The Liberal Green Shift

[Argus]

Here's my idea for a TORY TVcommercial:

Announcer. "We're talking to people about the Liberal Green Shift program.

Cut to DINK couple in expensive downtown Toronto apartment.

"Oh it will save us lots of money. Our condo has the latest in energy conservation materials"

Pan across luxuriously furnished apartment.

Announcer. "Those windows look awfully good at keeping the winter out"

DINK man "Oh yes, they cost a fortune too. They're the MX2000, imported all the way from Norway. They really conserve the heat.

Cut to homey bungalow north of Toronto and senior couple.

Announcer: "And do you have the latest in energy conservating windows, Mrs. Smith?"

Homeowner looking upset "Those cost ten or twenty thousand dollars! We can't afford to redo our old house!"

Announcer: "So the Green Shift will actually cost you a lot in increased heating and energy costs."

Sad senior homeowner: "I"m afraid so."

Announcer, sounding jobial. "Well I'm sure it will make you feel good to know the money is going to a good cause."

Cut to smug, smiling DINK couple in their luxurious condo.

[jdobbin]

Actually, if he makes $50k or more it will cost him $1000 just to start, with the removal of the employment tax credit. On top of that, Ontario Hydro has already said it will increase electricity costs by at least 20%. On top of that, of course, already sky-high fuel costs for heating oil and natural gas will rise as the tax is applied to them. And industry, faced with higher electricity, heating and transport costs (the tax will apply to diesel fuel used by trucks, will have to raise the price of goods, as well.

He has gone over his numbers again and again and keeps coming up with $200.

The Tory cap and trade plan will have no fixed cost on what he or you will pay.

Edited September 4, 2008 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

And therein lies the problem. The Liberals have openly rolled their Poverty Agenda into their Green Shift Plan......and that's likely just the tip of the iceberg. Don't forget the promise that Dion made - to reduce poverty by 30% over the next 5 years and overall child poverty by 50% - the 30/50 plan - introduced with much media fanfare. Liberals and their media friends have gone to great lengths to tout Mr. Dion as a man of great integrity. So where will he find the money? - just like the Europeans - a shell game with environment taxes.

Some of that money is already within the tax Dion has outlined. And has been mentioned this week, a lot of the rest of the plan will entail working with the provinces using present resources to do a better job.

[Ontario Loyalist]

Cut to smug, smiling DINK couple in their luxurious condo.

Can you explain what a "DINK" is?

[Moonbox]

Can you explain what a "DINK" is?

Dual Income with No Kids.

[eyeball]

I may be speaking for people that don't want to be spoken for, but I don't think the average CPC voter is going to start crying about broken promises if the government doesn't implement some sort of carbon tax.

I believe you do speak for the majority of CPC voters. The sense I get from people I know who are most likely to vote Conservative know full well that Harper needs to pretend he cares to get elected. It's obvious why Canada usually get the governments they deserve.

I've always imagined this corruption of values and principles was mostly trickling down from on high but now it appears it's also bubbling up from the grassroots like a water-logged septic field. Its pretty depressing really.

[eyeball]

It's just more Liberal lies.

I thought you guys brought in new accountability legislation that was supposed to do something about the ability of political oparties to lie.

What a bunch of liars.

[eyeball]

Here's my idea for a TORY TVcommercial:

Here's mine.

We truely want to be honest with Canadians and so we will be dropping the pretence that we think humans are causing anywhere near the problems in the environment the other parties are claiming. We will not be putting forward any sort of carbon plan because we think these plans are nothing more than socialist attempts to redistribute weath.

[Argus]

He has gone over his numbers again and again and keeps coming up with $200.

The Tory cap and trade plan will have no fixed cost on what he or you will pay.

Perhaps he wasn't aware that Dion was cancelling the employment tax credit.

Are you suggesting the Liberals have a fixed cost on what I will pay? Does that include not increasing my electricity costs?

[jdobbin]

Perhaps he wasn't aware that Dion was cancelling the employment tax credit.

Last time I saw, he had added everything up since that was included in the plan.

Are you suggesting the Liberals have a fixed cost on what I will pay? Does that include not increasing my electricity costs?

The fixed cost in on the carbon tax. I have no idea what your individual circumstances will be.

With a cap and trade, the costs are expected to be even more. There will be no fixed price.

[blueblood]

Here's mine.

We truely want to be honest with Canadians and so we will be dropping the pretence that we think humans are causing anywhere near the problems in the environment the other parties are claiming. We will not be putting forward any sort of carbon plan because we think these plans are nothing more than socialist attempts to redistribute weath.

I'm sold on that. Works good down south, they have no plan and are ahead of us in reducing air pollution.

[betsy]

Speaking of the "Green Shift," looks like the Liberals are in trouble for using this name. Somebody filed a lawsuit against the Liberals and filed an injunction to stop them from using the "Green Shift." So it's gonna be tough what with all the changes they're doing with their green plan - I wonder if that's what they mean by "the winds of change?" - ...and now they have to scramble and come up with a new name. "Make Shift Plan" would be good.

Anyway, did I hear Dion right? GREEN FARM FARMS? Who ever came up with that name?

[DanInOttawa]

THE GREEN SHIFT

The thing people don't understand is that the green shift will cut taxes and create jobs. Not only that, it will create GOOD, DECENT and PROGRESSIVE jobs. It's a fantastic and innovative piece of politics. Doing Canada proud and putting us ahead of the rest of the world.

The Liberals of useing the "Green Shift" name that belongs to another Canadian company.

A Toronto-based environmental consulting firm has asked the courts to keep the Liberal Party of Canada and its candidates from using the name Green Shift for its policy platform.

Jennifer Wright, owner of Green Shift Inc., first accused the Liberals of infringing on the trademarked name of her company in July, but speculation of an imminent federal election moved her to get the case in front a judge as soon as possible.

- CTV.ca News Staff

http://speakyourmindeh.ca/viewtopic.php?f=...20&p=54#p54

Even when they makes changes to the shift that target farmers to so called "help" the farmers the Liberals get it wrong.

outewest

http://speakyourmindeh.ca/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15

As a rural farmer, no matter how much tweaking that Dion does, it will still take money out of my pocket. A Carbon tax is still a "tax". Enough of the taxes. :evil:

- just a farmer

The SHIFTY GREEN PLAN is one plan I, as a farmer do not want to pay for. What good is an income tax cut when I,m not making money ?? The sad thing about farming is you buy retail and sell wholesale. Who knows what Dion is saying, I need an interpreter.

Dion having a FRENCH CITIZENSHIP does not sit well with me. What country is he loyal to anyway ??

- CTV.ca

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/s ... TopStories

Bottom line is that not all of Canada feels that Green Shift is good for Canada. In-fact I think most of Canada feels it is the wrong way to go. I do agree with you on one thing, the Green Shift will put us out in front of the rest of the world... at the un-employment line.

[Wilber]

We will not be putting forward any sort of carbon plan because we think these plans are nothing more than socialist attempts to redistribute weath.

A tax is not a plan, it is just a tax and all taxes redistribute wealth. As this new tax revenue is not slated to be used for actually reducing carbon emissions, how can you call it a "carbon plan"?

[eyeball]

I was refering to Harper's plan to address something he doesn't believe in. If he and his supporters don't believe that anthropogenic CO2 emissions cause global warming then why does Harper propose to address these emissions?

The majority of people most likely to vote for him don't seem to believe in AGW either so who is he trying to fool, the people who do? Isn't this something that his supporters should be ashamed of, that their leader has to stoop to political correctness and duplicity to get elected?

[WIP]

I was refering to Harper's plan to address something he doesn't believe in. If he and his supporters don't believe that anthropogenic CO2 emissions cause global warming then why does Harper propose to address these emissions?

The majority of people most likely to vote for him don't seem to believe in AGW either so who is he trying to fool, the people who do? Isn't this something that his supporters should be ashamed of, that their leader has to stoop to political correctness and duplicity to get elected?

I think they already know that a Conservative plan will be a half-hearted, cosmetic attempt to pretend to be doing something about the problem, and not a real climate control strategy that will have an impact on economic policies like tar sands developments.

[WIP]

Perhaps you only read the headlines. Most Liberals do. If you delve a little deeper you'll find that this is unabashedly an income redistribution program with only a peripheral aim of reducing carbon emissions.

For example, removing the employment tax credit for workers who earn $50,000 or more a year. Can you tell me exactly how that relates to carbon emissions or pollution? That's a $1000 credit removed from every middle class working man and woman - on top of the fact we're going to be paying higher energy prices, and more for goods and services. And that $1000? Where's it going to? To CO2 emission reduction programs? Nope. It's going to be flat out given to poorer people, many of whom don't work. Good for them, I suppose, but do you actually expect me to feel this is related to pollution and the environment because the Liberals call it a "Green" shift? It's just more Liberal lies.

Okay, if you don't like carbon tax strategies, does that mean you support the cap and trade schemes? Are there any strategies to reduce CO2, methane emission that won't have some economic hardships?

[bush_cheney2004]

I think they already know that a Conservative plan will be a half-hearted, cosmetic attempt to pretend to be doing something about the problem, and not a real climate control strategy that will have an impact on economic policies like tar sands developments.

Well, that would still be a lot better than the Liberals did in the past after ratifying Kyoto.

[jdobbin]

A tax is not a plan, it is just a tax and all taxes redistribute wealth. As this new tax revenue is not slated to be used for actually reducing carbon emissions, how can you call it a "carbon plan"?

It is a a reduction plan as much as your want to deny it.

[Wilber]

I was refering to Harper's plan to address something he doesn't believe in. If he and his supporters don't believe that anthropogenic CO2 emissions cause global warming then why does Harper propose to address these emissions?

I was referring to a plan which proposes to apply a tax and use the revenues collected for entitlements that have nothing to do with the "problem" the tax claims to address.

[blueblood]

Well, that would still be a lot better than the Liberals did in the past after ratifying Kyoto.

The American strategy was better, gas went to four bucks a gallon and now three quarter trucks are a dime a dozen.

[Riverwind]

Are there any strategies to reduce CO2, methane emission that won't have some economic hardships?

The technology to eliminate or even significantly reduce emissions does not exist nor is it likely to appear any time soon. This means any attempt to reduce emissions will fail unless it limits itself to concrete technically industry specific targets.

[Wilber]

It is a a reduction plan as much as your want to deny it.

So let's say the tax works and Canadians drastically reduce their carbon consumption. How will you continue to finance your poverty reduction schemes and other entitlements with continually declining revenues from the carbon tax? The way I see it, your only options will be to increase the tax even though emissions are declining, or tax something else. That is the big flaw in your scheme, the stated reason for the tax and the use of most of the revenue generated are not related which means trouble down the road. If the economy takes a hit because of the tax and revenues decline even further, that will mean even bigger trouble.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Wilber

[jdobbin]

So let's say the tax works and Canadians drastically reduce their carbon consumption. How will you continue to finance your poverty reduction schemes and other entitlements with continually declining revenues from the carbon tax? The way I see it, your only options will be to increase the tax even though emissions are declining, or tax something else. That is the big flaw in your scheme, the stated reason for the tax and the use of most of the revenue generated are not related which means trouble down the road. If the economy takes a hit because of the tax and revenues decline even further, that will mean even bigger trouble.

Or cut spending elsewhere. Now, that wasn't so hard.

[Wilber]

Or cut spending elsewhere. Now, that wasn't so hard.

Ya right, like where? That could be a tougher sell than the Green Shift. "I'm entitled to my entitlements" remember.

It's nice of you to admit however that reducing emissions is not the primary purpose of this tax.