Are we lucky, or what?

[August1991]

There's really four nations-- the US, Canada, the UK, and Australia-- that share our heritage, and while I've never been Down Under, I don't think that I'd make that great an Aussie, and while I've loved England, I don't think I'd make the world's best Brit either, but I sure am happy to be an American, and I know I'd make a damn fine Canadian, too.

I'm sorry to intrude on the "circle jerk" that you seem to have provoked, AW. (What an expression. I learned it recently and it seems to apply here.)

There are many, many people around the world who are perfectly happy to live where they live and who have absolutely no desire to live in the USA, or the other countries you note.

Don't get me wrong. I'm quick to defend America and its ideals (that I believe are still as strong as 200 years ago). I'll even go as far as this: Being American is a sufficient condition for being happy but it's not a necessary condition.

Good question....I have always wondered why/how (some) Canadians can judge Americans in such a light when faced with glaring challenges at home (e.g. Quebec or Western separatism, multiculturalism), something that Americans also dealt with in a very American way. Europe is only now coming to grips with abject failure in this regard wrt Muslims.

Uh, but you haven't really dealt with this fundamental question, one left over from the Declaration of Independence, and this upcoming election has every chance of raising the question once again.

In Canada, our first "minority" PM was elected in 1896.

[bush_cheney2004]

Uh, but you haven't really dealt with this fundamental question, one left over from the Declaration of Independence, and this upcoming election has every chance of raising the question once again.

In Canada, our first "minority" PM was elected in 1896.

Point noted, but Canadian PMs are not directly elected. Even MLK would agree that it is important that character prevail over skin colour or "minority" status.

As an aside, and while reviewing the Lower Canada Rebellion, I realized that all these years Canada has represented what would have happened if the rebelling American colonialists had failed.

[Guest American Woman]

I'm sorry to intrude on the "circle jerk" that you seem to have provoked, AW. (What an expression. I learned it recently and it seems to apply here.)

There are many, many people around the world who are perfectly happy to live where they live and who have absolutely no desire to live in the USA, or the other countries you note.

Don't get me wrong. I'm quick to defend America and its ideals (that I believe are still as strong as 200 years ago). I'll even go as far as this: Being American is a sufficient condition for being happy but it's not a necessary condition.

Actually, the term "circle jerk" most definitely does not apply here-- this thread is no where near being a circle jerk. We just celebrated Canada Day and the Fourth of July, both holidays to celebrate our nations, so I believe we have every right to do just that without being accused of being in a circle jerk.

I never even suggested that everyone born outside of our nations desire to live here, nor did I so much as suggest that people living elsewhere aren't happy to live where they do. I brought up the nations I did because, as I already said, we are all from the same 'mother land'/background-- and I was speaking strictly for myself-- I'm glad to be an American as we celebrate our nation's independence, and I'm happy to have Canada as a neighbor-- and I'd be right happy to be a Canadian, too. You think it's wrong to acknowledge that?

There may be women who are just fine with living in places like Saudi Arabia, but that wouldn't be me. I own my own home, I love my life, and I'm not afraid to say so. I wouldn't have had the same opportunities if I had been born in any number of nations other than ours. So I said, in light of celebrating Canada Day and the Fourth of July, that we are fortunate to live where we do; to have been born where we were born. And we are.

Furthermore, there is a countless number of people who do desire to live here, and risk their lives to live in our countries-- people from Mexico, Cuba, China (arriving in shipping containers)-- while no one from our nations is risking their life to live elsewhere. If you don't think that's something to be appreciative of, I'm guessing these other people would beg to differ.

Edited July 5, 2008 by American Woman

[August1991]

Furthermore, there is a countless number of people who do desire to live here, and risk their lives to live in our countries-- people from Mexico, Cuba, China (arriving in shipping containers)-- while no one from our nations is risking their life to live elsewhere. If you don't think that's something to be appreciative of, I'm guessing these other people would beg to differ.

And there are countless others who have no desire to live in America.

Deanna Durbin was an "American" born in Winnipeg who chose to live in Europe. John Lennon was a "European" born in Liverpool who chose to live in America. Is Europe better or more civilized than America?

Different people choose different places to live for a whole host of reasons and in general, it is wrong to say that one place is better than another place.

IMV, it is best to celebrate the freedom to choose where to live.

-----

Since this seems to have become the unofficial thread of America for this 4th of July, let me give two quotes - one drawing exception to America.

On the Fourth of July, the day we celebrate America's liberty and independence, it's worth contemplating how much more free America is than most other nations in the West.

Why? The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. How very much depends on these 45 words:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

"The First Amendment really does distinguish the U.S., not just from Canada but from the rest of the Western world," says writer Mark Steyn, who's learning it the hard way.

...

Dallas News

"My country is the world and my religion is to do good."

Tom Paine

America is a product of the Enlightenment. In a sense, it's not merely a country but also a way to understand one's place in the universe.

[Guest American Woman]

And there are countless others who have no desire to live in America.

Please point out where I said otherwise. I have to wonder if you've even read what I've said.

Deanna Durbin was an "American" born in Winnipeg who chose to live in Europe. John Lennon was a "European" born in Liverpool who chose to live in America. Is Europe better or more civilized than America?

Different people choose different places to live for a whole host of reasons and in general, ....

Who's been talking about choosing where to live?-- I'm talking about the 'luck of the draw' regarding where one is born, and I stated that quite clearly. And once again, we are lucky/fortunate to have been born in the U.S. and Canada. Do you not feel fortunate?

....it is wrong to say that one place is better than another place.

Please point out where I said "one place is better than another place." I said we are fortunate to have been born where we were-- and we are; and the days of our nations' national celebrations is the time for expressing our appreciation.

IMV, it is best to celebrate the freedom to choose where to live.

And IMV, it's good to celebrate being fortunate enough to have been born in such a place.

In light of your comments, I have to assume you are against celebrating Canada Day and the Fourth of July. We should chuck those holidays and instead sit around thinking about all the other nations out there, never having appreciation for where we were born and for what we have. In that case, I say suit yourself. As for myself, I still feel like "the happiest girl in the whole USA."

[Shady]

Leave it to Canadians to flame someone who simply stated happy holiday, we're lucky to live where we do. So far, the list of retards consists of g_bambino, HisSelf, follwed closely by August1991. Way to make us all proud, retards! I really didn't want to comment this way, considering the theme of the thread. But some of you are head-shakingly stupid.

[bush_cheney2004]

Leave it to Canadians to flame someone who simply stated happy holiday, we're lucky to live where we do....

Not to worry...none of them are voting with their feet for anything better that I can see. Millions of immigrants to Canada and the USA agree.

[DogOnPorch]

To me, it isn't a case of one or the other. Our two nations are bound together in ways most other countries aren't. My wife grew up in Minnisota and Alaska...born in NewfoundLand. My family occupies BC, Alberta, Ontario, Washington, Oregon, Montana, Idaho, Illinois and New York State. America has always been family. I'm sure the same is true for many Canadians.

-----------------------------------------------------

I only regret that I have but one life to give for my country.

---Nathan Hale

[jbg]

As an aside, and while reviewing the Lower Canada Rebellion, I realized that all these years Canada has represented what would have happened if the rebelling American colonialists had failed.

Canada has more resembled what the US would have looked like had the seceding South succeeded in gaining peace on their terms.

[jbg]

To me, it isn't a case of one or the other. Our two nations are bound together in ways most other countries aren't. My wife grew up in Minnisota and Alaska...born in NewfoundLand. My family occupies BC, Alberta, Ontario, Washington, Oregon, Montana, Idaho, Illinois and New York State. America has always been family. I'm sure the same is true for many Canadians.

Totally agreed.

On the occasion of July 4, US Independence Day and close to Dominion Day, I will affirmatively and strongly state that we owe a lot of our prosperity and happiness to having perhaps the best neighbors one can have; neighbors with a common culture, common history (up to 1774 that is), similar language and familial and business ties that make the relationship stronger than blood.

The U.S. is a more brassily patriotic country. Tonight, my wife and I watched fireworks displays and patriotic concerts preceding them from across the country. I don't believe in any country do you hear, in so many cities and spontaneously organized (with no government input) medleys of songs such as:

• Yankee Doodle;
  
• She's a Grand Old Flag;
  
• G-d Bless America;
  
• Our Country T'is of Thee (plagarized from G-d Save the Queen);
  
• This Land is Your Land; and of course
  
• The Star Spangled Banner.
  

The lyrics of This Land is Your Land, written by a committed leftist, later accused of being a Communist, show that the patriotism in our country runs deeply, and well across political lines:

This Land Is Your Land

(link to lyric provider)

This land is your land This land is my land

From California to the New York island;

From the red wood forest to the Gulf Stream waters

This land was made for you and Me.

As I was walking that ribbon of highway,

I saw above me that endless skyway:

I saw below me that golden valley:

This land was made for you and me.

I've roamed and rambled and I followed my footsteps

To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts;

And all around me a voice was sounding:

This land was made for you and me.

When the sun came shining, and I was strolling,

And the wheat fields waving and the dust clouds rolling,

As the fog was lifting a voice was chanting:

This land was made for you and me.

As I went walking I saw a sign there

And on the sign it said "No Trespassing."

But on the other side it didn't say nothing,

That side was made for you and me.

In the shadow of the steeple I saw my people,

By the relief office I seen my people;

As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking

Is this land made for you and me?

Nobody living can ever stop me,

As I go walking that freedom highway;

Nobody living can ever make me turn back

This land was made for you and me

[Guest American Woman]

To me, it isn't a case of one or the other. Our two nations are bound together in ways most other countries aren't. My wife grew up in Minnisota and Alaska...born in NewfoundLand. My family occupies BC, Alberta, Ontario, Washington, Oregon, Montana, Idaho, Illinois and New York State. America has always been family. I'm sure the same is true for many Canadians.

This is true. It isn't the case of one or the other in my mind, either. It's the point I was trying to make when I said I would be at home in Canada, too. I've often said that Canada and the U.S. have a special relationship that no other 'neighbors' share-- and I've been mistaken for a Canadian often enough that I think I should be given honorary citizenship.

This land is your land, This land is my land,

From Bonavista, to Vancouver Island

From the Arctic Circle to the Great Lakes waters,

This land was made for you and me.

And thanks for the Dolly Parkins-Chet Atkins link-- I just listened to it and enjoyed waking up to such an upbeat version.

Edited July 6, 2008 by American Woman

[g_bambino]

Leave it to Canadians to flame someone who simply stated happy holiday, we're lucky to live where we do. So far, the list of retards consists of g_bambino, HisSelf, follwed closely by August1991. Way to make us all proud, retards! I really didn't want to comment this way, considering the theme of the thread. But some of you are head-shakingly stupid.

I think your definition of flaming is a little too broad and ill-defined.

[g_bambino]

As for your "four reserved nations, one loud one" observation, I can only respond with -- ?? Canada "reserved?" I don't think so. Canadians are hardly reserved. You let your emotions show/fly too.

But fyi, the opposite of "reserved" isn't "loud," and "reserved" isn't necessarily a positive trait. Americans aren't loud so much as they are exuberant, and that's a good thing. It's one of the things I like about us. It was contagious yesterday as strangers were all friendly to one another telling each other to get down and party and celebrate the Fourth-- even on a trip to the grocery store. We have fun, and it's natural for us to show it. That may come across to others as "loud," but seriously, I don't see why people see our exuberance as a negative trait-- and I'm glad I'm among the exuberant crowd rather than the crowd who would 'tsk tsk' it.

Well, I was only trying to summarise some very complex characteristics into a digestible couple of words. One could write entire volumes comparing the cultural traits of the different nations; unfortunately, for the purposes of posting here we seem to need to generalise. So, it's only out of the necessity for economy that I use sweeping terms like "loud" and "reserved" to describe the differences I see. Of course you're right that everyone has their loudness and their reservedness; it's only that - and again, I'm simplifying here - Americans, from my experiences abroad and here at home, seem to wear their patriotism on their sleeves and will express their opinions without reserve. That, obviously, isn't necessarily a bad thing, nor does it apply to absolutely everyone from the United States.

As for this observation: "...speaking from personal experience here, but in my travels I've seen that it's harder - not impossible, or even all that difficult, just harder than for the others - for Americans to fit in where Aussies, Canucks, Kiwis, and Brits so easily slide."

Americans for the most part aren't wanting/trying to "fit in;" they just want to be themselves. Granted, that's not always a good thing, but it's not always a bad thing the way it seems to be being portrayed by your post, either. It's just the way we are. Furthermore, I see plenty of people from other nations who aren't exactly "sliding" into the cultures they are actually moving to, and I see that in Canada, too. In fact, Canada promotes/celebrates that about itself as a nation-- it's diversity and tolerance to other cultures, does it not? So why is it seen as a negative when Americans don't "easily slide into" another culture?

I thought I was making myself clear when I said "I don't mean to sound disparaging." That was genuine; I purposely tried to just explain my personal observations without judgment of what was good or bad. Perhaps I failed. To explain further, though, I was really only speaking of situations where people from the four nations were together abroad; the anthropological observations I've made of the interactions between travellers in the bars and hostels I've been in around the world. It's only what I've happened to see, so I full well realise that what I say is in no way a concrete, scientific proof; my experiences may not have been the same for others, and there are exceptions even to my own limited knowledge. I've had some great nights out with Americans; an evening on a rooftop bar in Antigua, Guatemala, getting drunk and watching an erupting volcano with a couple from Virginia comes to mind... I also imagine that, if you feel you could make a good Canuck, you'd be one of the Americans who're easily absorbed into the groups of party-going travellers that inevitably form in the hostel lounge. Not such a bad thing.

[Smallc]

This is true. It isn't the case of one or the other in my mind, either. It's the point I was trying to make when I said I would be at home in Canada, too. I've often said that Canada and the U.S. have a special relationship that no other 'neighbors' share-- and I've been mistaken for a Canadian often enough that I think I should be given honorary citizenship.

This land is your land, This land is my land,

From Bonavista, to Vancouver Island

From the Arctic Circle to the Great Lakes waters,

This land was made for you and me.

And thanks for the Dolly Parkins-Chet Atkins link-- I just listened to it and enjoyed waking up to such an upbeat version.

Yes, we are extremely lucky. Don't pay any attention to the people who say otherwise. These are the same people that think a few problems in either of our countries suddenly make them bad. Its really quite sad that people think like that, but its the way many people are. I don't share that view.

[Shady]

These are the same people that think a few problems in either of our countries suddenly make them bad. Its really quite sad that people think like that, but its the way many people are.

Exactly. Reminds me of a famous political alliteration, the nattering nabobs of negativity. Suits them well.

[August1991]

Yes, we are extremely lucky. Don't pay any attention to the people who say otherwise. These are the same people that think a few problems in either of our countries suddenly make them bad. Its really quite sad that people think like that, but its the way many people are. I don't share that view.

Smallc, I'll use your post as a way to make my point to American Woman.

I'm not criticizing any problem at all in the US or Canada. I'm merely saying that millions (no billions) of people around the world are perfectly happy to live where they live and they have absolutely no desire to live in the US or Canada or Australia.

That's all.

AW, you noted above in this thread that I had somehow misinterpreted you or the "circle jerk" that followed. Well, let me be more explicit and quote you. This is what bothered me:

There's really four nations-- the US, Canada, the UK, and Australia-- that share our heritage, and while I've never been Down Under, I don't think that I'd make that great an Aussie, and while I've loved England, I don't think I'd make the world's best Brit either, but I sure am happy to be an American, and I know I'd make a damn fine Canadian, too.

There's really four nations?

Only four? Malta doesn't count?

Imagine that you wake up one morning and your partner/spouse/wife/husband criticizes you for choosing the house you did. "Higher up the hill," s/he says, "people have a nicer view." I walk by your home and chat with with you. You comment on the wonderful view from your home and I say, "Yes, we all have a wonderful view from our homes." And then you, for some reason, interpret my comment as agreement with your partner/spouse/wife/husband and as criticism of your choice of home?

I fear, American Woman, that my innocent remark that many people around the world are happy has somehow fallen into an internal American dispute. So, I'm perplexed. I admire you and your nation but I won't take sides in your family dispute.

Between Obama and McCain, Bush, McGovern, Nader, Ron Paul, Reagan, Clinton, Kennedy, Goldwater and Nixon - I have no real favourites. It's not my country. I admire what you do as a nation, and how you do it.

----

AW, do you want a true American criticsm? Well, let me criticise Americans. Like teenagers, they tend to think that the world revolves around them. In fact, like teenagers, Americans tend to be oblivious to anything other than themselves. They tend to direct the conversation to themselves.

To borrow an example, if you try to explain why you love May to an American, they answer that they love November and the next thing you know, you're talking about November - not May.

This thread is an example of my point. Americans are the white keys on a piano.

So it's only out of the necessity for economy that I use sweeping terms like "loud" and "reserved" to describe the differences I see. Of course you're right that everyone has their loudness and their reservedness; it's only that - and again, I'm simplifying here - Americans, from my experiences abroad and here at home, seem to wear their patriotism on their sleeves and will express their opinions without reserve. That, obviously, isn't necessarily a bad thing, nor does it apply to absolutely everyone from the United States.

Of course the British when abroad never get drunk, or wave the Union Jack. They are always quiet, polite, reserved and sobre when visiting foreign cities in Spain, Greece or when there's a football match.

Bambino, I really, really dislike this condescending, supercilious, smug British stereotype of loudmouth Americans. As if there were no loudmouth British yobs.

Edited July 6, 2008 by August1991

[g_bambino]

Bambino, I really, really dislike this condescending, supercilious, smug British stereotype of loudmouth Americans. As if there were no loudmouth British yobs.

I never said anything remotely close to what you accuse me of. So, if you dislike it, stop creating the insults that offend you.

[Guest American Woman]

Smallc, I'll use your post as a way to make my point to American Woman.

I'm not criticizing any problem at all in the US or Canada. I'm merely saying that millions (no billions) of people around the world are perfectly happy to live where they live and they have absolutely no desire to live in the US or Canada or Australia.

That's all.

And again, I never said otherwise. I asked you once to point out where I did, and rather than point it out, you just repeated your claim-- as if I'm in disagreement with it.

AW, do you want a true American criticsm?

Ummm. No. All I wanted was to point out, on the days we celebrate our nations, that we are quite lucky to have been born where we were born.

Well, let me criticise Americans. Like teenagers, they tend to think that the world revolves around them.

You mean the world doesn't revolve around us?

In fact, like teenagers, Americans tend to be oblivious to anything other than themselves. They tend to direct the conversation to themselves.

To borrow an example, if you try to explain why you love May to an American, they answer that they love November and the next thing you know, you're talking about November - not May.

This thread is an example of my point. Americans are the white keys on a piano.

Say what? If you say you like May and an American says they like November, they are just adding to the topic-- which is which month one likes. If the topic then becomes about November, you only have yourself to blame. It takes two to carry on a conversation, and if you allow the other side to be dominant, that's not them "acting like a teenager," but you being subservient.

As for "this thread being an example," huh: ?? Your response is what turned a thread of celebration of our nations into something other than what it was. Seems to me that makes you the "teenager" here.

[White Doors]

Yeah right. We are lucky.

How about those who sacrifice so we can be lucky?

Our luck is built on a jury-rigged system of international law controlled by the usual suspects.

How many people in Iraq feel lucky right now?

Screw you and your technologically enhanced weapons enriched luck.

Luck has nothing to do with it.

Change the title of your post to: "Are we powerful or what?"

bitter much?

btw, do you ever having anything to say of substance on here?

[White Doors]

Leave it to Canadians to flame someone who simply stated happy holiday, we're lucky to live where we do. So far, the list of retards consists of g_bambino, HisSelf, follwed closely by August1991. Way to make us all proud, retards! I really didn't want to comment this way, considering the theme of the thread. But some of you are head-shakingly stupid.

Agreed. Surprised at August though.

[Rue]

sorry just got around to it Yankeegal. Grateful yes. All you have to do is travel a bit to understand why. So cheers to you belatedly and you know I would be involved in any circlejerk with you anytime you imperialist running dog exploitative expansionist capitalist swine. I also am grateful for American women- well except Lindsay Lohan's girlfriend. What is with that.

[Guest American Woman]

sorry just got around to it Yankeegal. Grateful yes. All you have to do is travel a bit to understand why. So cheers to you belatedly and you know I would be involved in any circlejerk with you anytime you imperialist running dog exploitative expansionist capitalist swine. I also am grateful for American women- well except Lindsay Lohan's girlfriend. What is with that.

Alriiiight. This imperialist running dog exploitative expansionist capitalist swine is more than happy to have you in her circle jerk. I don't know who Lindsey Lohan's girlfriend is though, so sorry, can't help you there.

But yes, all one has to do is look around the world and, as you said, travel a bit to understand how fortunate we are and be grateful for what we have-- for what we were born into vs what we could have been born into.