bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 Again, I'm at a loss... It is understandable that the knowledge of Eurasian history is lesser on this side of Atlantic (and Pacific).But why the hate? Because Russia (not Russians)...sucks. Poland is not very impressed with Russia saving Europe. What is great Russian dream? Going to North America! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
moderateamericain Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 Of course.And US is the force of Good and Freedom and Democracy.... oh boy... tell Serbia and Iraq about murdering tyrants... The sure could tell us all about it, especially since it was the US and NATO that stopped the genocide in Serbia and Stopped the mass killings of Sadam Insane. Go talk to some ethnic Iraqi about there buddy Saddam. I think you will here a different tune from them. Quote
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 17, 2008 Author Report Posted August 17, 2008 The sure could tell us all about it, especially since it was the US and NATO that stopped the genocide in Serbia and Stopped the mass killings of Sadam Insane. Go talk to some ethnic Iraqi about there buddy Saddam. I think you will here a different tune from them. I would agree with you, honestly. Nobody likes genocide or tyrants. I would agree if US would go in just to help the people of these countries have a choice (life or death, slavery or freedom). But that was not the primary reason for bombings and invasion. In Serbia it was political and military control, in Afganistan, Iraq and Georgia it is OIL. I do accept that a side-effect of US invading other countries MAY BE "Democracy". But you can be certain that the US "Democracy" recipie will NEVER work in Afganistan or Iraq as these are Muslim countries with a completely different mentality. What did US do for Iraq? Create a dictator, remove a dictator, create endless blodshed. If US would TRULY be interested in human rights abroad, they would have intervened in Rwanda to stop the butchering. They would have maybe introduced military into Somalia to help create some form of government. I'm sure there's tons of little countries like Haiti that would have loved to JOIN US. But there's no oil, no strategic advantage to these places... Quote You are what you do.
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 If US would TRULY be interested in human rights abroad, they would have intervened in Rwanda to stop the butchering. They would have maybe introduced military into Somalia to help create some form of government. I'm sure there's tons of little countries like Haiti that would have loved to JOIN US. But there's no oil, no strategic advantage to these places... Yes..like great Russian adventures that yield nothing...no wealth...no human rights....no democracy. Easy to choose in this case. Millions have voted with their feet for the US or Canada. If you insist that the US must lead the way because you can't/won't (i.e. Rwanda), then you will dance to American music. Lead, follow, or get out of the way. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 17, 2008 Author Report Posted August 17, 2008 Yes..like great Russian adventures that yield nothing...no wealth...no human rights....no democracy. Easy to choose in this case. Millions have voted with their feet for the US or Canada.If you insist that the US must lead the way because you can't/won't (i.e. Rwanda), then you will dance to American music. Lead, follow, or get out of the way. If you talk about post-Soviet Russia, then you are almost right - it didn't have a chance to do anything major before Georgia. If you're talking about Soviet Union than you are wrong. USSR did a hell of a lot (but for sure not as much as US) for the republics within it and for some countries outside. In the beginning of USSR history the middle-eastern republics were in not much better shape than Afganistan is now. Russia built countries out of them - with complete infrastructure (that the Indian "Democracy" doesn't have and will not have for a while). And, if US wouldn't have interfered, would have built a "Socialist" country out of Afganistan, which would be light-years ahead of Taliban rule that US led it to. Quote You are what you do.
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 If you talk about post-Soviet Russia, then you are almost right - it didn't have a chance to do anything major before Georgia. Right...the Chechens may disagree. Russia is still collapsing under the weight of Soviet era junk. If you're talking about Soviet Union than you are wrong. USSR did a hell of a lot (but for sure not as much as US) for the republics within it and for some countries outside. In the beginning of USSR history the middle-eastern republics were in not much better shape than Afganistan is now. Russia built countries out of them - with complete infrastructure (that the Indian "Democracy" doesn't have and will not have for a while). I have already acknowledged the relatively better performance of the FSU ("peasants to space probes"). I like the part where they drained most of the Aral Sea. And, if US wouldn't have interfered, would have built a "Socialist" country out of Afganistan, which would be light-years ahead of Taliban rule that US led it to. But that was America's job...to "intefere".....wherever and whenever possible. See, we hate commies for sure, but we really hate Russian commies! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 17, 2008 Author Report Posted August 17, 2008 Right...the Chechens may disagree. Russia is still collapsing under the weight of Soviet era junk.I have already acknowledged the relatively better performance of the FSU ("peasants to space probes"). I like the part where they drained most of the Aral Sea. But that was America's job...to "intefere".....wherever and whenever possible. See, we hate commies for sure, but we really hate Russian commies! BTW, I just watched "Hang'em High" with Clint Eastwood and I think I understand better the roots of Bush's foreign policy Quote You are what you do.
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 (edited) BTW, I just watched "Hang'em High" with Clint Eastwood and I think I understand better the roots of Bush's foreign policy I cannot recall any great Russian movies....but I will try. Clint Eastwood stole Russian "Foxfire" for Hollywood, just like Belenko stole MiG-25 to Japan. Another Russian who did not like Russia.....oh well. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=680_1179843094 Edited August 17, 2008 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 17, 2008 Author Report Posted August 17, 2008 I cannot recall any great Russian movies....but I will try. Well, at least you're open to the idea that there may be movies that are not made in Hollywood ( ), which is already not that bad Clint Eastwood stole Russian "Foxfire" for Hollywood, just like Belenko stole MiG-25 to Japan. Another Russian who did not like Russia.....oh well. Rosenbergs, who were not even Russian, stole the atomic bomb for USSR (and were then executed in a "Democratic" way by US). I wonder why they've done that? Were they not blessed by the American Freedom? What do you think? KGB was by far the best intelligence agency until Mossad came along. Quote You are what you do.
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 (edited) Well, at least you're open to the idea that there may be movies that are not made in Hollywood ( ), which is already not that bad Wait....I have one...."Doctor Zhivago" film from 1965 from Russian author....wait...that movie was made by the damn Americans too! (Of course, the book was banned in Russia.) Rosenbergs, who were not even Russian, stole the atomic bomb for USSR (and were then executed in a "Democratic" way by US).I wonder why they've done that? Were they not blessed by the American Freedom? What do you think? ...but they never moved to Russia! Because Russia SUCKS! KGB was by far the best intelligence agency until Mossad came along. Yes...very intelligent way to run Russia even today. Edited August 18, 2008 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
M.Dancer Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 Of course.And US is the force of Good and Freedom and Democracy.... oh boy... tell Serbia and Iraq about murdering tyrants... I think they will have enough to say about Milosovic and Hussien Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
August1991 Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 KGB was by far the best intelligence agency until Mossad came along.How can you say nonsense like that?The KGB failed to foresee uprisings in Hungary, Czechoslovakia or Poland and ultimately these were quelled by Russian tanks and dramatic regime change by force. The NKVD failed to foresee Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union. These are huge intelligence failures. The KGB was as competent as the rest of the Soviet apparatus. IOW, it wasn't. As is often the Russian way, any success came about by the use of brute force. Quote
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 18, 2008 Author Report Posted August 18, 2008 I think they will have enough to say about Milosovic and Hussien Just translate and post the question on a Serbian or Iraqi discussion forum (I'm not sure if Iraq has internet or forums) and see what people will tell you. Quote You are what you do.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 18, 2008 Author Report Posted August 18, 2008 How can you say nonsense like that?The KGB failed to foresee uprisings in Hungary, Czechoslovakia or Poland and ultimately these were quelled by Russian tanks and dramatic regime change by force. The NKVD failed to foresee Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union. These are huge intelligence failures. The KGB was as competent as the rest of the Soviet apparatus. IOW, it wasn't. As is often the Russian way, any success came about by the use of brute force. Just because it is radically different from what you've been brought up with doesn't make it nonsense. It is not my opinion, I read some books written by former spies - but I cannot point you to a website to prove my point, so let's each keep our view on things. As to the failures - they were not clairvoyants, just very motivated spies. And if you want the best at brute force - Mossad is #1 here too Quote You are what you do.
Argus Posted August 18, 2008 Report Posted August 18, 2008 Of course.And US is the force of Good and Freedom and Democracy.... oh boy... tell Serbia and Iraq about murdering tyrants... Serbia and Iraq were run by murdering tyrants. You see a theme there? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
jbg Posted August 18, 2008 Report Posted August 18, 2008 It appears that today NATO is an instrument of USA's imperialistic ambitions in the world.At this point the members of NATO should stop and ponder: do they want to be dragged into the wars and confrontations that US is creating in all parts of the world? "Russia must be punished", they say. It is easy and convenient for US, being on another continent and having no important economic relations with Russia. For European countries it is quite the opposite. They have good economic relations with Russia and many of them rely on Russian gas and oil. It would make a lot more sense for Europe to have a Pan-European military alliance that would not include USA. I find your arguments to be morally abhorent. As you well know, Russia is testing to see where the world will do coordinated whining (I suspect Georgia) and where it's "no go" (I suspect the Baltic states), wtih Ukraine somewhere between. The US, Britain, Australia, and Canada have stood proudly for liberation of people from oppression, grinding poverty and war. The contributions of these countries include the telephone, electricity, food growth techniques that have freed much of the world from starvation and want. What has Russia contributed? What has the Islamosphere contributed? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 18, 2008 Author Report Posted August 18, 2008 I find your arguments to be morally abhorent. As you well know, Russia is testing to see where the world will do coordinated whining (I suspect Georgia) and where it's "no go" (I suspect the Baltic states), wtih Ukraine somewhere between. The US, Britain, Australia, and Canada have stood proudly for liberation of people from oppression, grinding poverty and war. The contributions of these countries include the telephone, electricity, food growth techniques that have freed much of the world from starvation and want. What has Russia contributed? What has the Islamosphere contributed? I don't hate US and there are many good things and bad things that they've done. Soviet Union, whether you know it or don't, has done a lot of the same. I'm not going to talk about Islam as this is way outside the topic. Quote You are what you do.
jbg Posted August 18, 2008 Report Posted August 18, 2008 I don't hate US and there are many good things and bad things that they've done.Soviet Union, whether you know it or don't, has done a lot of the same. What are those accomplishments? I'm not going to talk about Islam as this is way outside the topic.Not really, since much of the world went from an embrace of so-called "Marxism", to "radical Islam", barely skippng a beat. They both have in common an illiberal, faxcistic practica and mentality, and hatred for free socieities in the West. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Army Guy Posted August 18, 2008 Report Posted August 18, 2008 See, there's a problem with North Americans understanding what it is to be at war as they have not fought a real enemy on their land... Not a big fan of American history are you ?....I guess russians should learn to fight the good fight at the start of the wars, and they would'nt have to fight them on thier own land.... Russia prevented Genghis Khan from rolling over Europe. The mongols had captured alot of Russia and kept it for how many years.... Russia defeated the Ottoman Empire in Europe. Is that the same war that Canadian's had to assist mother russia in Russia during the revolution... USSR defeated the Faschist Germany in Europe Sure, i guess history is written differently in Russia.... . And, believe it or not, fought Japanese in Mongolia and China. Guess you guys won that one too, tell me who dropped the H bomb in Russian history books... Soviet Union, whether you know it or don't, has done a lot of the same.What are those accomplishments ? Hey they gave us Stalin, the worlds biggist mass murderer. and a few others Ivan the terriable, etc etc thier whole history has been filled with bloodshed... Hey lets not forget about the space race, finsihed second place, but you need two to race right... Vodka lets not forget about that.... Hey there was those famous eggs , made of jewels and shit... The cold war hey lets not forget about that small contribution... Hey there was Lenin....and marxism... anything else... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
M.Dancer Posted August 18, 2008 Report Posted August 18, 2008 Guess you guys won that one too, tell me who dropped the H bomb in Russian history books...Hey they gave us Stalin, the worlds biggist mass murderer. And, believe it or not, fought Japanese in Mongolia and China. Russia declared war on Japan days before Japan surrendered then seized Jap[anese terrirtory which today they still haven't returned. They probably waited because of the humiliating defeat handed to the russian by the Japanese 45 years earlier. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 18, 2008 Author Report Posted August 18, 2008 (edited) I have to admit that for an army guy your argument is quite eloquent: Not a big fan of American history are you ?....I guess russians should learn to fight the good fight at the start of the wars, and they would'nt have to fight them on thier own land.... As far as I know US was never invaded by any other country. The mongols had captured alot of Russia and kept it for how many years.... 300, to be exact. Russia stretched their forces thin and they could not go on invading Europe Is that the same war that Canadian's had to assist mother russia in Russia during the revolution... Russia and Austria defeated the Ottoman Empire (I hope you're familiar with that term). In case your history classes skipped this "detail", check any source on the web, for example Encyclopedia Britannica: "In consequence the Ottoman Empire fought intermittent wars with its European enemies during the period between the second siege of Vienna (1683) and the Treaty of Jassy (1792). From 1683 to 1699 it fought the armies of the Holy League in a disastrous war that culminated in the Treaty of Carlowitz (1699). In 1710–11 it fought Russia again, and at the Treaty of the Pruth (1711) it regained some territories previously lost. The war of 1714–18 with Venice and Austria was concluded by the Treaty of Passarowitz (1718); and three wars with Russia and Austria, in 1736–39, 1768–74, and 1787–92, culminated in the treaties of Belgrade (1739), Küçük Kaynarca (1774), and Jassy (1792). As a result of these wars, the Ottomans lost Hungary, the Banat of Temesvár region, Transylvania, and Bukovina, establishing their European boundary on the Danube, where it had been early in the 16th century. By 1812 the Ottomans had lost all their possessions on the northern coast of the Black Sea, from the Romanian principalities to the Caucasus, including Bessarabia, southern Ukraine, and the Crimea (the soldiers of which had provided the strongest element in the Ottoman army during the 17th century). In addition, the Ottomans were compelled to allow the Russians and Austrians to intervene legally on behalf of the sultan’s Christian subjects, increasing European influence in internal Ottoman affairs." Sure, i guess history is written differently in Russia.... Well, believe it or not, history books are written in a different way by each country. I'm sure yours said "US and allies won WW2" Ukraine, for example, started re-writing its history books right after the "Orange Revolution". Guess you guys won that one too, tell me who dropped the H bomb in Russian history books... Did they teach you it was a Hydrogen bomb? Oh my... It began here (Wikipedia): "The Battle of Khalkhyn Gol (Russian: бои на реке Халхин-Гол; Mongolian: Халхын голын байлдаан; Japanese: ノモンハン事件 Nomonhan jiken--i.e. Nomonhan Incident) was the decisive engagement of the undeclared Soviet-Japanese Border War, or Japanese-Soviet War, fought between the Soviet Union and the Empire of Japan in 1939. " Hey they gave us Stalin, the worlds biggist mass murderer. US gave us the biggest weapon of mass destruction (did they ever find those in Iraq? ) and a few others Ivan the terriable, etc etc thier whole history has been filled with bloodshed... As is the history of any country formed more than 200 some years ago. Hey lets not forget about the space race, finsihed second place, but you need two to race right... LOL After so many years you still can't accept the loss... Guess what - China is number 3 but I bet it will go way beyond just putting their flag on the Moon - they'll start mining it right away Vodka lets not forget about that....Hey there was those famous eggs , made of jewels and shit... I have to admit that your lack of knowledge of another country's culture can be used as an excuse here. It is only understandable, after all... The cold war hey lets not forget about that small contribution... Cold war takes 2 to happen, just like an arms race Hey there was Lenin....and marxism... Wikipedia: Karl Heinrich Marx (May 5, 1818, Trier, then part of Prussian Rhineland – March 14, 1883, London) was an immensely influential German philosopher, political economist, and socialist revolutionary. The intent of this thread was not to bash US or Russia. Both countries and peoples deserve respect. Their governmens, however, are a different story... Edited August 18, 2008 by PoliticalCitizen Quote You are what you do.
M.Dancer Posted August 18, 2008 Report Posted August 18, 2008 I have to admit that for an army guy your argument is quite eloquent:As far as I know US was never invaded by any other country. At least twice. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 18, 2008 Author Report Posted August 18, 2008 At least twice. I admit I may be lacking in that area. Please, share. Quote You are what you do.
M.Dancer Posted August 18, 2008 Report Posted August 18, 2008 I admit I may be lacking in that area. Please, share. 1812 and 1942 Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 18, 2008 Author Report Posted August 18, 2008 1812 and 1942 1812 - isn't that when US invaded Canada? 1942 - US was attacked, not invaded. It is hard to appreciate the price of peace when you have not really experienced war. Quote You are what you do.
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