The problems in europe

[JerrySeinfeld]

How can we ignore

THIS

as a model of multiculturlism and tolerance?

Some excerpts (from brussels):

More people in the political mainstream are arguing that Islam cannot be reconciled with European values.

"You saw what happened with the pope," said Patrick Goeman, 43, the owner of Raga, a funky wine bar in central Antwerp, half an hour outside Brussels. "He said Islam is an aggressive religion. And the next day they kill a nun somewhere and make his point.

"Rationality is gone."

and

Goeman is hardly an extremist. In fact, he organized a protest last week in which 20 bars and restaurants closed on the night when a far-right party with an anti-Muslim message held a rally nearby.

His worry is shared by centrists across Europe disturbed that any criticism of Islam or Muslim immigration provokes threats of violence.

For years, those who raised their voices were mostly on the far right. Now those normally seen as moderates - ordinary people as well as politicians - are asking whether once unquestioned values of tolerance and multiculturalism should have limits.

I love this one:

But many Europeans - even those who generally support immigration - have begun talking more bluntly about cultural differences, specifically about Muslims' deep religious beliefs and social values, which are far more conservative than those of most Europeans on issues like women's rights and homosexuality.

"A lot of people, progressive ones - we are not talking about nationalists or the extreme right - are saying, 'Now we have this religion, it plays a role and it challenges our assumptions about what we learned in the '60s and '70s,'" said Joost Lagendijk, a Dutch member of the European Parliament for the Green Left Party who is active on Muslim issues.

"So there is this fear," he said, "that we are being transported back in a time machine where we have to explain to our immigrants that there is equality between men and women, and gays should be treated properly. Now there is the idea we have to do it again."

hmmmm...

Perhaps most wrenching has been the issue of free speech and expression, and the growing fear that any criticism of Islam could provoke violence.

In France last month, a secondary school teacher went into hiding after receiving death threats for writing an article calling the Prophet Muhammad "a merciless warlord, a looter, a mass murderer of Jews and a polygamist." In Germany, a Mozart opera with an additional scene showing the severed heads of Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha and Poseidon was canceled because of security fears.

With each incident, mainstream leaders are speaking more plainly.

"Self-censorship does not help us against people who want to practice violence in the name of Islam," Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany said in criticizing the opera's cancellation. "It makes no sense to retreat."

Is there even a debate where ultra tolerance leads?

[Michael Hardner]

Is there even a debate where ultra tolerance leads?

Jerry, the article points to popular doubts over integration. I don't think many people would argue that there aren't doubts over integration.

What you're putting forward isn't the same thing. You simply sow derision over people of the Muslim faith.

What exactly is 'ultra tolerance' ? What are you proposing in contrast ?

[JerrySeinfeld]

What you're putting forward isn't the same thing. You simply sow derision over people of the Muslim faith.

What is wrong with pointing out the truth - that there is a conflict in basic values between Islam and the "west" - and that this conflict will grow over time.

What exactly is 'ultra tolerance' ? What are you proposing in contrast ?

"Ultra tolerance" is tolerance at all costs. Canadians, Europeans, and the US to a lesser degree, are so very proud of our"tolerant" multicultural societies.

And generally there is lots to be proud of. Multiculturalism means more restaurant and entertainment variety.

But when people in a society become so obsessed with being tolerant - and wear it like a kid at school with a track meet ribbon "yay look at me how tolerant I am of everybody" - without even stopping to think about what exactly you're being tolerant of - then it becomes mindless ultra tolerance.

I am proposing dialogue. We need to be able to talk openly about these things - about what we will and will not tolerate as a society. That'swhat free societies do. They don't shut down debate with cries of racism. That's lazy.

Not every issue involving a minority is the civil rights movement. This isn't about a hard-done-by minority enslaved and oppressed. It's something different. It's about and extremely confident and empowered minority with some very different beliefs. People need to realize that.

Edited December 13, 2008 by JerrySeinfeld

[Michael Hardner]

Jerry,

What is wrong with pointing out the truth - that there is a conflict in basic values between Islam and the "west" - and that this conflict will grow over time.

1) What's wrong with pointing out the truth ?

Nothing - as long as it's helpful. How often do you go to a party and interrupt the host in the middle of a story to tell her she has bad breath ?

2) There is a conflict in basic values between Islam and the "west".

That depends on whether you're talking about Western Islam or not.

3) This conflict will grow over time.

I completely disagree. I dont' see any reason why Muslims will adapt differently than any other religion.

What exactly is 'ultra tolerance' ? What are you proposing in contrast ?

"Ultra tolerance" is tolerance at all costs. Canadians, Europeans, and the US to a lesser degree, are so very proud of our"tolerant" multicultural societies.

Give a specific example please.

And generally there is lots to be proud of. Multiculturalism means more restaurant and entertainment variety.

But when people in a society become so obsessed with being tolerant - and wear it like a kid at school with a track meet ribbon "yay look at me how tolerant I am of everybody" - without even stopping to think about what exactly you're being tolerant of - then it becomes mindless ultra tolerance.

Again, specific example please.

[Oleg Bach]

A united Europe is Hitlers dream come true - but Hitler never thought things through in a rational manner. So this is the result of a wall - less house...stocked with intruders who ramble about from room to room wrecking the place - nations need walls. Privacy and focus is neccesary to bring out the best in people - the common union has created a continent of roving maraders..and it will get worse - socialism and open boarders do not work - nor does some pie in the sky utopian immigration policy.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Michael, it's about posture.

If a strong, confident, empowered culture thinks that it is objectively better than ours, and we cower in the corner apologizing and accomodating, then that strong confident culture will gradually gain control and dictate the terms.

As for your comment that Islam will intergrate the same as all the others, I have cited many european experiences because europe is further down the road than we are and happy to post more if you wish, clearly demonstrating that in fact Islam has not been integrating well at all.

As a euro-elite politician said not so long ago - europe is have a great deal of difficulty "adjusting to it's large and growing muslim population".

Isn't that a strange posture to take?

Shouldn't the Muslim population be "adjusting" to europe, and not the other way around?

[Michael Hardner]

Michael, it's about posture.

If a strong, confident, empowered culture thinks that it is objectively better than ours, and we cower in the corner apologizing and accomodating, then that strong confident culture will gradually gain control and dictate the terms.

Sorry, Jerry, I don't know how to define a 'strong' culture, although I will say that you certainly seem to admire the strength of Islam.

In a certain respect, though, Islamic clerics who don't want to admit a secular culture don't really show confidence about the faith of their adherents. Kind of like born-again Christians who want to ban the devil's music, they themselves seem to be threatened.

As for your comment that Islam will intergrate the same as all the others, I have cited many european experiences because europe is further down the road than we are and happy to post more if you wish, clearly demonstrating that in fact Islam has not been integrating well at all.

Your penchant for quoting individual examples is a far cry from the kind of evidence that would be required (and, in fact, is almost impossible to furnish) to prove such an argument.

As a euro-elite politician said not so long ago - europe is have a great deal of difficulty "adjusting to it's large and growing muslim population".

Isn't that a strange posture to take?

I don't think so. Do you ? You seem to agree with that point of view. There was a great deal of difficult integrating all of the European cultures into one 'America', too. The fact that it happened so long ago makes it seem like the integration was easy.

Shouldn't the Muslim population be "adjusting" to europe, and not the other way around?

People should be able to 'pursue happiness', Jerry, not be told to 'adjust' or whatever you're implying that you will force religious folks to do.

[Oleg Bach]

Making Muslim woman uncover their heads by force of European law is tragic. You either have inclusiveness or you don't - Forced assumulation of religions to secualism is no better than forcing relgion on secularists. Both are wrong. It is either slavery and submission or freedom for all. You can not have it both ways.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Sorry, Jerry, I don't know how to define a 'strong' culture, although I will say that you certainly seem to admire the strength of Islam.

I absolutely do.

In a certain respect, though, Islamic clerics who don't want to admit a secular culture don't really show confidence about the faith of their adherents. Kind of like born-again Christians who want to ban the devil's music, they themselves seem to be threatened.

That would be a good point if our leaders weren't rushing to visit a mosque and apologize whenever a muslim killed a bunch of innocents. Your point has merit, but in the context of our weakness, their still strong.

People should be able to 'pursue happiness', Jerry, not be told to 'adjust' or whatever you're implying that you will force religious folks to do.

I guess time will tell. However the early indications in the seething riotous suburbs of Paris and the gay bashing streets of Brussels aren't encouraging

Edited December 13, 2008 by JerrySeinfeld

[Oleg Bach]

Gypsies, homo-sexuals -bashing - Jews and now Muslims - sounds familiar...someone is stirring up the masses to create a diversion...I guess we did not learn a thing last time around. How quickly we forget. It is as if the people responsible must have said - "That generation is dead now and everyone has forgotten...lets try it again"

[Michael Hardner]

Actually, Oleg, some of us have learned. Racial scapegoating can definitely lead to the conclusion that the race in question has to be eliminated.

And Jerry -

That would be a good point if our leaders weren't rushing to visit a mosque and apologize whenever a muslim killed a bunch of innocents. Your point has merit, but in the context of our weakness, their still strong.

Our leaders rush to visit a mosque and apologize whenever a muslim kills innocents ?

What ?

I guess time will tell. However the early indications in the seething riotous suburbs of Paris and the gay bashing streets of Brussels aren't encouraging

Europe has had riots before. Again, you arrive at the argument with the reason for all of this already set in your mind.

Edited December 13, 2008 by Michael Hardner

[August1991]

And generally there is lots to be proud of. Multiculturalism means more restaurant and entertainment variety.

No, multiculturalism at its origins in Canada merely meant that there is no official state culture. IOW, culture is a private matter.

If a strong, confident, empowered culture thinks that it is objectively better than ours, and we cower in the corner apologizing and accomodating, then that strong confident culture will gradually gain control and dictate the terms.

You make it sound as if "culture" were a corporation trying to enter a new market and eliminate the competition. It doesn't work that way.

Bulgarians survived 500 years under Ottoman rule. Acadians and Jews are still Acadian and Jewish.

Europe has had riots before. Again, you arrive at the argument with the reason for all of this already set in your mind.

Michael, I agree. Jerry, like too many in life, has a conclusion and now he's searching for an argument.

It's a lazy way to think.

----

In all of this, I'm inclined to agree with Black Dog and Michael on these questions. Individuals like to be free to choose. We must guarantee this freedom above all. The rest will take care of itself.

[BC_chick]

I'm with Michael H on this as well. I think Jerry's just trying to find a way to rationalise actions such as this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w45VmMyoppM

or a funnier (yet scarier) video:

I think Muslims are the only visible ethnic-group (ethnic being key word there, I exclude sexual-orientation on purpose) against whom open discrimination seems to be acceptable these days.

Edited December 14, 2008 by BC_chick

[Mr.Canada]

Muslims have earned it. WIth the barbaric Sharia laws or stoning the woman who was raped, the constant beheadings and the reign of terror they are responsible for. Nobody but white urbanites stand up for these radical Islamists. White liberal guilt at its finest.

[Griz]

Muslims have earned it. WIth the barbaric Sharia laws or stoning the woman who was raped, the constant beheadings and the reign of terror they are responsible for. Nobody but white urbanites stand up for these radical Islamists. White liberal guilt at its finest.

Ship Mr Canada back to Europe

[August1991]

Ship Mr Canada back to Europe

By what law? Or by an arbitrary order?

Griz, is that the society you want? A society of arbitrary order?

[Argus]

People should be able to 'pursue happiness', Jerry, not be told to 'adjust' or whatever you're implying that you will force religious folks to do.

What if their pursuit of happiness involves your conversion to their way of thinking - or your death?

Should they still be able to pursue their happiness?

[Argus]

You make it sound as if "culture" were a corporation trying to enter a new market and eliminate the competition. It doesn't work that way.

Bulgarians survived 500 years under Ottoman rule. Acadians and Jews are still Acadian and Jewish.

I take it, then, you disagree with efforts made to preserve Quebec's language and culture?

In all of this, I'm inclined to agree with Black Dog and Michael on these questions. Individuals like to be free to choose. We must guarantee this freedom above all. The rest will take care of itself.

How do you guarantee freedom when a growing population within your society does not believe in such freedom? When that population grows to a size it can threaten your freedom it might well be too late to take any action.

[Argus]

I think Muslims are the only visible ethnic-group (ethnic being key word there, I exclude sexual-orientation on purpose) against whom open discrimination seems to be acceptable these days.

Who is advocating discrimination within Canada against Muslims? More to the point, if it's acceptable please provide me with references which show that discrimination in action. Since it's acceptable I'm sure you'll have no difficulty providing all sorts of cites.

I've asked this before: How would the left feel if we were to begin to bring in say 100,000 fundamentalist southern baptists from Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama and the like every single year? Do you feel that as their numbers grow they might at some point pose a threat to your beliefs in equality of the genders, in gay rights, and other cherished ideals?

I ask this because the Left has no difficulty expressing its contempt and disdain for "southern rednecks" and "Christian fundamentalists" but is aghast at the thought of "discriminating" against Muslims despite their similar attitudes towards Left wing ideals. The Left is blind, dumb and stupid in this way.

A million Muslims are easily tolerated, BC. What about when there are ten million? Ten million voters in favour of criminalizing homosexuals, executing abortion doctors, and requiring women to have their husband or father or brother's consent before they undertake legal actions of any sort. Would that be a problem for you?

[Michael Hardner]

What if their pursuit of happiness involves your conversion to their way of thinking - or your death?

Should they still be able to pursue their happiness?

Arg,

This is a simple question. Of course not.

[Michael Hardner]

Argus,

Who is advocating discrimination within Canada against Muslims? More to the point, if it's acceptable please provide me with references which show that discrimination in action. Since it's acceptable I'm sure you'll have no difficulty providing all sorts of cites.

I've asked this before: How would the left feel if we were to begin to bring in say 100,000 fundamentalist southern baptists from Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama and the like every single year? Do you feel that as their numbers grow they might at some point pose a threat to your beliefs in equality of the genders, in gay rights, and other cherished ideals?

I ask this because the Left has no difficulty expressing its contempt and disdain for "southern rednecks" and "Christian fundamentalists" but is aghast at the thought of "discriminating" against Muslims despite their similar attitudes towards Left wing ideals. The Left is blind, dumb and stupid in this way.

A million Muslims are easily tolerated, BC. What about when there are ten million? Ten million voters in favour of criminalizing homosexuals, executing abortion doctors, and requiring women to have their husband or father or brother's consent before they undertake legal actions of any sort. Would that be a problem for you?

That's exactly the point: what are the anti-Muslims on this board advocating ? You can't get them to answer that most of the time. Instead, we have to endure endless posts of faulty logic trying to 'prove' the evil of a certain religion.

And, many hard leftists actually do think that they're threatened by the "growing" Christian right. My guess is that has more to say about the general paranoia of those with more extreme political views.

[BC_chick]

Who is advocating discrimination within Canada against Muslims? More to the point, if it's acceptable please provide me with references which show that discrimination in action. Since it's acceptable I'm sure you'll have no difficulty providing all sorts of cites.

I've asked this before: How would the left feel if we were to begin to bring in say 100,000 fundamentalist southern baptists from Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama and the like every single year? Do you feel that as their numbers grow they might at some point pose a threat to your beliefs in equality of the genders, in gay rights, and other cherished ideals?

I ask this because the Left has no difficulty expressing its contempt and disdain for "southern rednecks" and "Christian fundamentalists" but is aghast at the thought of "discriminating" against Muslims despite their similar attitudes towards Left wing ideals. The Left is blind, dumb and stupid in this way.

A million Muslims are easily tolerated, BC. What about when there are ten million? Ten million voters in favour of criminalizing homosexuals, executing abortion doctors, and requiring women to have their husband or father or brother's consent before they undertake legal actions of any sort. Would that be a problem for you?

I'm not saying let's open the floodgates with more Muslim immigration, I am just shocked with how easily some people condone discrimination and how easily they express negative opinions about Muslims as a whole when they would not be so candid in their opinions of other races/ethnicities.

You ask for examples, you mean specifically in Canada or did you not watch the two youtube links I left?

As for Muslims' views on gays and the 'left' being conflicted about the two, your point is well taken. Admittedly, I have a hard time reconciling the issue, I won't lie. Blacks too, but to a lesser degree. However, casting all blacks or Muslims as homophobic does nothing to resolve the issue. Creating more divisions in a society never helps to mend the differences. Only education can do that.

[Sir Bandelot]

However, casting all blacks or Muslims as homophobic does nothing to resolve the issue. Creating more divisions in a society never helps to mend the differences. Only education can do that.

Ahmadinejad- "We do not have such problems." - riiight... The problem is simply that they are in denial. And I don't mean the river.

[bush_cheney2004]

....As for Muslims' views on gays and the 'left' being conflicted about the two, your point is well taken. Admittedly, I have a hard time reconciling the issue, I won't lie. Blacks too, but to a lesser degree. However, casting all blacks or Muslims as homophobic does nothing to resolve the issue. Creating more divisions in a society never helps to mend the differences. Only education can do that.

"Blacks too".....?????? You have a hard time reconciling "blacks" who might hold such views but not other "races"? Do you know what a Southern Baptist congregation can look like?

[Oleg Bach]

"Blacks too".....?????? You have a hard time reconciling "blacks" who might hold such views but not other "races"? Do you know what a Southern Baptist congregation can look like?

No - but they sure have good gospel choirs....................Blacks in Toronto are hated by our judicary - they let them walk so they can continue to kill each other...some of the smarter ones have figured it out - but not many. Did meet a very fine black opera singer at an art opening last night - here parents are professors...and man could she sing - for all the rich white folk..she wants to be a pop deva...she's tired of howling for acedemic elitists.