Gun Crime and Violent Crime

[tango]

I can understand fate, but when has Canadian society taken away your chioces...

Hey i understand that there is a need for this program, but i think we are lossing sight of it's intentions, which are to assist, not to solely provide for...or to train someone to speak english or french, but thier has to be a line in which we say hey not not entitled, those that are cronnically drunk or stoned, or abuse the system do not qualify, is that cold hearted, perhaps but it was thier choice.

Addiction is not a choice, but a disease.

[Moonbox]

There's a variety of reasons why people are on welfare.....................Some are refugees that do not speak English or French. Some are cronically drunk or stoned and will never be hired by anyone...

Personally I take exception to refugees living off welfare their whole lives and the chronically drunk or stoned can bugger off. They should be institutionalized into rehab because nobody should be paying for their addictions.

[tango]

Personally I take exception to refugees living off welfare their whole lives and the chronically drunk or stoned can bugger off. They should be institutionalized into rehab because nobody should be paying for their addictions.

What evidence do you have about "refugees living off welfare their whole lives"?? Isn't that a bit presumptuous?

Institutionalized rehab spots are few and far between, and it is much more expensive than paying welfare rates.

Hell, it costs over $40,000/yr just to keep an inmate in jail, without any rehab.

Welfare is much cheaper - about 1/7 of the cost.

As I keep saying, it is apparent that those who complain about people on welfare really don't know much about the system at all.

To assume that all addicts have a choice of going to residential rehab programs is extremely naive.

The programs are simply not available, and the cost is prohibitive.

Edited September 23, 2008 by tango

[segnosaur]

According to the 2004 U.N. Human Development Report, the percentage of people who were victims of crime was around 21% in the U.S. In Canada, it was 24%. And even though there may be more murders in the U.S. than in Canada, Canada has a higher rate for assault and sexual assault.

The US had more violent crime and Canada had more property crime.

1.8 homocides in 100,000 compared to 5.5 in the US. Aggravated assault? More than double in the US. Firearms in robberies? 41% to 16%. Drugs offences, impaired driving and prostitution... Yanks were Gold-medal champions again.

But when it came to breaks-ins and motor vehicle thefts, we were number 1, yay!

http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/85-0...185-002-XIE.pdf

But sure, it's way more dramatic to throw it all out there and say Canada had more "crime" all together.

There may be a problem with the data you provided. When comparing the 'crime rates' in the 2 countries, its possible that certain crimes may be classified differently in one country than another. Thus, what gets counted as an 'assult' in one country doesn't even get counted in another. The reference you provided even has a section (see page 3) where they give differences in the way certain crimes were counted.

That's why I prefer the statistics provided by the U.N... it bypasses the government (and any differences in the way crimes are classified) and goes right to the victims.

[Army Guy]

Addiction is not a choice, but a disease.

There a crock of shit, are you going to tell me with every education tool out there, not counting education from your peers.... that there is still some kid, adult that does not know about the effects of drugs and booze....and with all this knowledge is it still not a choice to try it once, or how many times.

It is a choice, like everything in life....those with this problem need to own it...they had a choice...and they took the wrong path....it's not some disease that they caught at the strip bar.... No that would be the politically correct version...Just like they can quit when they choose be it with help or what ever it's a choice they make....

[tango]

There a crock of shit, are you going to tell me with every education tool out there, not counting education from your peers.... that there is still some kid, adult that does not know about the effects of drugs and booze....and with all this knowledge is it still not a choice to try it once, or how many times.

It is a choice, like everything in life....those with this problem need to own it...they had a choice...and they took the wrong path....it's not some disease that they caught at the strip bar.... No that would be the politically correct version...Just like they can quit when they choose be it with help or what ever it's a choice they make....

There is very little help available.

You don't know much about addiction, do you?

[capricorn]

I don't answer personal questions on here, and you are out of line in asking.

I know enough to know that the 'training' provided by OW (ON) does not help the chronically unemployable with mental health, addiction or other health issues that don't qualify for disability.

Neither is it sufficient for teaching English.

It's mickey mouse stuff - do a resume, be on time, etc - no real job training or literacy education.

Then I will take it that your statement "the training component is entirely inadequate" is strictly your personal opinion and that in fact the training offered could be entirely adequate. It does make a difference in weighing whether able bodied adults on welfare have access to proper training and upgrading.

[noahbody]

But the best approach to the problem in general is to address the root cause - poverty. Once a person is relatively OK with their food, living conditions and freedom they will be more complacent and less likely to break the law (unless it's some silly ganja law).

Motivations for criminals vary. As far as gangs go, the need to belong and esteem needs are more relevant. Welfare does play a needed role as it stops people from having to steal a loaf of bread. Welfare, however, will never fill people with pride. It will never buy a BMW. It will never impress the chicks.

Though I'd say prisons aren't the answer for all criminal types, for violent gang members they are the best answer.

[segnosaur]

According to the 2004 U.N. Human Development Report, the percentage of people who were victims of crime was around 21% in the U.S. In Canada, it was 24%. And even though there may be more murders in the U.S. than in Canada, Canada has a higher rate for assault and sexual assault.

Granted, there ARE a lot more people in jail in the U.S., but a lot of that is due to jailing people over drug possession.

I think those statistics have a lot to do with reporting and definitions.

Actually, they don't. The figures that the U.N. provided were actually generated by using surveys distributed directly to the population. That way, they bypassed government statistics and any differences in reporting, classification, or even political 'spin' that might be put on the data.

It may not be perfect, but it seems to be the best data that we have.

I have walked through Detroit and I have walked through Toronto - there is no comparison at all.

Hey, I admit, there are some bad areas in the U.S. There are also many good, safe areas.

Crime rates correlate with demographics. Young people commit a lot crimes. We have fewer young people now, and their are more police officers per person to deal with them.

Hey, I admit, demographics does have a big impact, and an increase in the average age is likely a big factor in the decrease in crime. That's why a comparison with the U.S. can be useful.. similar demographics, but different economic factors.

[Moonbox]

Addiction is not a choice, but a disease.

Nobody anywhere anyhow is ever going to convince me of this one. "Addiction is a disease" is an excuse for stupidity. If stupidity is a disease, then we're on the same page. Getting addicted to heroin, for example, requires the profoundly idiotic leap to take that first hit. Addiction itself can be monumental to overcome once started, but starting it in the first place is an epic failure of character no matter what the circumstances.

Institutionalized rehab spots are few and far between, and it is much more expensive than paying welfare rates.

Hell, it costs over $40,000/yr just to keep an inmate in jail, without any rehab.

Welfare is much cheaper.

As I keep saying, it is apparent that those who complain about people on welfare really don't know much about the system at all.

To assume that all addicts have a choice of going to residential rehab programs is extremely naive.

The programs are simply not available.

I didn't assume you could just waltz in to a rehab clinic. I didn't say you could either. What I said was I was completely unsympathetic to the drug addicted welfare recipient's plight and that we should force them into some sort of rehab, and yeah, you're right, I didn't know how much it costs. Either way, it's naive to expect the public to pay to support drug addictions with public money. The welfare payments are not enough to support a decent lifestyle in the first place and when you add the addiction on top of that you can only assume the rest of the money is coming from abusing child benefits or crime.

What POSSIBLE benefit is there to supporting that?

Edited September 23, 2008 by Moonbox

[Army Guy]

There is very little help available.

You don't know much about addiction, do you?

So are you saying someone that wants to quit has no alteratives , ie no government help, no help from peers, no help from any oganization be from the hospital, etc etc....

No i don't , i do however know that it is thru my choice that i did not go down that road....and i do know everyone else had the same choice....only thats not what we are talking about is it... it about should these people who have made those choices collect welfare, and have there habit subsdized by the tax payer....

[kengs333]

So are you saying someone that wants to quit has no alteratives , ie no government help, no help from peers, no help from any oganization be from the hospital, etc etc....

No i don't , i do however know that it is thru my choice that i did not go down that road....and i do know everyone else had the same choice....only thats not what we are talking about is it... it about should these people who have made those choices collect welfare, and have there habit subsdized by the tax payer....

Or for that matter, should taxpayer money be used to support people who make a living by using gun violence posting disparaging remarks on Internet message boards--about gun violence, ironically enough--about their fellow citizens who are less fortunate?

Edited September 23, 2008 by kengs333

[guyser]

Nobody anywhere anyhow is ever going to convince me of this one.

Not scientists? Geneticists? People with a whole lot more smarts than both of us?

Sad really.

Or you could read here.............

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=Al...genes&meta=

Since 1784 Drs have said it is a disease.

[Moonbox]

Not scientists? Geneticists? People with a whole lot more smarts than both of us?

Sad really.

Or you could read here.............

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=Al...genes&meta=

Since 1784 Drs have said it is a disease.

you linked a google search page. What the heck?

Even so, I said that the actual addiction itself is similar to a disease in that there are very heavy physical consequences and complications. Putting yourself in a position to GET addicted is where you show a true failing of character on every level. Yes. I'm ultra judgemental. I know.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Moonbox

[Topaz]

I gues we have to look at what cost more to run prisons or welfare? Someone said it cost 40,000, I saw a report a couple months ago that said it cost $83,000 per person now. Welfare does allow the person to work and not all welfare cases are on drugs and booze. Both, governments, provincial and federal HAVE to do a better job of not letting in hand guns through the borders. Take the guns away and crime will go down along with more input from communities to guide the youth not to break the law. For the people who want to felt the power of a gun in their hands, then put them into the military where we need more troops.

[PoliticalCitizen]

So are you saying someone that wants to quit has no alteratives , ie no government help, no help from peers, no help from any oganization be from the hospital, etc etc....

No i don't , i do however know that it is thru my choice that i did not go down that road....and i do know everyone else had the same choice....only thats not what we are talking about is it... it about should these people who have made those choices collect welfare, and have there habit subsdized by the tax payer....

Not everyone gets a choice, AG.

Some are hooked from birth because their parents were addicts. Some are administered their first shot(s) by force. Some others find their personal lives so utterly depressing that they have to be on something all the time...

And when I said society takes away your choices I meant prison.

We have come a long way to abolish capital punishment. We should get rid of prisons next. Correctional institution should not be something that indoctrinates you even further into the criminal way of life, it should be something that teaches you the senses of guilt, compassion and gives you social skills necessary to live abiding the law in a normal society.

[PoliticalCitizen]

I gues we have to look at what cost more to run prisons or welfare? Someone said it cost 40,000, I saw a report a couple months ago that said it cost $83,000 per person now. Welfare does allow the person to work and not all welfare cases are on drugs and booze. Both, governments, provincial and federal HAVE to do a better job of not letting in hand guns through the borders. Take the guns away and crime will go down along with more input from communities to guide the youth not to break the law. For the people who want to felt the power of a gun in their hands, then put them into the military where we need more troops.

83 K?

That's a huge figure...

I was thinking about "correctional facilites" for a while... we're a civilized society and the institution of "prison" reeks of medieval brutality...

They could be useful to the society as colonists (on Mars, for example) or in some other way...

Keeping them in prison is a waste of their lives and our money...

[capricorn]

We should get rid of prisons next.

You're putting us on, right? Close all prisons? No, I think you're serious.

Correctional institution should not be something that indoctrinates you even further into the criminal way of life,

It's not the institution that conducts the indoctrination. The indoctrinators are hard core criminals who prey on inmates incarcerated beside them for lesser crimes. Maybe prisons should be structured to segregate inmates according to the type of crime and the severity of the violence used in crimes. I don't know, maybe that's already being done.

it should be something that teaches you the senses of guilt, compassion and gives you social skills necessary to live abiding the law in a normal society.

Those are the values that the vast majority of parents instill in their children. Those children are not likely to end up in prisons. Our education system could and should gear their methods of preparing students to operate in a normal society, and that includes obeying the law.

First and foremost, prison is about making people accountable for their crimes and protecting society. I agree with the concept of rehabilitation for those who are identified as rescuable. Those are the inmates that can benefit from any programs offered within the walls of the institution. Yet, there will always be a small percentage of the population that is just incorrigible and should not be let loose on society.

[Who's Doing What?]

Build Prisons or pay for welfare?

Bring back the death penalty and expand what are considered capital offences.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Build Prisons or pay for welfare?

Bring back the death penalty and expand what are considered capital offences.

How about slavery, witch burning (Condy comes to mind ) and blood rites?

Should we bring those back too?

[M.Dancer]

How about slavery, witch burning (Condy comes to mind ) and blood rites?

Should we bring those back too?

Witch burning. We have to look to alternate fuel sources in the future.

[Argus]

You make the arrogant assumption that others are out to rip off the system, but not you.

Prove it!!

Hire the people on welfare.

Who says I'm not out to rip off the system? Make welfare generous enough and easy enough to get on and I'd probably be tempted too. That's the point I'm trying to make. I used to work for little better than minimum wage, on a midnight shift. If welfare had been really generous I might have decided to tell my boss to go screw himself and just go on welfare. Many others are a lot worse than me. That's just basic human nature.

[Argus]

The benefit of making life comfortable for those on welfare is that you don't have to be afraid to walk down a dark alley in a poorer neighborhood.

I don't walk down dark alleys in poorer neighborhoods. So that really isn't a problem.

[M.Dancer]

I don't walk down dark alleys in poorer neighborhoods. So that really isn't a problem.

Even better, light the alleys or brick them up.

[Argus]

Because what they get paid today is half of what they need. If someone needs $500 to pay for a room (not an apartment) and you give him $250 - does that really help? If you mean to assist - do it in a way that's meaningful, not a half-ass way...

The less assistance you get the more inviting that choice becomes...

But it doesn't stop with the welfare recipients. Once we give them more we should also raise the minimum wage to make it worthwile for them to even look for a job. And then, of course, increase all the other wages...

Uh huh. It's all so simple, except that if you meet all their needs why should they work?

You want to increase everyone's wages? That will just increase inflation, so you'll have more money but everything will cost more.