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Making Decisions Based on Poor Information


Cameron

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A new book by Chris Wattie outlines the poor media coverage of the war in Afghanistan. Chris Wattie was one of the first reporters embedded with the Canadian Military in 2003 and went back in 2006.

The book raises some good points about coverage and the outcome.

One area I wanted to focus on was the media coverage that the Taliban look for. From the article:

The Taliban, led in this offensive by Mullah Dadullah Akhund, knew of this transition from reading "with interest the ongoing debate in the Canadian media about the Afghan mission and in particular the extraordinary public outpouring of grief that followed the first deaths" of Canadian soldiers in 2003.

Dadullah planned to take full advantage of the "weak" politicians and the strong public sentiment. He believed "that if the Taliban could cause enough deaths and injuries among (the Canadian) battle group . . . the Canadian public would raise an enormous outcry." Dadullah believed that outcry could cause Ottawa to pull the troops out, which in turn would cause other NATO troops to pull out and eventually lead to American withdrawal.

This part intrigued me because of the fact that the Taliban is looking for advantages to raise the anti-war sentiment. With the current events that have taken place, I ask the question about timing and, taking into account the above quote, the possibility that the Taliban is looking to stir up anger in Canadians around the Christmas period.

For months we have heard nothing from the media on the war. I haven't seen any reports on the progress that is being made or what struggles NATO forces are facing. The only time Canadians pay attention is when troops die and that brings out strong feelings about the mission.

With those strong feelings there are usually calls to stop our involvement that may be based on poor information, or a knee jerk reaction to the massive amount of negative information pouring out for a short period of time.

If the Taliban is exploiting certain times of the year to get sympathy votes, how are Canadians supposed to get reliable information on the true progress of the war?

This is a concerning factor because of the decisions that could be made and the outcomes of those decisions.

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Edited by Cameron
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It's a challenge for a democratic society to balance the principles of openness, questioning of authority, with supporting our troops and keeping up morale. It's even more difficult to do this in an environment that alternately overstates and understates the importance of emotion in such things.

You're right, Cameron, that it's difficult to get reliable information on the war. Part of this is due to the nature of the enemy in this case. The Taliban is elusive and essentially unbeatable in that they will never surrender.

The government might do better to communicate other achievements to Canadians - such as progress on infrastructure, stability in the cities, improved education. My understanding is that the Afghan people want us to stay, and communicating our achievements might make us understand better why we're there.

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Does the Taliban control our media? I'm not aware of any Taliban-Canadian newspaper editors.

I too would like to know why we hear nothing about any pervceived "progress" in Afghanistan. Since the government is in charge of disseminating or restricting information about the war, and since it would be tremendously in their favour to tell us about the good news, one can onle conclude- there really isn't any.

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Micheal, the government does have a dedicated page to the Afghan war.

CF Page on Afghanistan

Sources like this are filled with useful information on the the war. Most people are either too lazy or just don't care to take the time to read through to get information. People are becoming more and more used to being spoon fed information and if you get used to that, then you loose the ability to be objective when you make arguments.

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Well, Cameron, I thank you for that. Although the page is somewhat lacking, the four priorities are clearly stated there.

Also, when you talk about the electorate wanting spoon-fed information, you're preaching to the converted. I think that the biggest challenge facing Canada is the apathy of the electorate. Our health care systems are failing mostly because the public doesn't demand better.

And this problem repeats itself in ministerial portfolio after portfolio.

The solution ? MapleLeafWeb of course... :ph34r:

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Our health care systems are failing mostly because the public doesn't demand better.

What if people DID demand better only to be shot down by other groups that play on a sympathetic note with the public.

Here in NS I am privy to the Provincial Government workings (President of a Constituency) and have seen the negative push by opposition parties work. Example:

The NS government started to look at alternatives to the public system to alleviate some of the pressure that was building up. One option that they looked at was a private clinic that did kneed surgeries. This clinic provided the service for profit but charged the government. They studied the outcome of the venture and found that;

1) The cost to do a surgery in the public system was est. $3000 vs. est. $1500 for the private system.

2) Standards were the same for the private clinic as were found in the public system. The government had strict regulations to ensure that the level of service was the same if not better.

The negative push came form the NS NDP party in the form of the usual public/privatization rant. People would buy it up because the NDP pushed those buttons that would get people angry. People would form opinions that were not based on sound information and that could lead to a vote swing.

The media this end of the country always leans towards the party that is not in power. There seems to be this mentality that if you are conservative you are part of the "bad guys" (using the PC's who are in power).

This all comes back to the amount of information and the level of accuracy that is being reported.

Another example:

The media can dig up the coffee budget for the Department of Community Services but can find out how much knee surgery costs at a private clinic or even report of weather that clinic does a better job than the public service.

Edited by Cameron
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Does the Taliban control our media? I'm not aware of any Taliban-Canadian newspaper editors.

I too would like to know why we hear nothing about any pervceived "progress" in Afghanistan. Since the government is in charge of disseminating or restricting information about the war, and since it would be tremendously in their favour to tell us about the good news, one can onle conclude- there really isn't any.

The media would have been considered traitorous in a bygone era in the the loose mouth reporting style that is so pervassive. The Taliban do have computers - and satallite phones and access to international media of all sorts including ours. When they view our rediculous display of sensationalizm that is the ramp ceremony and the propgandic pomp of that travesty of emotional manipulation that is the Highway of Heros...they come to a logical conclution ----------------------keep killing as many Canadians as they can and public opinion will remove the troops...how will the government get to eat their cake and have it to in these regards ...they need the propoganda of human sacrafical display and at the same time they need secrecy to wage war effectively - You can't have it both ways.

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"The coverage — with a few rare exceptions — had not been good," said Wattie. "It’s actually . . . been quite remarkably bad."

An embedded reporter himself, Wattie claims that inexperienced reporters who do not leave the "main coalition base" do not have the information to create the context for events "so they end up waiting for another story about the next Canadian soldier or soldiers to be killed," — what amounts to a grim death watch.

From the article in post #1

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Cam,

What if people DID demand better only to be shot down by other groups that play on a sympathetic note with the public.

Here in NS I am privy to the Provincial Government workings (President of a Constituency) and have seen the negative push by opposition parties work. Example:

The NS government started to look at alternatives to the public system to alleviate some of the pressure that was building up. One option that they looked at was a private clinic that did kneed surgeries. This clinic provided the service for profit but charged the government. They studied the outcome of the venture and found that;

1) The cost to do a surgery in the public system was est. $3000 vs. est. $1500 for the private system.

2) Standards were the same for the private clinic as were found in the public system. The government had strict regulations to ensure that the level of service was the same if not better.

The negative push came form the NS NDP party in the form of the usual public/privatization rant. People would buy it up because the NDP pushed those buttons that would get people angry. People would form opinions that were not based on sound information and that could lead to a vote swing.

The media this end of the country always leans towards the party that is not in power. There seems to be this mentality that if you are conservative you are part of the "bad guys" (using the PC's who are in power).

This all comes back to the amount of information and the level of accuracy that is being reported.

Another example:

The media can dig up the coffee budget for the Department of Community Services but can find out how much knee surgery costs at a private clinic or even report of weather that clinic does a better job than the public service.

Sympathetic notes can not be played with rational instruments, only emotional ones.

If the NDP says that something is worse or better then let them come up with some numbers.

If we, as the public, play everything on an emotional symphony we'll be the ones who end up being played.

Let's have every side tell us:

1) costs

2) quality of service

3) timing

Then we pick a direction and follow through, monitoring them all the way.

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government. They studied the outcome of the venture and found that;

1) The cost to do a surgery in the public system was est. $3000 vs. est. $1500 for the private system.

Frankly that shocks me. Taking it at face value I wonder what causes the public system's operation to be twice the cost of a for profit system's operation.

If it were ture, I am also shocked that the opposition by the NDP couldn't be turned into a landmine for them...why are they opposed to affordable public healthcare...are they more interested in union jobs than public health...etc etc etc...

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Momo,

Frankly that shocks me. Taking it at face value I wonder what causes the public system's operation to be twice the cost of a for profit system's operation.

If it were ture, I am also shocked that the opposition by the NDP couldn't be turned into a landmine for them...why are they opposed to affordable public healthcare...are they more interested in union jobs than public health...etc etc etc...

I'm shocked that you're shocked. A cynic like you is very difficult to surprised, let alone shock.

Whether or not the values shown are correct or not, it's not surprising that publicly run institutions are more difficult to keep efficient. Private institutions have bigger carrots and sticks (more money for the talented and clever managers who run the show, and easier to fire those who don't run the show) plus they tend to be populated by people who are focused on the job rather than office (or provincial) politics.

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More info on the public/private partnership:

More than 500 more orthopedic surgeries will be performed

over the next year as a result of a Department of Health-approved

contract between Capital Health and Scotia Surgery Inc.

Health Minister Chris d'Entremont announced a one-year

project today (March 12th) that will have Capital Health surgeons

perform publicly insured, minor day surgeries on patients waiting

for orthopedic surgeries at Scotia Surgery's Dartmouth clinic.

Mr. d'Entremont says the project will help address some of

the province's longest wait times and provide timely access to

care for Nova Scotians.

Link

Follow up:

The province is making progress to ensure Nova Scotians get

faster access to health care.

Health Minister Chris d'Entremont says Nova Scotia is

approaching a turning point when it comes to shorter wait times.

Provincial waits for long-term care and home care are

dropping, as are wait times for a number of key surgeries,

tests and treatments.

Efforts to add beds, add programs and new equipment, and

successes in recruiting and retaining health-care providers

contribute to the improvements.

Mr. d'Entremont says there is more work to do, but he

is encouraged by the early successes.

Link

The opposition has made a case for public/private partnerships in the fact that they think it will be a "gateway" to a full private system. I personally like the initiative taken by the government in finding a different solution to the problem of wait times.

A friend of mine works for the Dept. of Heath here in NS and she says it's full of time wasting BS. Everything from people who don't care to restrictive union contracts.

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One area I wanted to focus on was the media coverage that the Taliban look for. From the article:

This part intrigued me because of the fact that the Taliban is looking for advantages to raise the anti-war sentiment. With the current events that have taken place, I ask the question about timing and, taking into account the above quote, the possibility that the Taliban is looking to stir up anger in Canadians around the Christmas period.

I dunno...the whole thing sounds bunky to me. Naturally, the Taliban want to embolden the Anti-war sentement amongst Canadians. Apparently they achieve this by killing Canadian soldiers. But I wonder, if it were not for thier determination to mold weak Canadian minds, would they be killing Canadian soldiers? Well, of course they would. So Canadian soldiers are going to be killed by the Taliban no matter what Dadulah-kabula-or-whateverhisname-is reads.

Deaths of Canadian soldiers are going to have an impact on Canadians no matter what the Taliban (or the linked embedded reporter) thinks or what thier aims are.

The implication of your statement, as Sir Bandalot pointed out, is that the Media in this country are somehow tools of the Talibans Propaganda department. In that they report the deaths of Canadian soldiers.

And by reporting the deaths of Canadian soldiers, give opportunity to certain persons to criticize the involvment of Canada in the war against the Taliban. Certain Persons being Me, to be precise.

In order to not be pawns of the Taliban, under this line of reasoning, no one must criticize the involvement of Canada in Afghanistan. Nor should we be angered by reports of dead Canadian soldiers since such reports are mere taliban propaganda.

It seems Canadians, must suck it up until victory and remain silent.

To do otherwise is to be a pawn of the Taliban

and that is bunk.

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You want a website for the war.... www.skyreporter.com Arthur Kent's website, another site is www.bourque.org and just scroll down on the left side you can read Middle-Eastern news near the bottom.

Oh yea....Arthur Kent is a refugee from an American television network (NBC), and has done quite well as a "war" journalist (and scavenger) on the flesh of American foreign policy. Let's hope he can do as well with the Canadian version.

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I think that the biggest challenge facing Canada is the apathy of the electorate. Our health care systems are failing mostly because the public doesn't demand better.

The challange facing individual Canadians is how to overcome the apathy of the system. Its really up to individuals to make their own demands known. My family has only had success at overcoming apathy in the health system by being strong advocates for family members in need of it. Most health workers in my experience respond to your concern if you clearly demonstrate it. You literally have to become a lobbyist by camping out in the hospital lobby and keep up the pressure to bring every resource it can to bear on your loved one's care.

And this problem repeats itself in ministerial portfolio after portfolio.

Forget the ministerial level, focus your efforts on appealing to the humanity of the line workers you confront, they're the one's who do the work.

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