Canada's Gas Prices

[August1991]

If you call paying world oil prices at the pump a benefit I would hate to know what you coin a liability.

Should you (a Canadian) work for me (a Canadian) for $5 an hour or should you work (if you can) at international ($10) wages.

If you (a Canadian) have a painting that I (a Canadian) like, should I be able to buy it for $5000 even though a foreigner wants it (at $10,000)?

Should I (a Canadian) be able to force you (a Canadian) to provide a service to me for less than a foreigner is wiling to pay? How is that good for Canada? If you were married to Celine Dion, would you insist that she wash your dishes/make your bed rather than sing in Las Vegas?

The United States treats Canada like garbage. Canada is hollowed out by Foreign owned companies that toss people out of work the second profits soften to protect their bottom line. Canada needs to stop transfering its wealth to oil companies and look after itself first.

The US treats Canada like garbage?

You mean that Americans want our oil but refuse to buy our softwood lumber. That makes Americans bad because they want our natural resources but also bad because they don't. I'm confused.

Then again, whatever Americans do - want to buy/refuse to buy - they're bad. So simple: Whatever the US does, it treats Canada like garbage. US? In politically-correct-speak, you've turned Americans into a 'visible minority'. Whatever they do, they're guilty.

Edited July 23, 2008 by August1991

[Visionseeker]

The bubble is about to burst.

It already has.

Major government projects in China hit their peak in April and are now starting to decline. In addition, China is set to begin relaxing its domestic consumption subsidy program in September. The Chinese have known for 3 years that they cannot maintain their incredible growth streak indefinitely. But they've refused to take any action before the Olympic Games are over in order to avoid having economic protests and demonstrations mar their international image during the games.

What many here don’t realize is that the recent Tibetan uprising was primarily fuelled by a consistent rise in the region’s unemployment levels following the completion and/or scaling back of massive infrastructure projects in the region. Tibet was, in a sense, an experiment in what to expect in China when the austerity belt gets pulled.

Edited July 23, 2008 by Visionseeker

[whowhere]

Should you (a Canadian) work for me (a Canadian) for $5 an hour or should you work (if you can) at international ($10) wages.

If you (a Canadian) have a painting that I (a Canadian) like, should I be able to buy it for $5000 even though a foreigner wants it (at $10,000)?

Should I (a Canadian) be able to force you (a Canadian) to provide a service to me for less than a foreigner is wiling to pay? How is that good for Canada? If you were married to Celine Dion, would you insist that she wash your dishes/make your bed rather than sing in Las Vegas?

The US treats Canada like garbage?

You mean that Americans want our oil but refuse to buy our softwood lumber. That makes Americans bad because they want our natural resources but also bad because they don't. I'm confused.

Then again, whatever Americans do - want to buy/refuse to buy - they're bad. So simple: Whatever the US does, it treats Canada like garbage.

Huh? How is 1/2 Billion dollars siphoned out of Canada into the Oil Companies pockets a benefit to Canada. Yes, if Canadians can get higher wages for their work they pay more income taxes and benefit Canada, but in case you haven't heard factories and offices are closing down because of the high dollar, high oil prices, and cheaper labour costs in china and india. Hey, that's ok as long the Oil Companies get their money, the sell out bird brain albertans get their jobs and rebate checks everything is peachy.

Once again, I am sure the 20 per barrel cost to extract oil from Alberta already incorporates all royalties and other costs going to Alberta. The fact is, for the Average Albertan it would make no difference if oil was sold at $45 or $145. However, it would make an immense difference to Canada. The only loser would be the oil companies and their excessive greed. I would rather see that 1/2 billion dollars a day kept in Canada.

[blueblood]

if so, wanna bet the per litre price doesnt come down to the same price it was when going up?

nope, I have to agree with you there. The gas stations need to make their money after losing a bunch recently. Lots closed up shop in the U.S.

[August1991]

Once again, I am sure the 20 per barrel cost to extract oil from Alberta already incorporates all royalties and other costs going to Alberta.

Would you say the same of our softwood lumber?

Do our stumpage fees cover all costs/royalties accurately?

----

Once again, why is it bad if Americans refuse to buy our wood and yet also bad if Americans want to buy our oil/water?

I can only conclude that for some Canadians, whatever Americans do, they're wrong/bad.

Edited July 23, 2008 by August1991

[Wild Bill]

Canada has very, very little in the way of oil reserves.

Alberta, however, has vast amounts and the rest of the Canadian bloodsuckers should keep their minds occupied with what they DO own - Bombardier and Tim Hortons. If anything, the Alberta government should double or triple the sales cost of oil (taxes) and credit back Albertans on their tax returns. That way we remain prosperous and the everyone else can support our driving SUV's, boats and motorhomes. It's our resource, not yours. Remember, natural resources are the jurisdiction of the provinces not the federal government.

Quite right! It's Alberta's resource and they should get whatever price they want for it!

It's your right. Of course, we in Ontario have rights as well. If Alberta is just another of many world sources of energy then we should return any loyalty (or lack of it) from Alberta in kind. Perhaps Alberta SHOULD separate! They would be rather landlocked so we would have to be careful with how expensive we make borders and tolls. Too much and Alberta might join up with the States. Still, that's the spirit of competition. If the Americans offer Alberta a better deal...

I'm NOT suggesting that Alberta owes the rest of Canada some ridiculously high discount on energy! We common folk would never see it anyway. Ottawa would gobble it up and leave us little or nothing. It's just that comments like yours encourage us to think of Alberta as about as friendly a family member as Quebec.

Couldn't you just throw us a LITTLE bone so we wouldn't hate you? Remember, it wasn't the little guy in Ontario that imposed the NEP. It was Ottawa!

Manning taught us that Ottawa is and has always been our real common enemy. Nobody wants to belong to a club where your major function is to just pay all the dues so that other members can gobble up all the beer and doughnuts. You think Alberta feels gouged? Suck it up! That's what living in Ontario has ALWAYS meant, clear back to 1867.

Now Ontario is becoming poor. Another big Ford factory cutback hit the news this morning. We're in an economic freefall, despite the pollyanna crap coming from Harper and Dalton. Yet there is zip all talk from Ottawa or anywhere else about maybe giving us some transfer breaks.

Perhaps Canada SHOULD break up and petition the Americans to join up!

I'm just not sure that with such an entrenched system of entitlement and Ottawa brokerage politics the Americans would feel it a good idea for THEM!

[bush_cheney2004]

Now Ontario is becoming poor. Another big Ford factory cutback hit the news this morning....

Delicious irony be this....Henry Ford, the Great Canadian?

Perhaps Canada SHOULD break up and petition the Americans to join up!

That's not how it works. You would be in line behind tiny Puerto Rico.

I'm just not sure that with such an entrenched system of entitlement and Ottawa brokerage politics the Americans would feel it a good idea for THEM!

Nope...but I hear that Russia is taking applications.

[eyeball]

If Americans refuse to buy (or want to buy) our water, oil, wood, is that good or bad for us? Please explain.

I was thinking more along the lines that one day America might insist we sell only to them. Look at what happens when suppliers don't comply with Walmart's buying policies.

[eyeball]

Once again, why is it bad if Americans refuse to buy our wood

They only refuse to buy our lumber, on the other hand they'll take all the timber we can send them.

[M.Dancer]

I was thinking more along the lines that one day America might insist we sell only to them. Look at what happens when suppliers don't comply with Walmart's buying policies.

Pretty much the same as when suppliers don't meet our needs either.

Walmart I bet is nothing compared to the federal governement. Years ago when I worked for an industrial plastics company, the feds shipping instructions were about 5 pages long...any variation to the packaging or labeling would mean the fright was sent back at our cost.

[Wild Bill]

Pretty much the same as when suppliers don't meet our needs either.

Walmart I bet is nothing compared to the federal governement. Years ago when I worked for an industrial plastics company, the feds shipping instructions were about 5 pages long...any variation to the packaging or labeling would mean the fright was sent back at our cost.

I remember back in the 70's I worked for a newly opened branch of an electronics distributor. We were pleased when we won our first government quote for some integrated circuits, until they rejected our shipment. Turns out we hadn't noticed the packaging instructions. They specified packaging methods that were the original industry method, which had long since become obsolete. We were forced to manually package each individual IC to satisfy the government's obsolete requirements.

It was a good lesson. We quickly realized that most major sources refused to quote on government requisitions, as the paperwork and packaging burned up all the profit for what was usually a comparatively low value order anyway. Those few who would quote did so at a sky-high inflated price. Why not? Often you would be the only one who bothered to return the quote! So you could make a great margin.

Now, the official reason for government purchase and requisition methods is to protect the taxpayers' monies. In practice it did nothing of the kind. Their methods actually inflate their costs.

What else is new?

[Wild Bill]

Delicious irony be this....Henry Ford, the Great Canadian?

That's not how it works. You would be in line behind tiny Puerto Rico.

Nope...but I hear that Russia is taking applications.

I wouldn't crow too loudly. The time is rapidly approaching when Uncle Sam is going to be desperate for our freshwater.

We have enough America-bashing yammerheads up here already. Comments like yours only feed them.

You get more flies with honey.

[bush_cheney2004]

...It was a good lesson. We quickly realized that most major sources refused to quote on government requisitions, as the paperwork and packaging burned up all the profit for what was usually a comparatively low value order anyway.....

It got even worse for NAFTA....a Canadian firm would order some of our laminated or thin films materials but it cost more to complete the additional paperwork (e.g. declaring percentage content from each country) than it took to manufacture the films in the first place. So we we just jacked up the prices. Only very large buys would get a discount.

[eyeball]

Now, the official reason for government purchase and requisition methods is to protect the taxpayers' monies. In practice it did nothing of the kind. Their methods actually inflate their costs.

What else is new?

Bump

[bush_cheney2004]

I wouldn't crow too loudly. The time is rapidly approaching when Uncle Sam is going to be desperate for our freshwater.

I'm not worried since I live in a state with 15,000 lakes. Also, the Red River flows north (wink wink).

We have enough America-bashing yammerheads up here already. Comments like yours only feed them.

I know...that's why I do it.

You get more flies with honey.

Got plenty of flies...be needin' more bees.

[Smallc]

I'm not worried since I live in a state with 15,000 lakes. Also, the Red River flows north (wink wink).

That's OK, the province it flows into has over 100,000 lakes.

[bush_cheney2004]

That's OK, the province it flows into has over 100,000 lakes.

Good....it will help to replenish our aquifers too.

[Smallc]

Good....it will help to replenish our aquifers too.

I was just pointing out that even without the Red, we wouldn't run out of water lol.

[Hydraboss]

Quite right! It's Alberta's resource and they should get whatever price they want for it!

Yes, we should. And I stand by my original theory of doubling the prices and crediting Albertans.

It's your right. Of course, we in Ontario have rights as well. If Alberta is just another of many world sources of energy then we should return any loyalty (or lack of it) from Alberta in kind. Perhaps Alberta SHOULD separate! They would be rather landlocked so we would have to be careful with how expensive we make borders and tolls. Too much and Alberta might join up with the States. Still, that's the spirit of competition. If the Americans offer Alberta a better deal...

Unlike the rest of Canada, the US would love to have Alberta. "Alberta - Canada's Texas". We wouldn't need to cross any Canadian border...the Montana one would suffice (follow the pipeline). I would love to see Canada try to "return any lack of loyalty in kind". What exactly would that be? Force us to keep our transfer billions? Oh god, no! And you are definitely right; Alberta should seperate.

I'm NOT suggesting that Alberta owes the rest of Canada some ridiculously high discount on energy! We common folk would never see it anyway. Ottawa would gobble it up and leave us little or nothing. It's just that comments like yours encourage us to think of Alberta as about as friendly a family member as Quebec.

Alberta owes the rest of Canada absolutely nothing. I would sooner see the US get a discount than eastern Canada.

Couldn't you just throw us a LITTLE bone so we wouldn't hate you? Remember, it wasn't the little guy in Ontario that imposed the NEP. It was Ottawa!

And just who the hell kept the Liberal bastards in power? Ontario and Kwebek.

Manning taught us that Ottawa is and has always been our real common enemy. Nobody wants to belong to a club where your major function is to just pay all the dues so that other members can gobble up all the beer and doughnuts. You think Alberta feels gouged? Suck it up! That's what living in Ontario has ALWAYS meant, clear back to 1867.

All Alberta IS is the money-supplying colony for Canada. Soon we'll be the only "have province" left. And very possibly paying for Dion's "green shift".

Now Ontario is becoming poor. Another big Ford factory cutback hit the news this morning. We're in an economic freefall, despite the pollyanna crap coming from Harper and Dalton. Yet there is zip all talk from Ottawa or anywhere else about maybe giving us some transfer breaks.

Must be payback for voting Liberal all those years. Serves you right.

Perhaps Canada SHOULD break up and petition the Americans to join up!

See point #2. The US would most likely refuse to take on more foster children to be supported (eastern Canada).

I'm just not sure that with such an entrenched system of entitlement and Ottawa brokerage politics the Americans would feel it a good idea for TH

I'm sure they wouldn't want a bunch of socialists that consistently demonize them.

[Pliny]

You know what? I predicted on another thread a few weeks ago that the price of gas would go down and that it would go down again after the summer.

The thing about speculators is that they do serve a purpose in the market. they are attempting to predict demand and as such do drive up the price of a commodity. Of course they see that the demand is rising and bet it will continue to rise by bidding up the price. The price rises and this stimulates production - the supply side. So for awhile we get a bubble and pay high prices. this is the market working to increase supply. The price is high and suppliers want to cash in. They bring a greater supply to the market to meet the demand and the price goes down. Certain politicians get everyone in a frenzy about the constituents who complain they feel they are being gouged or the prices are too high or someone is (gulp) making a profit. the government then places price controls on the commodity and suppliers no longer want to sell their wares to that particular country and a shortage results with lineups and rationing becoming vogue.

So while some Economists direly predict we will see $200/barrel oil by the end of the year and politicians start the yammering and chanting for "effective" political action market forces naturally bring the price down. We may see $200/barrel oil sometime in the future but not in the short term. Inflation will have to work a little bit longer than the end of the year. Inflation is of course an increase in the money supply or easing of credit - or an "easing of monetary policy" to quote the central bank. The result of inflation is a general increase in prices.

I would allow speculators to do their job and make their money which is far more effective than government intervention in the market.

[August1991]

You know what? I predicted on another thread a few weeks ago that the price of gas would go down and that it would go down again after the summer.

The thing about speculators is that they do serve a purpose in the market. they are attempting to predict demand and as such do drive up the price of a commodity. Of course they see that the demand is rising and bet it will continue to rise by bidding up the price.

Not to quibble but speculators try to predict demand, supply and a whole host of other things too.

It is wrong to say that speculators drive the price up just as it is wrong to say that they drive the price down. Speculators try to predict next year's price today and bet accordingly. In so doing, and assuming they're right, the price is more accurate.

Now then, here's another question. If you own an oil well and you think (or hear) that the price next year will be $200/barrel, what do you do?

Edited July 24, 2008 by August1991

[M.Dancer]

if so, wanna bet the per litre price doesnt come down to the same price it was when going up?

Depends pon when you mean. I remember it starting to rise quickly when it was 65 cents...today, $1.25...

[eyeball]

...the government then places price controls on the commodity and suppliers no longer want to sell their wares to that particular country and a shortage results with lineups and rationing becoming vogue.

The problem though is that some governments are subsidizing the commodity and suppliers are more than happy to keep selling to them. Supppliers are downright ecstatic in fact, populations in other countries have to pay the same price without subsidies while speculators defend their profits. Its perverted.

I would allow speculators to do their job and make their money which is far more effective than government intervention in the market.

Okay, but I'd tax the living shit out of profits (and pollution) from oil production and speculation and lower the taxes that unsubsidized commodity consumers are paying.

Edited July 24, 2008 by eyeball

[Wild Bill]

Mr. Hydraboss, I do hope you are blaming Ontario in general and not myself in particular when you make accusations about voting Liberal. I am most emphatically NOT a Liberal voter!

You speak as if every single Ontarioan voted Liberal. As if they received 100% of the votes. True, a majority of seats consistently did but in terms of the popular vote it was hardly so one-sided. A huge number of us lived through those years in helpless horror.

Thanks for the sympathy!

You are obviously a strong Albertan separatist. I can understand your point of view. I still have perhaps the very first Reform membership cards issued to Ontario. I've talked with many folks of your persuasion.

I also watched Calgary HQ run some of the most inept, inappropriate and downright ignorant campaigns in Ontario, riding roughshod over local people who knew better. The by-election fiasco against Sheila Copps damn near made me cry. What a stupid waste of time and effort by arrogant Calgarians who knew less than nothing about what worked in that riding. We actually LOST ground!

Anyhow, you're entitled to your opinions. If enough of your neighbours share them then who knows, the status quo may change. Personally, I wouldn't miss Alberta. I have little or no connection to that province. Others have family and friends involved so mine might not be the majority view.

Or yours, for that matter. As long as you don't support arbitrary over-ruling the majority wishes of the Alberta electorate I can respect you for your beliefs.

Still, one word of caution. It's too easy to accept the status quo of today as all that matters. Nations prosper better if they take a long term view. Today it might be better for Alberta or Ontario to go it alone or sign up with the US of A. 100 years ago or 100 years from today that might not be true.

It can be impossible sometimes to retreat from a major drastic change.

[guyser]

You are obviously a strong Albertan separatist. I can understand your point of view.

For the most part I dont. The gdp per capita is #1 in CDA but it is not #1 overall. It seems some Albertans are believing the hype, that without them CDA would be in trouble. Well, 4M people hardly compares to the 12M in Ont. Taxes sent to Ottawa pale in comparison.

Anyhow, you're entitled to your opinions. If enough of your neighbours share them then who knows, the status quo may change. Personally, I wouldn't miss Alberta. I have little or no connection to that province. Others have family and friends involved so mine might not be the majority view.

I would miss them, but I wont worry a whit about it since it wont happen. Albertans , outside of the few angry ones arent going anywhere. Canada is alive and strong in Alberta. It is folly to think otherwise.Pretty much the same with Quebecers, you can hear the shrill voices of the separatists but they dont rep the province, same as Alberta.