Mumbai Terror

[Oleg Bach]

Here is what I don't get. If Pakistan was originally part of India and partioned off as a "homeland" for Muslims..much like Israel was sectioned out to provide a homeland.....and - Pakistan is Islamic but an allie of America - who is supposedly waging a war against Islamics (extremists) ...Then - how can a foe be a friend at the same time? Just like the aging boycott on "communist" Cuba by the Americans - how the hell do you managed to have an American Prison Camp on your enemies turf ------ some one is playing a game here.. And where is that Saudi spoiled Islamic prince BIN LADIN....? Does anyone have a clue? Fraud seems to abound in the world of politics..but as I said - the very definition of politican is LIAR.

[kimmy]

She was being sarcastic...

Well, I was trying to anticipate what the conspiracy crew will probably be saying about this.

I certainly don't believe it's a "false flag" operation. I believe that it's face-value. India has had significant recent trouble with Islamist* terror, and this appears to be more of the same. Terror attacks in India usually don't even rate a mention on the news; this one is news primarily because of the brazen nature of the attack and the choice to target Westerners as well as Hindus.

-k

* note the use of the term "Islamist" as opposed to "Muslim". A Muslim is a follower of Islam; an Islamist is someone who believes in creating a Muslim state.

Edited November 27, 2008 by kimmy

[White Doors]

Such as? . . .

No really - can you find me one post where he presents an actual case for something and proceeds to build on it and defend it? I mean since you can't resist getting involved in this.

Such as? . . .

Usually I get criticized for my posts being too long - so it's surprising to see someone accusing me of only posting one-liners.

Maybe you have me confused with someone else.

Nope, I simply click on your name and can look at the nonsense you post. No links to be seen, just drivel about how there is no problems with Islam and there is no such thing as radical Islam etc etc etc...

There is a problem, you are just too gutless to see it.

[Oleg Bach]

Links take time and effort...I believe it is electronic research and due diligence....I can get away with out posting links. Reason number one - I am to old and lazy to learn how to do it - number two - I am old and depend on the links in my head.. Or is that clinks?

[kimmy]

I am old and depend on the links in my head.. Or is that clinks?

I sometimes wonder if it's "drinks", Oleg.

-k

[eyeball]

The attack is a response to Western interference in India and the Middle East?

But they said they're fighting oppression of Muslims in India, and demanding the release of "mujahideen" fighters being held by the Indian government.

Maybe the interference they're mad about is that India is interfering in their plans to make the Kashmir area into a sovereign Muslim nation.

-k

Could be. The key thing is people are mad about interference which of course seems to lead to more interference just like violence leads to more violence.

Round and round and round it goes.

[Oleg Bach]

Could be. The key thing is people are mad about interference which of course seems to lead to more interference just like violence leads to more violence.

Round and round and round it goes.

Much like a wife or husband in contention that bring up long gone past misdeeds - which disrupts the potential for peace and happiness in the house hold. It is better to forgive quickly and move on and be happy. Some hold a grudge because they are just plain stupid. To hold on to the dark past and project that darkness into the future - only ensures more suffering. You have to move on - and forgive...The ONLY way to stop war is to love your enemy. This gives the advesary a choice ...to love back or to die from being consumed by their own hate...it's logic.

[DogOnPorch]

Attempting to portray Islam as inherently bad.

I'm with Thomas Paine when it comes to all religions. Islam is just the worst of the bunch followed by Christianity. The rest are just behind that, in my opinion....of course.

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. 
---Thomas Paine

If you had pegged me with any more an intelligent label, it would have been surprising.

I paint what I see.

After all - you're completely incapable of discussing ANY issue at length. I don't think I've ever seen you post more than a paragraph. The vast majority of your posts are one-liners, personal insults, and supreme generalizations - hardly the stuff that convinces anyone of anything - no matter what issue is being discussed and what position you're taking.

Do you have the capacity to have a discussion about ANYTHING? - Because in all my time here I've yet to see it.

You needn't reply to my posts or threads if this is what you believe. Why not just start a new thread on the Mumbai attack and see who posts? Maybe you'll get your 'longer than a paragraph' responses. Either way, it seems like a waste of both your time and mine to level personal attacks and strawman logic at each other.

kimmy: What's that, specifically?

Yeah, eyeball...like kimmy, I'd like to know the answer to that one. Any chance of you blurting it out sometime soon?

----------------------------------------------------------

Let's get out the vote! Let's make our voices heard!

We've been given the right to choose between a douche and a turd.

It's democracy in action! Put your freedom to the test.

A big fat turd or a stupid douche. Which do you like best?

---South Park

[eyeball]

Yeah, eyeball...like kimmy, I'd like to know the answer to that one. Any chance of you blurting it out sometime soon?

The answer to that one.

[Oleg Bach]

Once you stop being terrified the terrorist like school yard bullies run away. You have to be willing to lose it all....Here I go again - It sounds like a scene out of Usual Suspects. "Those who try to save their lives will lose them. Those that are willing to lose their lives will find life" - In other words as in Usual Suspects...The scene where the mafia boss is being coerced with the threat of his family being killed - takes the gun and kills his own family and then says "What are you going to do now?" - This concept and bluff...works...They control you though what you love...Just like in the movie The Green Mile...."They are killing you with your own love and it's happening all over the world"...A MAN must be ready to lose all - then the bullies recede. This is the concept that I used to take on the courts - I told my brother that you have to be willing to lose your children in order to win them back - IT WORKED! Terrorists are the same everywhere.................. If they threaten to take what you love - give it to them! Then they have no more power................... what is nice is that they chicken out before you do - always! That's why they are terrorist and we are not - they are weak>

[WIP]

I'm with Thomas Paine when it comes to all religions. Islam is just the worst of the bunch followed by Christianity. The rest are just behind that, in my opinion....of course.

The first problem with trying to rank religions in order of risk is that the way adherents practice a religion may have little or no relation with the same religious dogmas that were considered crucial a few centuries, or even decades ago. In the Dark Ages, good Catholic bishops and priests were practicing the biblical injunction: "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." So why is that rule ignored by even the majority of today's fundamentalists? The only places where Christians are killing witches today are in the newly Christianized regions of Africa. The African churches are attacking the pre-existing animist religions and calling them satanists, just like the Church did in Europe when they were trying to eradicate local pagan beliefs and establish Christian supremacy. But for the rest of the world, witches are just another topic for fundie preachers to rail against each Sunday morning.

So is Islam inherently more dangerous than Christianity? Both religions claim to have transcendent knowledge that is a perfect revelation from the creator, and therefore, not subject to any legitimate criticism. The reason Christianity has adjusted to the modern world is that a decision was made centuries ago to allow for the separation of secular and religious life. After the Hundred Years War, Protestant churches and other schisms were tolerated, and vengeance against heretics was reserved for the next world.

In many regions, the main sects of Islam: Sunni, Shia, Sufi, were allowed to function, even though they considered each other infidels. But something has gone wrong over the last few decades, and the toughest, most uncompromising voices in the Muslim World are gaining influence. In Pakistan for example, the nation was set up as a secular Muslim state by a man who openly declared that he didn't actually believe in God himself. Now, they are instituting sharia law, putting women into burqas, and looking more and more like Saudi Arabia every day!

Now, if you follow the advice of atheists like Christopher Hitchens, and try to side with the Christians against the Muslims, you are fighting on behalf of the Christian equivalents of the Wahabbis. The most vocal advocates of "regime change," and "killing their leaders and converting the people to Christianity," would only be supporting Christian fascists who want to destroy secular and other enlightenment values in the West, and replace them with Christian theocracy.

It's worth noting that back in the dark ages, Jews, Gypsies and other minority groups preferred to settle in the Islamic Caliphate rather than risk extermination by the Church's followers, even where it mean't having to pay a punitive Jizya tax! If it ends up as a struggle between two fascist movements, like Nazism and Communism, then it will be difficult to decide which form of tyranny is the least oppressive!

[Oleg Bach]

Took a tour through the Koran, it gave me a pain in my head. Took a tour though the Christian New Testiment...maybe I had a bad translation of the Koran...and maybe the Paulist doctrines that were Roman manipulations, tainted the words of the Christ. After all is said and done and the garbage in the NT was put aside - Christianity was more gentle..more hopeful and less oppressive than Islam. So which is better - the father that beats you about the head or the father that lets you have your head. Christianity was more pleasant.

[Ontario Loyalist]

I suppose one of these days something like this is going to happen in Canada.

[WIP]

Took a tour through the Koran, it gave me a pain in my head. Took a tour though the Christian New Testiment...maybe I had a bad translation of the Koran...and maybe the Paulist doctrines that were Roman manipulations, tainted the words of the Christ. After all is said and done and the garbage in the NT was put aside - Christianity was more gentle..more hopeful and less oppressive than Islam. So which is better - the father that beats you about the head or the father that lets you have your head. Christianity was more pleasant.

'

Start your next tour of the Bible with the Old Testament next time, and contemplate fully the implication of God's people slaughtering men, women, children and livestock who were occupying the Promised Land, and consider that some of the battles specifically mention taking virgins as concubine slaves who may have been kept as sex slaves or sold off into prostitution. And God's order to exterminate every last Amalekite should give you pause for thought since non of the original members of that tribe, which attacked Moses and the Isrealites, would have been alive when the war of genocide was mentioned later.

Every evangelical who is bringing in new converts will tell new prospects to start reading the bible from the Gospel of John -- and they likely hope that finish this gospel, which is the most in harmony with present Christian dogma and does not continue their search beyond looking up specially cherry-picked verses that their pastor has mentioned in a sermon.

Most western-educated Muslims don't read all about the battles for Arabia and likely know as little about the verses that Al Qaeda uses to justify their beliefs, as most Christians know about the Old Testament!

[Oleg Bach]

I suppose one of these days something like this is going to happen in Canada.

Never - They come to Canada to escape stupidity. Any one who suggests that this will happen in Canada is a person with vested interests in the "homeland security" - nope....................Canadian immigrants are rejects of the terrorist faction....BUT like the Kdars............a few fools come and assume that hate is tolerated in a free liberal society that they find weakness in.

[Candice]

Most western-educated Muslims don't read all about the battles for Arabia and likely know as little about the verses that Al Qaeda uses to justify their beliefs, as most Christians know about the Old Testament!

Sad but true.

Im a living example.

Muslim, read the Qu'ran but have no idea what verses are used by Al Qaeda and/or about the battles {?}

[Oleg Bach]

What do our Christians know about the doctrine of behaviour? Nothing! Same as the Islamics - If you are going to teach religion, you had better teach in full..with logical debate included - Christianity is grand - as is Judaism.. as is Islam....................But there are no teachers to explain the phyliosophy...so they all wander about in a stupor.

[DogOnPorch]

Good post, WIP.

Indeed the Golden Age of Jews in Spain was under the Caliphate of Cordoba...Abd ar-Rahman saw the need for the Jews in the greater economy and was particularly enlightened for his time. Jews held high offices and such in the Muslim government. Things started to turn sour around 1000AD with the breakup of the caliphate and the arrival of the much less tolerant Berbers. The first big pogrom took place in 1066 in Granada where Muslims murdered nearly every Jew in the city. However, it was mere forshadowing as to the terror that would follow under the Christians once they retook Spain. The massacres seemed to peak during the 14th and 15th centuries with nearly continous attacks on the Jewish community. The final act of course was the Alhambra Decree which kicked all non-converted Jews out of Spain under pain of death.

(Note: Spain and Portugal are special in this area as they were the last bastions of Jews in Western Europe, the other kingdoms already having evicted them in the previous centuries for various 'medieval' reasons. This was also why the Kingdom of Poland was so important to the Jews as Poland's kings over the centuries were very friendly to the Jews for economic reasons. The Jews thrived and prospered there up until 1939.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland )

-The Spainish Inquisition (est. 1478) was a good example of Christianity being bad. When the Jews were forced to convert or leave Spain, the Inquisition was set up to watch over the newly converted Jews to make sure they were not merely Christian 'on paper'.

-The Witch Craze of the 1600s is another good example. However, it was the Protestants that seemed more affected by this craze than the RCs. In Germany, an estimated 250,000 women (and men) were put to death by numerous gruesome methods. You can download the Malleus Maleficarum online these days to see how crazy they were.

-CBC Radio had a program on yesterday (Weds 26th) about witchcraft in Christian Africa. Apparently albinos suffered and still suffer the worst in this situation.

--------------------------------------------

It is the 'want to know the end' that makes us believe in God, or witchcraft, believe, at least, in something.

---Truman Capote

Edited November 27, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[Oleg Bach]

Nominal Jews? Ha -- There are retorts from the Jews who refered to my family as nominal Christians...odd how Jews are expert in Christianity and Christians are expert in Judaism. There are Rastas...who insist that whites are just blacks who are flukish albinos who were more clever than animals (supposedly albinos do not breed in the animal kingdom) - who created the albino white human race. Bugs me how Ceylon is now Shrilanka - and the city that was India is now Mumbai. When it was a recongizalbe BOMBAY. Is it possible that with the hate of British colonialism that Mumbai was switched from Bombay out of sheer spite? Now - most people don't have a clue what's going on geographically? Wait - Persia -----------------------is now that stupid lunitic joint called Iran ------why did they change the names - what purpose did it serve? Is this some sort of political religious correctness gone bad?

[OddSox]

Iqaluit used to be called Frobisher Bay. Many other place names in our own North have been changed to reflect their Inuit origins.

I don't think they changed the name out of spite, but more a matter of being proud of their heritage.

[wulf42]

Attempting to portray Islam as inherently bad.

The Muslim world is doing a great job of that!

Edited November 28, 2008 by wulf42

[WIP]

-CBC Radio had a program on yesterday (Weds 26th) about witchcraft in Christian Africa. Apparently albinos suffered and still suffer the worst in this situation.

--------------------------------------------

It is the 'want to know the end' that makes us believe in God, or witchcraft, believe, at least, in something.

---Truman Capote

Yes, in some areas in Africa, there is a growing persecution of children, elderly women, albinos and mentally ill, who have been suspected of witchcraft. Most of these stories were ignored outside of Africa until Sarah Palin became the Republican Party's great white hope, and we learned that the visiting African pastor who asked for divine help in her gubernatorial campaign has been responsible for witch hunts. And just like they were in Europe centuries ago, the witchhunters are opportunists looking to profit from the fears and superstitions of the populace:

Muthee wanted to get control over the town of Kiambu, Kenya - a place just outside of Nairobi. Not content to set up a church and slowly gain the trust of the local inhabitants, Muthee decided to get publicity and gain political power through a piece of cruel theater.

Muthee chose a local woman named Mama Jane who happened to work as a fortune teller. Mama Jane had never caused much trouble before, but she was an important target for Muthee, because she was a close associate of town’s leaders. Muthee accused Mama Jane of being a sorceress - a witch who was engaging in spiritual warfare to curse to town of Kiambu.

Muthee’s proof of Mama Jane’s witchcraft? There had been three car accidents in the neighborhood of the clinic where Mama Jane worked. That, said Muthee, was sure evidence that Mamma Jane was a witch. So, Muthee got the local population in a panic, and sent three police officers into Mamma Jane’s. They fired their guns, killing one of Mama Jane’s pets.

Then, they arrested Mama Jane and threw her into jail. Muthee made his demand: “Mama Jane either gets saved and serves the Lord or she leaves town!”

When Mama Jane was finally released from jail, she fled town, fearing for her life.

This is the kind of activity that the Wasilla Assembly of God praises when it says of Muthee, “He has established and pastors hundreds of churches in Kenya.” Typical of those who use witch hunts as instruments of power, Muthee is a bully and a thug.

Edited November 28, 2008 by WIP

[White Doors]

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

---Thomas Paine

I think religion, probably all religions have been perverted by evil people over the millenia for power and control, however to blame it on religion is narrow-minded, I believe. Any creed, philosophy can and will be perverted for power and control by evil men. One only has to look at the philosophy of Marx to see an example of this.

One has to ask WHY? Why does this happen? There are many, many reasons, but I think it comes down to 'Group Think' more than any other thing.

Once a charasmatic leader can rally a group of people who loosely are of the same philosophical bent, he/she can pervert them to do all sorts of evil and despicable things. Things that as an individual, a person would never normally do. This is especially true in societies and times where 'individualism' is a foreign concept and people are not encouraged to think for themselves, but merely to obey the Priest, Rabbi, Party, State or 'leader' and to not question authority. In societies and times where the common man was not only not afraid to question authority, but the culture encouraged it, you do not see these things happening.

In the Arab and Muslim world, Individualism is a foreign concept. They will need to be exposed to different ideas and lines of thinking in order to put this all behind us.

As it is now, they will listen to their Imam and their perverted view of Islam followong them over the precipice like lemmings with promises of 72 virgins in the afterlife.

We need to combat that, both in the short term and longer term.

Short term would be to let it be known that our bullets are made with by-products of swine, longer term would be to offer an alternative view to their religion from main-stream sources. And continued secularization and education that doesn't teach them that jews are pigs and westerners are apes.

Edited November 28, 2008 by White Doors

[Argus]

Attempting to portray Islam as inherently bad.

It IS inherently bad.

[GostHacked]

It IS inherently bad.

As with most religions.