Open warfare in South Ossetia

[Argus]

Here's another fine example of our brazen, unapologetic hypocrisy:

BBC: Afghan civilians killed in US operation

More civilians perished in just one (out of countless) NATO operation than in the whole incident in Ossetia, on Georgia's side.

And? Where's the indignation of the free world? Free nations standing in one voice to condemn and demand? Free democratic media sending hundreds of reporters to find out the truth? Think of it, did you even hear about it?

This pretty much summarizes the whole affair (on the NATO, and specifically, Canada's, side) as a big, steaming, and stinking pile of hypocritical bs.

No, it summarizes your habit of making dumb statements without any evidence to back them up.

You don't know how many died in Georgia for one thing. For another you blithely skim over the difference between an accident and a deliberate action.

[Isomorphic]

What an in-depth analysis! So, this is how the war started - one night Georgian forces entered Tskhinvali (Georgian territory by the way), nothing else happened before, nobody expected anything but Ossetians were ready to "fire at Georgian schools and houses in the city" and later 70,000 Ossetians (and probably 10,000 more North Ossetians and Russians, eh? wink.gif ) defeated 5,000,000 Georgians.

Note, at the top of the page it says, Please help improve this article or section by expanding it.

By the way, the fact that there was a war does not mean that Ossetians and Georgians were not friends before Russia did everything to provoke fighting. Not only there are many examples of war between different ethnic groups that used to be friends, but it is also very easy to find cases of civil wars between representatives of the same ethnic groups - for example Russians.

Since you seem more familiar with this conflict that I, can you show me an example of how the Russians provoked ethnic divisions between Ossetians and Georgians before the 91-92 war?

[PoliticalCitizen]

PoliticalCitizen

Could you please answer why "South Ossetia" has a right to "self-determination" and Chechnya does not?

As I already said, Chechnya got it but f*cked it up by starting military operations in Dagestan.

By the way are you still looking for a proof that Georgian President Gamsakhurdia said "Georgians for Georgia"? I know it is not a simple task as proof does not exist. Meanwhile why don't we watch an election campaign video of Ragozin, Russian Ambassador to NATO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Rogozin

Why should I be looking for a proof? Most sources I read mention that either he said it or it was used in his campaign. Either way, the direction is obvious.

What does Rogozing have to do with anything? Why did you have to bring him in? He doesn't decide anything (yet, anyway).

(I am sorry I don't have an English version of the movie. I will try to get it though. You can hear three languages at the same time and even though English is the most difficult of the three to hear you can still get an idea. DON'T MISS IT! by the way the whole movie is very interesting and, of course, banned in Russia.)

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=2dPN3heRTvo&...9C1&index=0

Everything is symbolic in this video: the music, the way the people look, even watermelon! You don't need to be genius to guess that those bums are most likely Caucasians (from Caucasian region). Ragozin offers to clean Moscow of trash. Do you know what he means?

What kind of BS is that video? Did Saakashvili's lakeys make it themselves or did the American friends help you? I've heard Georgian on top of English on top of Russian... Is that what your president uses to teach the new generation of Georgians about their neighbors? No wonder you hate Russians... Jeez...

Georgians have never been hostile towards non-Georgian friends - ask Jews, who lived in Georgia for 26 centuries, if they have ever been discriminated. You made Ukrainians speak only Russian in Ukraine. Abkhazs, Armenians, Azeris, Ossetians... had their schools, theaters, universities, churches and mosques in Georgia.

This is a huge sculpture in Tbilisi:

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/5640/qdgq5.jpg

Our message is: if you come as a friend, we will meet you with wine but if you come as an enemy we will defend ourselves with a sword.

A Georgian classic story "Host-Guest" is about a men who dies defending his guest - a man who had killed the host's brother. The only reason the host defends him is that he is a guest in his house. This is in high school curriculum. Another classical poem we study in schools is about a battle between a tiger and a young hunter (loose translation) where both of them die. The mother of a young man gets devastated by the news but she says: it is very difficult for a tiger's mother too, she also lost her son. I need to go to her to console her.

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/1050/vefxi2tk8.jpg

So while I am not arguing that we are angels and saints, at least we are taught to love people, be noble and respect even enemies. This is part of Georgian propaganda, not racism, nationalism and hatred.

Oh, I know how you wished there were no sculptures, no ancient writings, nothing that would prove that Georgians were there for a very long time, that Abkhazia and Samachablo ("South Ossetia") were part of Georgia, that Georgians are not occupants. You still managed to rewrite Georgian history and convince your brainwashed population that Georgians are your #1 enemy, the worst people in the world. And by the way, even if we were the ugliest, dumbest, laziest people in the world it is still irrelevant. You still have as much right to occupy our land as I have to kill an obnoxious neighbour who everyone hates.

Russians are responsible for what's going on in Georgia now. Ossetians were fully integrated in Georgian society, there were tons of mixed families. It was not easy to make them an enemy but Russia managed that. They try to make sure we will not be friends again. Here are some of the representatives of the "South Ossetian" government:

Customs Security Chief - Anayolij Baranov (Russian) - Former head of FSB Service of Moldova

Minister of Defense - Vasily Lunev (Russian) - Former Military Commissar from Perm (Russia)

Chief of Security Council - Anatoly Barankevich (Russian) - From Stavropol (Russia)

Prime Minister - Yuri Morozov (Russian) - From ??? (Not "South or North Ossetia")

No wonder there is no peace between Georgians and Ossetians. Georgians did not want Ossetians to leave the region. We wanted to forget, forgive and try to heal wound. We still want that. It will not be easy and it will take time, but it is doable. Georgia was occupied by Turkey many times but we are friends now. We want to be friends with Ossetians. "South Ossetian Government" surely does not want that.

Now lets move away from sentiments and get back to reality.

Georgians have never been hostile towards non-Georgian friends... until the Soviet Union fell apart. All of a sudden ethnic groups living brotherly side-by-side became rabid dogs lunging for each other's throats... all to the amusement of uncle Sam (whose ass Georgian and Ukrainian governments tried to kiss as deep as anatomically possible).

I appreciate the little story from your country's folklore and I honestly believe that your people are still the same as in that story - they just have been temporarily blinded by hatred, thanks to your micro-Hitler Saakashvili. I have to compliment him on his eloquence and gift to reach for the hearts of the masses - but he poisoned your people's minds, misled and made them commit a crime agains humanity.

Georgia was never hated by Russia, just treated as the other little sister republics.

Oh yes, statues are nice... There's lots of them everywhere... But you're not in Georgia now, are you, Kaisa?

You're wondering how come so many Ossetians have Russian names? Maybe that's because Ossetia did not do an ethnic cleansing towards Russians. As you may have noticed, Russia did not expel Basilashvili or many other prominent Russian citizens of Georgian origin.

Hell, the president of Moldova (home of the only elected Communist government in the world) is Voronin. Definitely not a Romanian name. You know why? We, Moldovans, do not hate Russians. Moldova is actually considering re-introducing Russian as a second state language.

Did you know that Russia conducted full scale military training less than a month before fighting started?

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080705/113174665.html

I'm sure Russian army trained for more than a few months, maybe a couple of years, just for this operation. Watching your army grow, train and aquire new weapons Russians knew what your little Hitler is preparing for. That's why they trained. And we should all be glad they did - had they not your army would have slaughtered the entire South Ossetian population.

Did you know that Russians launched Cyberwar two weeks before the fighting started?

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-ed-...0,5922456.story

L.A. Times?

Naturally, they are the experts on the situation in Caucasus (wait, aren't all white people from there? We're "Caucasian", aren't we?)

Try Atlanta Times next - they should know more about Georgia

Did you know that Ossetians evacuated women and children just a day before the fighting started? I wonder why would they do that? Could it be because they knew they would do anything to start a war? I think you mentioned evacuation of Grozni...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7539282.stm

Why didn't you post the whole article, Kaisa?

Further down it sais:

Full-scale war

The separatists said three of their militiamen were killed by Georgian sniper fire and three civilians died when the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali was shelled on Friday night.

South Ossetian President Eduard Kokoity accused Georgia of "attempting to spark a full-scale war", and said he was ready to mobilise volunteer fighters if the situation deteriorated further.

And finally did you know that Russia reduced the number of casualties to only 133(!)? No 2000, not even 1500 but there are only 133 victims of "genocide". And even this number is under question mark. It's been more than a week after the end of fighting and they still have not presented evidence of a single civilian killed by georgian military until now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7572635.stm

BBC is full of BS. Ever since UK got involved with US in their "War on Terror" (they should really be declaring a war on stupidity), BBC's information stopped being informative and started reeking of bovine excrement.

The South Ossetian official number is 1492 civilians killed by Georgian military.

The Russian body count is 63 peacekeepers dead.

Edited August 25, 2008 by PoliticalCitizen

[myata]

Yes...mere sport. The Americans have decommissioned and scrapped for nuclear subs than China will ever build. They can't even take taiwan yet. Don't call us....we'll call you.

I like that confidence! But only for the record: how does it measure against the reality? I mean, the last time US military had met a real determined opponent? Other incidents when US military had to fight their match?

- Germany (Ardennes)

- Japan (nukes)

- Korea

- Vietnam

Following this line of thought, I'm not sure if NATO in Georgia (or anywhere else) is really the answer to all our worries and concerns. Just look at the NATO in Afghanistan; or (some of) the NATO in Iraq; NATO in Srebrentitsa. Etc.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Yes...mere sport. The Americans have decommissioned and scrapped for nuclear subs than China will ever build. They can't even take taiwan yet. Don't call us....we'll call you.

My friend,

Mother China can make both of us feel sorry, I'm afraid...

Taiwan? Don't think it will take to long before they go for it... Especially now that they won't have to be the first ones to tell US to f*ck off

Oh, and not to forget - they can afford human losses in the order of hundreds of millions

[bush_cheney2004]

I like that confidence! But only for the record: how does it measure against the reality? I mean, the last time US military had met a real determined opponent? Other incidents when US military had to fight their match?

- Germany (Ardennes)

- Japan (nukes)

- Korea

- Vietnam

I am not sure what your point is....but even in defeat the US and west has won. NATO has ballooned to 26 nations the last time I checked. The Soviet Union was a "real" determined opponent, and it was defeated in the late 1980's. It no longer exists. Today's "jihad" fails to compare in both scope and order of battle.

Following this line of thought, I'm not sure if NATO in Georgia (or anywhere else) is really the answer to all our worries and concerns. Just look at the NATO in Afghanistan; or (some of) the NATO in Iraq; NATO in Srebrentitsa. Etc.

You have answered your own question.....the fact that NATO has projected power to these and other areas gives evidence of member/mission success. It has become the defacto muscle and short circuit to United Nations impotency.

[PoliticalCitizen]

...the fact that NATO has projected power to these and other areas gives evidence of member/mission success. It has become the defacto muscle and short circuit to United Nations impotency.

So why don't they intervene in Georgia?

A "potency" problem?

[bush_cheney2004]

So why don't they intervene in Georgia?

A "potency" problem?

Certainly a potency problem...for Russia. The NATO barbarians are at the gates. Georgia is not a NATO member (yet).

[PoliticalCitizen]

Certainly a potency problem...for Russia. The NATO barbarians are at the gates. Georgia is not a NATO member (yet).

The real barbarians, my friend, now have the opportunity to hunt American meat in both Iraq and Afganistan... practice makes perfect

[bush_cheney2004]

The real barbarians, my friend, now have the opportunity to hunt American meat in both Iraq and Afganistan... practice makes perfect

There is no perfect....just good enough. The American hegemon circles the planet, while most of its inhabitants know more about Kobe Bryant than Vlad the Impaler.

[PoliticalCitizen]

There is no perfect....just good enough. The American hegemon circles the planet, while most of its inhabitants know more about Kobe Bryant than Vlad the Impaler.

Kobe Bryant?

Or Yao Ming?

Vlad the Impaler was Wallachian (ancient Romanian, not Russian) and will forever be remembered as Dracula

[bush_cheney2004]

Kobe Bryant?

Or Yao Ming?

Vlad the Impaler was Wallachian (ancient Romanian, not Russian) and will forever be remembered as Dracula

I know...we used Vlad in "Ghostbusters 2".....but you missed the joke vis-a-vis Putin. That's OK, we're still #1.

[Oleg Bach]

Do you really think this proves that I am wrong in blaming Russia in the conflict? And by the way, "South Ossetians" were not Russian citizens then, were they? Also, Russians were not peacekeepers. How come Russian military units were involved in the war?

Let's forget about the fact that I can edit this page and write whatever I want to right now and let me copy the beginning of the article otherwise tomorrow people might not know what I am commenting on:

"The 1991–1992 South Ossetian War was fought as part of the Georgian-Ossetian conflict from 1991 to 1992 between the Georgian government forces and ethnic Georgian militias on one side and South Ossetian secessionists and North Ossetian volunteers on the other, with sporadic involvement of the Russian military units. The war ended through a Russian-brokered ceasefire that established a joint peacekeeping force and left South Ossetia divided between the rivaling authorities.

On the night of 5 January 1991, Georgian forces entered Tskhinvali. The Ossetian militants responded by firing at Georgian schools and houses in the city, while Georgians attacked Ossetian villages."

What an in-depth analysis! So, this is how the war started - one night Georgian forces entered Tskhinvali (Georgian territory by the way), nothing else happened before, nobody expected anything but Ossetians were ready to "fire at Georgian schools and houses in the city" and later 70,000 Ossetians (and probably 10,000 more North Ossetians and Russians, eh? ) defeated 5,000,000 Georgians.

By the way, the fact that there was a war does not mean that Ossetians and Georgians were not friends before Russia did everything to provoke fighting. Not only there are many examples of war between different ethnic groups that used to be friends, but it is also very easy to find cases of civil wars between representatives of the same ethnic groups - for example Russians.

Remember Joe Stalin was a spawn of Georgia. He genocided millions of good slavonics in Russia and the Ukraine - I would say genetically speaking if there are a few hundred of Stalins blood relatives in Georgia - I just hope they were among the dead - revenge takes a while and Georgia diserves what it gets - it does not matter if it is 80 years later -- someone in Georgia created Stalin and the decendants of that mad creator are now facing payback time - so be it.

[myata]

I am not sure what your point is....but even in defeat the US and west has won. NATO has ballooned to 26 nations the last time I checked.

The point is that the NATO, and specifically, its "champions", should be worried lot more about the ideological foundations of the organization, than the arithmetics of the expansion. If numbers were any guarantee of success and continuous progress, we would be living in 2,000 years Rome.

The West has been given a brief historical window in which it could share its ideas with the world in a free non confrontational environment. The ideas materialized as Afghanistan, Iraq, and Kosovo.

So, in the words of somebody (in)famous, make no mistake. If NATO would have to come face to face with a serious opponent determined to stand their ground, the result would be far less than clear. Despite the expansion, or technical superiority. Afghanistan. Not that I'm cheering to see it happen, unlike some here.

The Soviet Union was a "real" determined opponent, and it was defeated in the late 1980's.

"defeated", indeed! And we all know by whom. Could it be the same modest, unassuming people who won us the WWII? Launched the first rocket into space? Found WMD in Iraq?

It has become the defacto muscle and short circuit to United Nations impotency.

To that I can only agree. It's certainly did a lot to undermine already fragile framework of international law and justice. Right to the point where it's about to deteriorate into a useless talking club. If you want to interpret that as a sign of progress and "success", it's in the eye of the beholder.

It wouldn't work too well if they allowed themselves to be destroyed as a country because of a matter of principle.

Apologies, I haven't been clear enough. Most certainly they have full democratic right to sign agreements, break them, attack interests of a bigger pal, and have their a.. kicked in the process. At issue is our democratic obligation to cover their democratic ar... while they're involved in all of the above.

[Oleg Bach]

The point is that the NATO, and specifically, its "champions", should be worried lot more about the ideological foundations of the organization, than the arithmetics of the expansion. If numbers were any guarantee of success and continuous progress, we would be living in 2,000 years Rome.

The West has been given a brief historical window in which it could share its ideas with the world in a free non confrontational environment. The ideas materialized as Afghanistan, Iraq, and Kosovo.

So, in the words of somebody (in)famous, make no mistake. If NATO would have to come face to face with a serious opponent determined to stand their ground, the result would be far less than clear. Despite the expansion, or technical superiority. Afghanistan. Not that I'm cheering to see it happen, unlike some here.

"defeated", indeed! And we all know by whom. Could it be the same modest, unassuming people who won us the WWII? Launched the first rocket into space? Found WMD in Iraq?

To that I can only agree. It's certainly did a lot to undermine already fragile framework of international law and justice. Right to the point where it's about to deteriorate into a useless talking club. If you want to interpret that as a sign of progress and "success", it's in the eye of the beholder.

Apologies, I haven't been clear enough. Most certainly they have full democratic right to sign agreements, break them, attack interests of a bigger pal, and have their a.. kicked in the process. At issue is our democratic obligation to cover their democratic ar... while they're involved in all of the above.

How can you take Israel and America seriously at this point in history after what they just did in totally destablizing the middle east by terrorizing them and reverseing reality saying THEY have a war on terror? Georgia is NOT a seperate state or even culuture - To revisionize Georgia into the notion that they are some long lasting atonomous nation is a fraud - It would be like Russia being pissed off because the American administration was being heavey handed with say Texas...we should mind our own buisness...to approach the world stage as if the west is concerned about the poor oppressed people of Georgia is total hypcracy - they did not give a damn for Iraq or the Afghani people - it was all profit motivated...so lets get real and call a spade a spade - if Russia takes hold of the pipe lines which it has always controled - then the west will have to pay a bit more----the west acts like a spoiled entitled child who wants all for nothing - or by bullying - condi rice - what a joke!

[myata]

Another unwelcome development: Russia recognizes independence of breakaway provinces.

What started as a little surprise Olympic night "constitutional order" operation, is turning into a major incident that may influence the development of international politics for many years to come.

Possible fallouts:

- paralyzed UN security mechanism;

- build up of international political blocks and block politics;

- even more accentuated drift of Russia away from Western style democracy toward more authoritarian rule and international allegiances;

- new arms race and increased military spending around the globe

Who's to benefit from all this? Other than little pres Saakashville, who shot to the international celebrity status in a matter of weeks, and through no accomplishment of his own, I can see these obvious ones:

- US republicans;

- Russia's authoritarians;

- "Bad" regimes of the world (i.e those of them who's out of favour with the US)

- Big oil;

How good, "progressive", is it for the rest? I'm much less sure. One more time, our self gratitude, moral "superiority", brazen insistence to make rule for ourselves vs others held the best of us. If we, the West, have stood a principled position in the early hours of the conflict, as it has been discussed in the Security Council, the affair may have been avoided. Once again, the game is played out by the script, while we can't do much but stand by and watch.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Medvedev's full speach and commentaries published by Russia Today:

Medvedev backs independence for Abkhazia and South Ossetia

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has declared that Russia will recognise the independence of Georgia’s breakaway republics of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. He made the announcement in Sochi following a unanimous vote for the republics’ independence by both houses of the Russian Parliament in Moscow on Monday.

“We are all well aware of South Ossetia’s tragedy. The night shelling of Tskhinvali by the Georgian troops led to the deaths of thousands of civilians. Russian peacekeepers have died, but they did everything they could to protect the civilian population," Medvedev said in the announcement.

“The Georgian government - breaking UN regulations and its obligations to the international community, running counter to common sense - started a military conflict which claimed many civilians’ lives. Tbilisi must have planned to carry out a ‘blitzkrieg’ and chose the most inhumane way to annex South Ossetia – by destroying its whole population.”

Medvedev believes it can now be clearly seen that a peaceful resolution of the conflict was not in Tbilisi’s plans.

“The Georgian leadership was getting ready for war step by step,” he said. “And on the night of August 8, 2008, Tbilisi made its choice. Saakashvili chose genocide as a means to solve his political tasks. Doing this, he destroyed with his own hands all hopes for the peaceful living of South Ossetians, Abkhazians and Georgians as part of one state.”

“We understand that after what had happened in Tskhinvali, and what was planned to be done in Abkhazia, these people have a right to resolve their fates themselves. Presidents of both republics - basing their policies on the results of referendums and the decisions of the republics’ parliaments - turned to Russia, asking us to recognise the sovereignty of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

“The Federation Council and the State Duma of the Russian Federation voted in favour of these applications.

“We respect the free will of the South Ossetian and Abkhazian people, and basing our actions on international regulations and documents, I have signed an order to recognise the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia by the Russian Federation. Russia is also calling on other states to follow suit.”

Hard road to independence

South Ossetia, which borders Russia in the south Caucasus, and Abkhazia on the Black Sea, had previously attempted to break away from Georgia following referendums which were overwhelmingly in favour of independence. The results were ignored by Tbilisi, which claimed the ethnic Georgians forced to flee the regions were not consulted. The recent conflict in South Ossetia has added further urgency to the demands for self-determination.

The roots of the current discord can be traced back to the divide and conquer policies of Joseph Stalin - himself half Georgian, half Ossetian. Before the 1917 revolution, the ethnic groups of the Caucasus all lived as separate subjects of the Russian empire. However, with the Bolsheviks came the redrawing of the map, with both South Ossetia and Abkhazia becoming parts of Georgia.

When the Soviet Union collapsed, the then Georgian leader Zviad Gamsakhurdia advocated a nationalist "Georgia for the Georgians" policy, re-opening old wounds. Two military conflicts followed, leaving thousands dead and forcing many more to flee the conflict zones.

The ceasefire in the early 1990s brought de-facto independence to both regions with the shaky truce maintained by peacekeeping forces of mainly Russian troops.

Since becoming president in 2004, Mikhail Saakashvili has pledged to bring his country closer to the West, which has also motivated his drive to end the territorial disputes.

Ossetians and Georgians have lived side by side for centuries. The two groups share Soviet history and the Orthodox Christian religion and intermarriage is common. But the ties that once bound their cultures have been severely damaged in the trauma of the recent fighting. Kosovo's self-declared independence in February, too, has boosted these regions' ambitions.

Most Abkhazians and South Ossetians carry Russian passports and the only valid currency is the Russian rouble. In addition, both self-declared republics have presidents, flags and national anthems.

[moderateamericain]

I like that confidence! But only for the record: how does it measure against the reality? I mean, the last time US military had met a real determined opponent? Other incidents when US military had to fight their match?

- Germany (Ardennes)

- Japan (nukes)

- Korea

- Vietnam

Following this line of thought, I'm not sure if NATO in Georgia (or anywhere else) is really the answer to all our worries and concerns. Just look at the NATO in Afghanistan; or (some of) the NATO in Iraq; NATO in Srebrentitsa. Etc.

Lets see Germany-Surrendered twice

Japan- Nuked twice

Korea- Only held out because of influx of Chinese soldiers.

US and S korea lost 78,000 KIA

China and N Korea lost a Median guess of 500.000

Not that they couldnt lose a million and keep on coming

Vietnam- 60,000 US soldiers dead, versus How many Viet Kong and NVA regulars? I think the kill ratios were what 10 to 1. So thats 600,000 dead. But hey ill give you this one.

Just Incase you bring it up number of US deaths in Iraq due to combat 3370

Number of Iraqi COMBATANTS Killed 10,000 in intial invasion another 19 thousand since. so Roughly 30,000.

again a 10 to 1 body count.

thats still batting .750

Not many people know this but shortly after the vietnam war. China and Vietnam got into it. Vietnam stopped them cold and it only cost them about a million people to do it. But they did do it.

Edited August 27, 2008 by moderateamericain

[moderateamericain]

The real barbarians, my friend, now have the opportunity to hunt American meat in both Iraq and Afganistan and get butchered wholesale... practice makes dead haji's

There I fixed that for you

[Argus]

The real barbarians, my friend, now have the opportunity to hunt American meat in both Iraq and Afganistan... practice makes perfect

I think your posts amply demonstrate that Russians are the real barbarians.

[August1991]

TBILISI, GEORGIA – Virtually everyone believes Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili foolishly provoked a Russian invasion on August 7, 2008, when he sent troops into the breakaway district of South Ossetia. “The warfare began Aug. 7 when Georgia launched a barrage targeting South Ossetia,” the Associated Press reported over the weekend in typical fashion.

Virtually everyone is wrong. Georgia didn't start it on August 7, nor on any other date. The South Ossetian militia started it on August 6 when its fighters fired on Georgian peacekeepers and Georgian villages with weapons banned by the agreement hammered out between the two sides in 1994. At the same time, the Russian military sent its invasion force bearing down on Georgia from the north side of the Caucasus Mountains on the Russian side of the border through the Roki tunnel and into Georgia. This happened before Saakashvili sent additional troops to South Ossetia and allegedly started the war.

Link

This is my understanding too despite how most of the MSM presented this story originally.

This is a remarkable case where the Western media has so flagrantly gotten the facts wrong. I don't really fault the media for this. Georgia is far away and of supreme indifference to most people in the West.

Reports of tainted meat matter to people and the media will pay attention to accuracy; reports from Georgia don't matter and accuracy is not held to the same scrutiny.

[Rue]

LOL

I appreciate your knowledge and understanding of high-crime neighborhoods. Caucasus - not so much...

Russia already owned the Georgian pipeline. Now because of the conflict Georgia may choose to expropriate it...

Is it so hard to admit that for once someone who doesn't follow US orders is actually doing something good?

Further genocide was prevented by the Russian invasion. Believe it or not - Georgia was preparing to attack Abkhazia as well - both from land and sea. That's not gonna happen now...

Putin is a very intelligent ruler who walks a very thin line between democracy and authocracy. So far he has succeeded.

Bush is a tool. I would have called him "fascist" but you need a certain degree of intelligence for that...

Oh, coming back to the "hood" politics - isn't that what US is in Iraq for - a shakedown?

I appreciate you are crazy too. Bush is a dupe. Your problem is Dick Chaney-Donald Rumsfeld and Haliburton who were able to control US foreign policy to suit their financial interests. Are they fascists? Well technically Bush, Chaney and the retired Donald Duck are/were because they were on the government payroll. Blackwater and Haliburton are businesses with businessmen. We call them businessmen pr as Tony would say, " I am a business man ..".

That said yes I suppose the conflict could be restated as who owns the Georgia pipeline. Obviously Russia thinks it does I believe under international law Russia would have zero basis for arguing ownership of any pipeline that runs through Georgia. The sovereign state laws of Georgia would be recognized under international law as the prevailing laws to refer to, to determine any ownership of property within its borders. But hey we know how the law works. Only poor people can not afford to break it.

Now as for your theory Georgia was going to invade Abkhazia, the last time I looked that was within Georgia's legally constituted borders and so it is no business of Russia's under international law. If Russia feels human rights autrocities are about to be committed it should ask the United Nations to intervene. It has no legal authority to intervene unless it can show the legaly constituted government of Georgia asked it to intervene.

So let's do stop diddling with this daddle. We all know its an invasion and the pipelines do not belong to Russia precisely because they are in a sovereign nation and that is precisely why Russia invaded - it gives sweet f..ck all about international law.

Now you want to argue the Americans did the same thing in Iraq you can of course and I probably agree with you, but a wrong doesn't make another wrong right. Or more simply stated, they both have syphilis for the same reason, they stick themselves in places without taking the time to engage in foreplay and sniff out the terrain and make sure it has nothing contagious.

I also think unlike Georgia, Iraq had a real mad-man in charge and you can tell he had a mustache and a bad hair-cut, its a dead give away.

The first thing a genocidal maniac does is grow a mustache, get a bad haircut, engage in genocide and make sure he cozy's up to China or Russia or the West to be able to survive. Now mind you Moe Kaddafi did try grow one but he looked ridiculous and cut it off but he did perfect that bulgy eyed maniac look and you have to admire the fact that all his close bodyguards are Libyan babes.

Sure Hussein could have gone on killing millions until he turned on the U.S. and became rogue but your point?

How is that any different then all the other countries that also benefit from the propping the same maniacs? Why is it the US gets singled out but no one else? Since when is the US the only whore on this planet?

So me I can do with out all this sanctimonious yakka blab as to who is more righteous, the US or Russia. Its about oil pipelines and everyone in this conflict is looking out for their best interests and if Russia or China or the US or anyone else has to support some sociopathic meglomaniac they will.

In regards to Iraq, yes I believe the US should have waited and let the UN lead any military action for it to have been legal. No I do not think the UN ever would and yes I believe the US went in to protect its oil and rid themselves of a rogue agent and didn't do it because they felt Hussein was a mad man or because of that pathetic cover story of terrorism, etc.

But how is that any different then what Russia or China does?

If the US doesn't make clear it will deal swiftly with rogue agents it will have more and more of their puppets turn on them thinking they can get away with it. Likewise with the Chinese and Russians. Remember that sucker who got radiated in London? You think Vlad Putin was sending a message or what. Its business. You f..ck with your patron as they say in the neighbourhood, and its a quick way to find yourself swimming in cement shoes.

The difference between the US and Russia is the Americans pay their whores and give chewing gum, the Russians just rape them. The Chinese take their clothes off, recycle the clothes, then sell them back to the whore at twice the price after using slave labour of course to make them.

Bah.

Edited August 27, 2008 by Rue

[Argus]

Link

This is my understanding too despite how most of the MSM presented this story originally.

This is a remarkable case where the Western media has so flagrantly gotten the facts wrong. I don't really fault the media for this. Georgia is far away and of supreme indifference to most people in the West.

This pretty much gels with what I've read elsewhere. The mainstream media is simply lazy and like to get their news by faxed press release while sitting around the hotel pool. The easiest answer to put in a 30 second sound byte is what they use.

The Russians set this all up, prepared for it, and then started it, and now they're blubbering all over the airwaves about Georgian genocide and how they were just defending themselves. You see the echoes in the fanatic pro-Russian types here relentlessly pumping out the Russia-Was-Just-Defending-People spiel. As if Russia ever cared about defending anyone but the crooked men in the Kremlin.

[PoliticalCitizen]

This pretty much gels with what I've read elsewhere. The mainstream media is simply lazy and like to get their news by faxed press release while sitting around the hotel pool. The easiest answer to put in a 30 second sound byte is what they use.

The Russians set this all up, prepared for it, and then started it, and now they're blubbering all over the airwaves about Georgian genocide and how they were just defending themselves. You see the echoes in the fanatic pro-Russian types here relentlessly pumping out the Russia-Was-Just-Defending-People spiel. As if Russia ever cared about defending anyone but the crooked men in the Kremlin.

Right. All that's left is to find another BS link that shows WMD found in Iraq.

BTW, check out this masterpiece:

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1358

Israel backs Georgia in Caspian Oil Pipeline Battle with Russia

DEBKAfile Exclusive Report

August 8, 2008

Georgian tanks and infantry, aided by Israeli military advisers, captured the capital of breakaway South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, early Friday, Aug. 8, bringing the Georgian-Russian conflict over the province to a military climax.

Russian prime minister Vladimir Putin threatened a “military response.”

Former Soviet Georgia called up its military reserves after Russian warplanes bombed its new positions in the renegade province.

In Moscow’s first response to the fall of Tskhinvali, president Dimitry Medvedev ordered the Russian army to prepare for a national emergency after calling the UN Security Council into emergency session early Friday.

Reinforcements were rushed to the Russian “peacekeeping force” present in the region to support the separatists.

Georgian tanks entered the capital after heavy overnight heavy aerial strikes, in which dozens of people were killed.

Lado Gurgenidze, Georgia's prime minister, said on Friday that Georgia will continue its military operation in South Ossetia until a "durable peace" is reached. "As soon as a durable peace takes hold we need to move forward with dialogue and peaceful negotiations."

DEBKAfile’s geopolitical experts note that on the surface level, the Russians are backing the separatists of S. Ossetia and neighboring Abkhazia as payback for the strengthening of American influence in tiny Georgia and its 4.5 million inhabitants. However, more immediately, the conflict has been sparked by the race for control over the pipelines carrying oil and gas out of the Caspian region.

The Russians may just bear with the pro-US Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili’s ambition to bring his country into NATO. But they draw a heavy line against his plans and those of Western oil companies, including Israeli firms, to route the oil routes from Azerbaijan and the gas lines from Turkmenistan, which transit Georgia, through Turkey instead of hooking them up to Russian pipelines.

Saakashvili need only back away from this plan for Moscow to ditch the two provinces’ revolt against Tbilisi. As long as he sticks to his guns, South Ossetia and Abkhazia will wage separatist wars.

DEBKAfile discloses Israel’s interest in the conflict from its exclusive military sources:

Jerusalem owns a strong interest in Caspian oil and gas pipelines reach the Turkish terminal port of Ceyhan, rather than the Russian network. Intense negotiations are afoot between Israel Turkey, Georgia, Turkmenistan and Azarbaijan for pipelines to reach Turkey and thence to Israel’s oil terminal at Ashkelon and on to its Red Sea port of Eilat. From there, supertankers can carry the gas and oil to the Far East through the Indian Ocean.

Aware of Moscow’s sensitivity on the oil question, Israel offered Russia a stake in the project but was rejected.

Last year, the Georgian president commissioned from private Israeli security firms several hundred military advisers, estimated at up to 1,000, to train the Georgian armed forces in commando, air, sea, armored and artillery combat tactics. They also offer instruction on military intelligence and security for the central regime. Tbilisi also purchased weapons, intelligence and electronic warfare systems from Israel.

These advisers were undoubtedly deeply involved in the Georgian army’s preparations to conquer the South Ossetian capital Friday.

In recent weeks, Moscow has repeatedly demanded that Jerusalem halt its military assistance to Georgia, finally threatening a crisis in bilateral relations. Israel responded by saying that the only assistance rendered Tbilisi was “defensive.”

This has not gone down well in the Kremlin. Therefore, as the military crisis intensifies in South Ossetia, Moscow may be expected to punish Israel for its intervention.

[PoliticalCitizen]

I appreciate you are crazy too. Bush is a dupe. Your problem is Dick Chaney-Donald Rumsfeld and Haliburton who were able to control US foreign policy to suit their financial interests. Are they fascists? Well technically Bush, Chaney and the retired Donald Duck are/were because they were on the government payroll. Blackwater and Haliburton are businesses with businessmen. We call them businessmen pr as Tony would say, " I am a business man ..".

That said yes I suppose the conflict could be restated as who owns the Georgia pipeline. Obviously Russia thinks it does I believe under international law Russia would have zero basis for arguing ownership of any pipeline that runs through Georgia. The sovereign state laws of Georgia would be recognized under international law as the prevailing laws to refer to, to determine any ownership of property within its borders. But hey we know how the law works. Only poor people can not afford to break it.

Now as for your theory Georgia was going to invade Abkhazia, the last time I looked that was within Georgia's legally constituted borders and so it is no business of Russia's under international law. If Russia feels human rights autrocities are about to be committed it should ask the United Nations to intervene. It has no legal authority to intervene unless it can show the legaly constituted government of Georgia asked it to intervene.

So let's do stop diddling with this daddle. We all know its an invasion and the pipelines do not belong to Russia precisely because they are in a sovereign nation and that is precisely why Russia invaded - it gives sweet f..ck all about international law.

Now you want to argue the Americans did the same thing in Iraq you can of course and I probably agree with you, but a wrong doesn't make another wrong right. Or more simply stated, they both have syphilis for the same reason, they stick themselves in places without taking the time to engage in foreplay and sniff out the terrain and make sure it has nothing contagious.

I also think unlike Georgia, Iraq had a real mad-man in charge and you can tell he had a mustache and a bad hair-cut, its a dead give away.

The first thing a genocidal maniac does is grow a mustache, get a bad haircut, engage in genocide and make sure he cozy's up to China or Russia or the West to be able to survive. Now mind you Moe Kaddafi did try grow one but he looked ridiculous and cut it off but he did perfect that bulgy eyed maniac look and you have to admire the fact that all his close bodyguards are Libyan babes.

Sure Hussein could have gone on killing millions until he turned on the U.S. and became rogue but your point?

How is that any different then all the other countries that also benefit from the propping the same maniacs? Why is it the US gets singled out but no one else? Since when is the US the only whore on this planet?

So me I can do with out all this sanctimonious yakka blab as to who is more righteous, the US or Russia. Its about oil pipelines and everyone in this conflict is looking out for their best interests and if Russia or China or the US or anyone else has to support some sociopathic meglomaniac they will.

In regards to Iraq, yes I believe the US should have waited and let the UN lead any military action for it to have been legal. No I do not think the UN ever would and yes I believe the US went in to protect its oil and rid themselves of a rogue agent and didn't do it because they felt Hussein was a mad man or because of that pathetic cover story of terrorism, etc.

But how is that any different then what Russia or China does?

If the US doesn't make clear it will deal swiftly with rogue agents it will have more and more of their puppets turn on them thinking they can get away with it. Likewise with the Chinese and Russians. Remember that sucker who got radiated in London? You think Vlad Putin was sending a message or what. Its business. You f..ck with your patron as they say in the neighbourhood, and its a quick way to find yourself swimming in cement shoes.

The difference between the US and Russia is the Americans pay their whores and give chewing gum, the Russians just rape them. The Chinese take their clothes off, recycle the clothes, then sell them back to the whore at twice the price after using slave labour of course to make them.

Bah.

Another nice long post from you.

I think I have a pretty good understanding of your points of view now.

Even though the conflict may be interpreted as "about oil" the major Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline (1mln b/day) does not pass through the break-away regions (the closest it gets is 55 km to the South Ossetian border). Since Russia is not annexing the break-away regions and even less - Georgia, the pipeline will be just fine after the conflict.

Oh, the map that you checked - you may need to check it again in a couple of months or so. After the recognition of the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia by Russia Georgia will be attacking another country if they try to "re-unite" again. And the retaliation will be much more powerful than this time.

Saakashvili already has a bad haircut, he just needs the little mustache to look like the micro-Hitler he is

Medvedev said there are 25 million Russians that ended up locked in foreign countries after the break-up of USSR. Most of them are probably in Ukraine (Krimea was never really "Ukrainian").

So yeah, it is a clear message - you f*ck with our citizens - we f*ck you up real good and let the West watch madly and helplessly as you're hung out to dry...

I just HOPE Ukraine got the lesson...

Edited August 28, 2008 by PoliticalCitizen