Afghan Girl's 'Honour Killing' Sparks Debate in Germany

[scribblet]

I wonder how many of these acts it will take for the western world to realize that these acts will increase unless gov'ts take some action. The U.K. has already said this has happened at least 100 time there.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,358661,00.html

Afghan Girl's 'Honor Killing' Sparks Debate in Germany

Tuesday, May 27, 2008

The brutal "honor killing" of a 16-year-old Afghan immigrant by her brother has sparked a renewed debate in Germany over whether Islamic families can adapt to the social ways of the Western world.

The girl, Morsal Obeidi, was ambushed in the parking lot of a Hamburg McDonald's restaurant by her 23-year-old brother Ahmad, who stabbed the girl 20 times, Spiegel Online reported. Hamburg is home to more than 20,000 Afghan immigrants, the most of any European city, the Web site reported.

Morsal Obeidi had long struggled with a tug-of-war between her desire to live like her friends in Germany, and her family’s desire to preserve their Afghan lifestyle, the site reported.

Obeidi's arguments with her brother and father, over things like her appearance, smoking and drinking, often turned physical. She reportedly sought the protection of a child and youth welfare agency to escape the violence on more than one occasion.

Ahmed reportedly told police that he killed his sister because she had become too comfortable with Western life with her uncovered hair, makeup and short skirts.

..

Britain has seen more than 25 women killed by their Muslim relatives in the past decade for offenses they believed brought shame on the family. More than 100 other homicides are under investigation as potential honor killings.

U.K. and "honour killings"

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-06...orkilling_N.htm

[Peter F]

I wonder how many of these acts it will take for the western world to realize that these acts will increase unless gov'ts take some action. The U.K. has already said this has happened at least 100 time there.

What sort of Action should the govt take?

I think arresting the culprit for murder would be recommended. What do you think?

[guyser]

What sort of Action should the govt take?

I think arresting the culprit for murder would be recommended. What do you think?

Now there is a start.

Then a trial. Hopefully a conviction and jail.

Problem solved , well so far as it or any other murder would be.

[scribblet]

Pre-meditated murder should be life, without parole (or capital punishment )also if any of the family are found to be culpable for encouraging and egging him on because of some barbaric cultural custom, they should be thrown in jail too. Also, any mosque elders who would attempt to "teach" people to do this - then they should be deported to where they learned such barbaric customs.

The significance of this murder is that it is over religion or custom, brought to a chosen country. If people don't agree with the lifestyles and laws of a country they choose to move to, why come in the first place?

[DogOnPorch]

What sort of Action should the govt take?

I think arresting the culprit for murder would be recommended. What do you think?

Arrest the culprit, alright. Except in some culture's eyes, the girl is the culprit. You might recall a young woman getting viciously stoned by a large group of men while the police stood by and did nothing. Well, they probably just shot some short movies on their cell phones like the rest of the crowd.

Guilt is a rather subjective matter, I'd say.

---------------------------------------------

Brian: What will they do to me?

Ben the Prisoner: Oh you'll probably get away with crucifixion.

Brian: CRUCIFIXION?!!?

Ben the Prisoner: Yeah, first offense.

---Monty Python's Life of Brian

[Peter F]

Arrest the culprit, alright. Except in some culture's eyes, the girl is the culprit. You might recall a young woman getting viciously stoned by a large group of men while the police stood by and did nothing. Well, they probably just shot some short movies on their cell phones like the rest of the crowd.

Guilt is a rather subjective matter, I'd say.

Arrest everybody in the culture, then? Is that the action governments should take?

[M.Dancer]

Arrest everybody in the culture, then? Is that the action governments should take?

Not the individuals oin the culture, apprehend the culture itself.

But only if the culture is at fault. Cultures that, say promote and enable clitoral excization, suttee, bride burning, honour killings and other crimes against the sanctity of life and modern civilization should be in no way allowed to promote themselves.

In otherwords, mosques, temples, churches, associations etc etc.....should have health warnings placed conspicuously at entrances like the warnings on a deck of smokes, .or like those in bars warning that liquor and pregnacy is bad or warning those who enter that there are associated risks ......perhaps the copy could have artwork or graphics.....

[Peter F]

Not the individuals oin the culture, apprehend the culture itself.

But only if the culture is at fault. Cultures that, say promote and enable clitoral excization, suttee, bride burning, honour killings and other crimes against the sanctity of life and modern civilization should be in no way allowed to promote themselves.

In otherwords, mosques, temples, churches, associations etc etc.....should have health warnings placed conspicuously at entrances like the warnings on a deck of smokes, .or like those in bars warning that liquor and pregnacy is bad or warning those who enter that there are associated risks ......perhaps the copy could have artwork or graphics.....

How would one determine the culture to be at fault? What would be the means of identifying which culture is guilty of these crimes against the sanctity of life and modern civilization? We non-immigrant Canadians have a long history of committing these crimes against each other too, yknow in our bars and streets and houses and schools. We rape rob and murder along with the best of em.

How do we apprehend our own culture?

[M.Dancer]

How would one determine the culture to be at fault? What would be the means of identifying which culture is guilty of these crimes against the sanctity of life and modern civilization? We non-immigrant Canadians have a long history of committing these crimes against each other too, yknow in our bars and streets and houses and schools. We rape rob and murder along with the best of em.

How do we apprehend our own culture?

So are you saying that female circumcision....these crimes, bride burning, honour killings aren't cultural? We have along history of these crimes here? And there are insitutions that promote, endorse, enable those crimes?

You Weren't born in a fed. prison by any chance? I'm not aware of anyone in my circle that endorses honour killings etc etc....

[Peter F]

So are you saying that female circumcision....these crimes, bride burning, honour killings aren't cultural? We have along history of these crimes here? And there are insitutions that promote, endorse, enable those crimes?

You Weren't born in a fed. prison by any chance? I'm not aware of anyone in my circle that endorses honour killings etc etc....

Not at all. These crimes obviously do occur. We, in Canada at least, do indeed have a long history of murders and various other crimes too. Are the crimes us Canadians commit any less heinous than the crimes committed by other cultures?

You claim that other cultures (as yet only "Afghan" culture has been identified) endorse and encourage these crimes.

Which cultures do so? And how do we know those cultures do so?

In Canada people kill other people for various reasons: jealousy, drunkeness, money etc etc. It seems obvious to me that our culture somehow encourages such behaviour. Just like "afghan" culture encouraged - somehow - the brother to kill his sister because he felt dishonoured. Do the actions of a few allow us to label a culture dangerous? If so then Canada should be labeled a dangerous culture along with all the other dangerous cultures.

[Michael Hardner]

U.K. has already said this has happened at least 100 time there.

If you look at the article below this statement, it most definitely does not say that.

Why do all arguments against immigrants feel that they need to inflate their facts ? Are their arguments too weak ?

It seems that way to me.

[Borg]

Not like it has not happened before and it will happen again.

What's the problem?

The perpetrators are simply following their traditions

Borg

[Michael Hardner]

To add: And the people who want to "highlight" the problem, will make it priority #1, even if it happens once in ten years...

[Guest American Woman]

QUOTE: U.K. has already said this has happened at least 100 time there.

If you look at the article below this statement, it most definitely does not say that.

Why do all arguments against immigrants feel that they need to inflate their facts ? Are their arguments too weak ?

It seems that way to me.

Where are you getting that this is an "argument against immigrants?" The issue is honor killings. Honor killing is a serious problem worldwide, including the western world, and our governments need to be taking actions to deal with it. And while the article does not say it's happened at least 100 times in the U.K., it does say it's happened twenty five times and 100 more cases are under investigation as possible honor killings. Furthermore, reading up on the problem points out that statistics are "just the tip of the iceberg;" that it happens much more than statistics indicate.

Up to 17,000 women in Britain are being subjected to "honour" related violence, including murder, every year, according to police chiefs.

...the number of girls falling victim to forced marriages, kidnappings, sexual assaults, beatings and even murder by relatives intent on upholding the "honour" of their family is up to 35 times higher than official figures suggest.

Commander Steve Allen, head of ACPO's honour-based violence unit, says the true toll of people falling victim to brutal ancient customs is "massively unreported" and far worse than is traditionally accepted. link

A Sunday Telegraph investigation has established that honour killings are increasing rapidly in Britain.

At a conference in Southampton last week, police chiefs revealed that they are re-examining 2,000 deaths and-murders between 1996 and 2006 to establish whether they involve honour killings. link

So while the article originally cited stated that the U.K. said "100 cases are being investigated as honor killings" along with those reported as such, rather than there have been over 100 cases reported,' it most definitely happens a whole hellovalot more than "once in ten years." Why you'd minimize the issue with such an absurd example is difficult to understand.

Edited May 31, 2008 by American Woman

[Michael Hardner]

AW,

Where are you getting that this is an "argument against immigrants?" The issue is honor killings. Honor killing is a serious problem worldwide, including the western world, and our governments need to be taking actions to deal with it.

Because this type of story is pretty much always submitted as part of a discussion about inferior cultures, limiting immigration and so on.

And while the article does not say it's happened at least 100 times in the U.K., it does say it's happened twenty five times and 100 more cases are under investigation as possible honor killings. Furthermore, reading up on the problem points out that statistics are "just the tip of the iceberg;" that it happens much more than statistics indicate.

Up to 17,000 women in Britain are being subjected to "honour" related violence, including murder, every year, according to police chiefs.

...the number of girls falling victim to forced marriages, kidnappings, sexual assaults, beatings and even murder by relatives intent on upholding the "honour" of their family is up to 35 times higher than official figures suggest.

Commander Steve Allen, head of ACPO's honour-based violence unit, says the true toll of people falling victim to brutal ancient customs is "massively unreported" and far worse than is traditionally accepted. link

A Sunday Telegraph investigation has established that honour killings are increasing rapidly in Britain.

At a conference in Southampton last week, police chiefs revealed that they are re-examining 2,000 deaths and-murders between 1996 and 2006 to establish whether they involve honour killings. link

So while the article originally cited stated that the U.K. said "100 cases are being investigated as honor killings" along with those reported as such, rather than there have been over 100 cases reported,' it most definitely happens a whole hellovalot more than "once in ten years." Why you'd minimize the issue with such an absurd example is difficult to understand.

Your links are far more informative than the ones above, thanks.

[Army Guy]

Which cultures do so? And how do we know those cultures do so?

We already have such knowledge, most of it is proven fact and recorded...

In Canada people kill other people for various reasons: jealousy, drunkeness, money etc etc. It seems obvious to me that our culture somehow encourages such behaviour.

How does our current justice system encourage anyone to murder, rape etc ?....There is a punishment for each one, if you are found guilty then you will be imprisoned....If anything the punishment is to weak for the crimes, but still strong enough to give anyone a pause to think about , before doing it...

Just like "afghan" culture encouraged - somehow - the brother to kill his sister because he felt dishonoured. Do the actions of a few allow us to label a culture dangerous? If so then Canada should be labeled a dangerous culture along with all the other dangerous cultures.

Big difference between legal and illegal, and while our justice system here in canada has not stamped out all these crimes, it does say clearly that they are not tolerated..

[Peter F]

We already have such knowledge, most of it is proven fact and recorded...

How does our current justice system encourage anyone to murder, rape etc ?....There is a punishment for each one, if you are found guilty then you will be imprisoned....If anything the punishment is to weak for the crimes, but still strong enough to give anyone a pause to think about , before doing it...

Big difference between legal and illegal, and while our justice system here in canada has not stamped out all these crimes, it does say clearly that they are not tolerated..

Yes. Thats what we do here, and I presume in Germany also. Are we - or more specifically to the case at hand - the Germans doing something wrong here?

[Army Guy]

Perhaps the answer is in our immigration systems, either it is not being stressed enough, that old customs or laws from thier countries are not tolerated in our countries. And we are relying on our already over burdened justice system to be the catch all, after all ignorence of the law is not an excuse.

Perhaps we should be more selective in our immigration process, i'm not say ruling out entire cultures or races but take those that qualifiy on reasonable grounds. Meaning those that will not become a burden to our justice system or our tax payers....

[Peter F]

Certainly. I have no problem with that. Still, there is the problem of trying to predict who in the future will kill thier family members over perceptions of slighted honour. Not sure what kind of screening criteria will weed those people out.

[Fortunata]

Personally I like the idea of assimilation instead of multiculturalism. They say assimilation happens with the second generation but not always and that first generation can really cause havoc.

[eyeball]

Personally I like the idea of assimilation instead of multiculturalism. They say assimilation happens with the second generation but not always and that first generation can really cause havoc.

I think its probably best that we just treat murder for what it is and drop all the cultural pretext. That said however, the high murder rate in the US and how often the word culture as in gun-culture springs to mind. Given that many Americans are now third to fourth and more generations assimilation in this unique melting pot appears to be 'working'. To the minds of many Americans havoc would be gun control or the apprehension as Morris put it, of the culture itself.

To me assimilation is to multiculturalism as simplification is to diversity. Humans evolved to live in a natural world rich with diversity, not in a corn field. Likewise, I think humans will evolve into better more successful beings in a diverse social environment.

[capricorn]

I think its probably best that we just treat murder for what it is and drop all the cultural pretext.

That would be fine but there are some who absolutely need to place a stamp on everything individuals do that is contrary to what is acceptable societal behaviour, like robbery, assault or murder. For example, an individual committed this or that crime because:

1. he/she was raised in poverty

2. he/she was abused as a child

3. he/she suffers from the disorder "insert name/description here"

4. he/she acted as a result of peer pressure,

etc.

It's true that one or more factors could be at play in some cases and the result is the commission of a crime. Perps and their lawyers have been so successful in advancing these defenses that the actual crime(s) committed become secondary in our justice system. Why would murder for cultural reasons be any different? All that is needed is one case successfully argued and accepted by the courts that "culture" led to a heinous act and voila, a murder that would not have occurred had "culture" not been an issue. The result? Lenient sentences.

[eyeball]

That would be fine but there are some who absolutely need to place a stamp on everything individuals do that is contrary to what is acceptable societal behaviour, like robbery, assault or murder. For example, an individual committed this or that crime because:

1. he/she was raised in poverty

2. he/she was abused as a child

3. he/she suffers from the disorder "insert name/description here"

4. he/she acted as a result of peer pressure,

etc.

It's true that one or more factors could be at play in some cases and the result is the commission of a crime. Perps and their lawyers have been so successful in advancing these defenses that the actual crime(s) committed become secondary in our justice system. Why would murder for cultural reasons be any different? All that is needed is one case successfully argued and accepted by the courts that "culture" led to a heinous act and voila, a murder that would not have occurred had "culture" not been an issue. The result? Lenient sentences.

Some perps and their lawyers have been successful in advancing these defenses sometimes in our justice system. Unfortunately there are people who absolutely insist that all crimes be treated in a mandatory fashion that minimizes, ignores and even denies the existance of contributing factors. I think a more diverse approach to justice will benefit society in the long run. Identifying and acknowledging these factors lets us deal with them in the hope that doing so will reduce the number of crimes being committed. If it can be proven that cultural and religous beliefs can be a factor that contributes to murder we should accept that fact and deal with that.

Its been proven that most politicians are unwilling to touch religion and culture with a ten foot pole but thankfully we still have a constitution and justice system to fall back on.