part of the world?

Not going to happen, ever.

[GostHacked]

Not going to happen, ever.

Then we are just going to see more of the same. Both are claiming rights to the land. Arm them all equally and then I will shake hands with the winner.

War does not determine who is right, just who is left.

War, war never changes.

[bush_cheney2004]

Then we are just going to see more of the same. Both are claiming rights to the land. Arm them all equally and then I will shake hands with the winner.

Who's going to do that? Equally? Israel has spent many billions and lives to make sure there is never any "equally". The Palestinians need to get a sugar daddy and a change in policy, because the present approach has consistently failed.

War does not determine who is right, just who is left.

War, war never changes.

Yep...which is why it remains so popular.

[wulf42]

War does not determine who is right, just who is left.

War, war never changes.

Really??......what about WW1 and 2? i think that determined alot actually, as far as the current situation your right! the way Hamas is going the only ones that are going to be left are the Israeli's and that is not a bad thing!

Edited January 2, 2009 by wulf42

[BC_chick]

Let's face facts here. The Palestinians didn't have the most pleasant homeland in the world before the intidifada, but there are and were many places in the world infinitely worse to live in. The Intifada has made life much worse for them. The suicide attacks on Israel have caused unemployment in Palestine to skyrocket as their movement is now greatly hindered, and many Israelis simply won't take the chance or go through the paperwork to try and hire one. Basic movement through Palestine is much more difficult, as well. The rocket attacks on Israel have caused further difficulties, including border closures, and retaliatory strikes. In short, the violent resistance to Israel has made things far worse for all Palestinians.

In other words, Palestinians need to take a good hard look at themselves to see why they are the victims of violence. Israel doesn't want to hurt Palestinians, they have no choice, a people can only take injustice for so long before they attack. And when they do, there are no rules in love or war so the other side has no right to complain about the methods used against them, even if those method may be deemed to be barbaric. In this particular case, they have nobody to blame but themselves.

Your bias notwithstanding, you can flip that same argument around for the Pali side too.... word for word.

Edited January 2, 2009 by BC_chick

[DogOnPorch]

Then why don't you? See if it holds water.

Arm them all equally and then I will shake hands with the winner.

War isn't fair. Would you cry for a do-over of the Battle of Britain because the Brits had radar and the Krauts didn't?

-------------------------------------------------------

It's a Daisy.

[wulf42]

It appears it would be a good time to get out of Gaza, Israel is getting ready to launch a ground attack...Hamas is going to get steamed rolled!

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/03/...gaza/index.html

[eyeball]

Let's face facts here. The Palestinians didn't have the most pleasant homeland in the world before the intidifada

I bet it was the most pleasant homeland in the world to Palestinians, before the occupation that is.

Lets face facts here. The occupation came before the intifada.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The reality is that the two nations will never see eye to eye. The fact is that Hamas is a terrorist group and they deserve little more than death. Let them live by the sword and let them die by the sword.

[kuzadd]

I bet it was the most pleasant homeland in the world to Palestinians, before the occupation that is.

Lets face facts here. The occupation came before the intifada.

The occupation, the stealing of the land, the genocide of the palestinians, it began long before the intifida....

Judaism:

* "What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.

[kuzadd]

Unfortunately for those people and their families on both sides who will pay the ultimate price of this tit-for-tat, these attacks have absolutely NOTHING to do with long-term security.

They have EVERYTHING to do with politics.

On Israel's side - when in this conflict has military force ever successfully damaged a militant group's long-term ability to stage attacks? The answer is never - the strategy that failed in Lebanon in 2006 will fail here as well, no surprises. The only victory will be for Israeli politicians, who were feeling the heat from the public about the rocket attacks but lacked the political courage to ACTUAL DEAL WITH THE PROBLEM, and instead wanted to look like they were doing SOMETHING and still in-touch with the Israel public, who wanted blood. So that's where we get the ineffectual bombing campaign, and possibly an equally redundant ground-invasion.

On Hamas' side - If terrorism = a free Palestinian state, such a state would be in existence already. It's clear to Hamas' leadership by now that terrorism will not get them what they claim they want so badly. But their militancy is one of the things that separates them from Fatah and gives them a certain amount of public support (mainly in Gaza). To give up militancy means moving closer to Fatah, and partnering with them in peace negotiations, which means giving up power, which is why they're not going that route. Instead, they'll satisfy the desire from their supporters for Israeli blood with rocket attacks, which do nothing to advance the cause of a Palestinian state, but do make it appear to some that Hamas is doing something to "fight the zionist entity"

re: Hamas they are the democratically elected government of the Palestinians(in Gaza)

They won in the most legitimate of elections, monitored carefully.

Elections so touted by the US and Israel, that they had to bite there tongues when the election results came in... for no matter the behind the scenes machinations for the puppet,(fatah) he didn't win.

Ever since that time Israel has been trying to rid itself of Palestines government.

Also, the fact that Hamas was an Israeli creation, in the vein of divide and conquer, to take power from the PLO.( to keep the Palestians divided)

So to call them "terrorists" is far to simplistic.

[DogOnPorch]

re: Hamas they are the democratically elected government of the Palestinians(in Gaza)

They won in the most legitimate of elections, monitored carefully.

Elections so touted by the US and Israel, that they had to bite there tongues when the election results came in... for no matter the behind the scenes machinations for the puppet,(fatah) he didn't win.

Ever since that time Israel has been trying to rid itself of Palestines government.

Also, the fact that Hamas was an Israeli creation, in the vein of divide and conquer, to take power from the PLO.( to keep the Palestians divided)

So to call them "terrorists" is far to simplistic.

HAMAS actually boycotted the Arab Palestinian presidential elections. It did win a majority in Gaza municiple elections at which point HAMAS revolted against Fatah and started murdering and maiming their members. They then became the defacto government in Gaza as Fatah was kicked to the curb. As mentioned, democracy HAMAS style.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_p..._election,_2005

HAMAS was created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and company after the first Infitada. Israel initially supported HAMAS as it was an apparent charity orginization. The tune changed soon enough when HAMAS started sending suicide bombers in response to Mossad's apparent recruiting of local Gazans for intelligence work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas

That's what Wikipedia says, anyways. I'm sure they are, no doubt, a front for international Zionism.

-------------------------------------------------------

It's a Daisy.

[Kitchener]

HAMAS actually boycotted the Arab Palestinian presidential elections. It did win a majority in Gaza municiple elections at which point HAMAS revolted against Fatah and started murdering and maiming their members... That's what Wikipedia says, anyways. I'm sure they are, no doubt, a front for international Zionism.

Gosh, really? Does it say it in your head when you listen really hard? Because, I know this is probably cheating or somesuch, but I actually read the entry -- the actual words, I mean -- and it doesn't say a thing remotely like the bold-faced claim. The only mention of killing is: "Fatah leader in the West Bank Marwan Barghouti, who was in prison in Israel after being convicted for a number of intifada killings", and the only reference to violence associated with the election is the observation that Israeli forces opened fire on a schoolhouse polling station.

So maybe reading your own sources before posting your LOLs would be a good idea, eh? Making you look at least marginally less like a crank?

[DogOnPorch]

Gosh, really? Does it say it in your head when you listen really hard? Because, I know this is probably cheating or somesuch, but I actually read the entry -- the actual words, I mean -- and it doesn't say a thing remotely like the bold-faced claim. The only mention of killing is: "Fatah leader in the West Bank Marwan Barghouti, who was in prison in Israel after being convicted for a number of intifada killings", and the only reference to violence associated with the election is the observation that Israeli forces opened fire on a schoolhouse polling station.

So maybe reading your own sources before posting your LOLs would be a good idea, eh? Making you look at least marginally less like a crank?

http://www.time.com/time/photoessays/2007/fatah_hamas/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_factional_violence

-----------------------------

It's a Daisy.

[Kitchener]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_factional_violence

First round of fighting

On December 15, 2006, fighting broke out in the West Bank after Palestinian security forces fired on a Hamas rally in Ramallah.

But don't let facts get in the way of your story about how Hamas started with attacks on Fatah. Somehow it doesn't count that Hamas won properly conducted elections -- even though Fatah, and not Hamas, were permitted to campaign beyond Israeli checkpoints -- because, uh, why again?

[JB Globe]

There is a lot of truth in your words, the only way to stop the fighting is to separate the two permanently.Maybe move the people of Gaza somewhere else into another Arab country.

Moving Gazans isn't remotely possible - no one wants to take them. All the Arab states who talk a big game about their Palestinian brothers in reality don't do much for them, and wouldn't dream of taking in that many refugees.

Plus, they kinda already moved once in the last century, I don't think they're going to want to move again.

And remember, the whole idea of a two-state solution IS to separate Israel and Palestine permanently. And yes, I think that offers the best prospects of peace.

[JB Globe]

re: Hamas they are the democratically elected government of the Palestinians(in Gaza)

They won in the most legitimate of elections, monitored carefully.

Elections so touted by the US and Israel, that they had to bite there tongues when the election results came in... for no matter the behind the scenes machinations for the puppet,(fatah) he didn't win.

I'm not arguing that point at all. My point is that Hamas' strategy has not and never will advance the cause of an independent Palestinian state. Suicide bombings and rocket attacks are just the totally wrong kind of tactic to use because they give Israelis justification for maintaining the status quo all these years and peppering in the occasional bombing and invasion as they're doing right now.

Hamas, if it really wants an independent Palestine, needs to put down the guns, organize massive civil disobedience. It needs to force Israelis, who never forget to remind everyone how ethically superior they are to Palestinians, into a position where they have to choose between giving Palestinians what they want, or committing an atrocity. ie - next time a bulldozer shows up to tear up an olive grove, or construct illegal settlements, line the ground with hundreds of women and children so that bulldozer will have to kill innocent people in order to advance Israeli colonization of the West Bank. Oh, and don't forget to tell the BBC to bring their cameras.