Steyn on the future of Western society

[DogOnPorch]

Salon owner ordered to pay $8,000 over headscarf snub

A Canadian hair salon owner who refused to hire a Muslim stylist in a headscarf has been ordered by a British tribunal to pay roughly $8,000 in damages.

Sarah Desrosiers, who is originally from Windsor, Ont., had argued the stylist wasn't a good fit at her trendy salon in London, England, because she needs her employees to show off their funky hairstyles. Desrosiers, who moved to Europe a decade ago, said her stylists are essentially modelling their own haircuts for their clients....

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/06/17/salon-scarf.html

You tell me...

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That'll replace the whale in me dreams...

---The Simpsons

[White Doors]

I'm working from the excerpt which appeared in Maclean's which provided no such supporting evidence.

So you have an issue with the excerpt, but not Steyn?

[jbg]

I'm working from the excerpt which appeared in Maclean's which provided no such supporting evidence.

I think that people should stop "working from" an attitude that any effort by the West to preserve itself is in itself wrong.

[BubberMiley]

I think that people should stop "working from" an attitude that any effort by the West to preserve itself is in itself wrong.

I think that people should stop using the delusion that the West is at risk of becoming extinct in order to spread fear and war.

[jbg]

I think that people should stop using the delusion that the West is at risk of becoming extinct in order to spread fear and war.

I do not wish to violate Godwin's Law, but that kind of reasoning is as dangerous now as in 1938. Perhaps more so.

[Rue]

You tell me...

------------------------------------

That'll replace the whale in me dreams...

---The Simpsons

Well in the specific example of a Muslim woman who wants to wear her traditional hair cover but work in a hair salon where hairdressers own hairstyles are an important marketing tool to advertise the kind of styles they give their clients, its a very specific context where I personally believe with due respect to that young Muslim woman she is being unrealistic and naive, but I also think the hair salon aint exactly on the level either suggesting having but one Muslim woman with the traditional garb is going to negatively effect their business.

I think there is a lot of other shit going on as to both sides of that story and the story the press ran is not the full picture at all as to the real dispute underneath the alleged dispute. It could be the Muslim woman was insulted and used the tribunal to make a point about being insulted and never really wanted to work at the salon or force her way in there but felt she was the subject of a slur she should stand up to. It could be the salon was concerned that the Muslim girl was too straight and conservative and would not have fit in well with its clientel and staff who for all we know are a bunch of burping, grunting Amy Winehouses and Boy Georges. It could be their concern has nothing to do with her being Muslim and everything to do with her refusing to burp or fart.

So no please do not ask me to take that incident, pull it out of context, then use it to make generalizes about all Muslims being unreasonable. Just too many what ifs and yah buts to that story to make any assumptions from it.

I do not doubt some Muslims are fundamentalist and intolerant and are only interested in having their own beliefs protected and taken care of and will milk the system to justify being intolerant of all others but the last time I looked it wasn't just Muslims or ALL Muslims doing that just some that seem to get everyone's attention and that is probably because the vast majority of Muslims are too busy working and not trying to do anything other then pay their friggin bills like the rest of us.

Now mind you if any man with a beard tries to tell me to do anything, he had better watch out. I hate any man with a beard who claims to be righteous.

I also have had students over the years who wore traditional Muslim garb and were very open minded and funny and damn cute too and were anything but prudes or intolerant. Then again I knew some others that were very angry. I could say that about virtually anyone though. Not so sure if that was particular to Muslim women or just humans in general including myself when I don't eat enough prunes. Muslim men on the other hand, for me have the same problem I have with all men-we can smell. We need to shower more and cut our toe nails and nose hair and stuff like that.

To me the greatest challenge to Western society is men with unsightly nose or ear hair and body odour. Those are scurges we need to stamp put.

Edited June 26, 2008 by Rue

[Michael Hardner]

j,

I think that people should stop "working from" an attitude that any effort by the West to preserve itself is in itself wrong.

What is 'the West' though ? Isn't it a system of arranging a country so that people can pursue happiness ?

And doesn't it 'preserve itself' by inviting people to take part in that system, by drawing the best and the brightest to a place where they can succeed ?

I'm not sure what you're proposing but the West has never preserved itself by cutting itself off.

[DogOnPorch]

Well in the specific example of a Muslim woman who wants to wear her traditional hair cover but work in a hair salon where hairdressers own hairstyles are an important marketing tool to advertise the kind of styles they give their clients, its a very specific context where I personally believe with due respect to that young Muslim woman she is being unrealistic and naive, but I also think the hair salon aint exactly on the level either suggesting having but one Muslim woman with the traditional garb is going to negatively effect their business.

I think there is a lot of other shit going on as to both sides of that story and the story the press ran is not the full picture at all as to the real dispute underneath the alleged dispute. It could be the Muslim woman was insulted and used the tribunal to make a point about being insulted and never really wanted to work at the salon or force her way in there but felt she was the subject of a slur she should stand up to. It could be the salon was concerned that the Muslim girl was too straight and conservative and would not have fit in well with its clientel and staff who for all we know are a bunch of burping, grunting Amy Winehouses and Boy Georges. It could be their concern has nothing to do with her being Muslim and everything to do with her refusing to burp or fart.

So no please do not ask me to take that incident, pull it out of context, then use it to make generalizes about all Muslims being unreasonable. Just too many what ifs and yah buts to that story to make any assumptions from it.

I do not doubt some Muslims are fundamentalist and intolerant and are only interested in having their own beliefs protected and taken care of and will milk the system to justify being intolerant of all others but the last time I looked it wasn't just Muslims or ALL Muslims doing that just some that seem to get everyone's attention and that is probably because the vast majority of Muslims are too busy working and not trying to do anything other then pay their friggin bills like the rest of us.

Now mind you if any man with a beard tries to tell me to do anything, he had better watch out. I hate any man with a beard who claims to be righteous.

I also have had students over the years who wore traditional Muslim garb and were very open minded and funny and damn cute too and were anything but prudes or intolerant. Then again I knew some others that were very angry. I could say that about virtually anyone though. Not so sure if that was particular to Muslim women or just humans in general including myself when I don't eat enough prunes. Muslim men on the other hand, for me have the same problem I have with all men-we can smell. We need to shower more and cut our toe nails and nose hair and stuff like that.

To me the greatest challenge to Western society is men with unsightly nose or ear hair and body odour. Those are scurges we need to stamp put.

To me she's just yet another example of how the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Islam as a religion...(being the last word on everything and btw, you infidels are all going to hell)...is rather @#%&* squeaky as far as religious/political movements go. My solution would be to open my own hair shop. But, that's just my old school approach to problems.

As far as male body odor goes...try a New York taxi cab. Betcha he wasn't born in Yonkers, either.

What is 'the West' though ? Isn't it a system of arranging a country so that people can pursue happiness ?

And doesn't it 'preserve itself' by inviting people to take part in that system, by drawing the best and the brightest to a place where they can succeed ?

I'm not sure what you're proposing but the West has never preserved itself by cutting itself off.

As Mr al-Gaddafi so tactfully said not too long ago...

We have four million Muslims in Albania. There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe – without swords, without guns, without conquests. The fifty million Muslims of Europe will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades. Europe is in a predicament, and so is America. They should agree to become Islamic in the course of time, or else declare war on the Muslims.

...it won't be Islam's new Dark Age. Where's Chuckie Martel when yah need 'em?

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It was under one of their ablest and most renowned commanders, with a veteran army, and with every apparent advantage of time, place, and circumstance, that the Arabs made their great effort at the conquest of Europe north of the Pyrenees.

---Edward Shepherd Creasy

Edited June 27, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[Wilber]

Wonder if this decision will jamb a stick into the tribunal's spokes.

Link

[DogOnPorch]

Wonder if this decision will jamb a stick into the tribunal's spokes.

Link

It should...but somehow it's a lot like these forums. Lose your battle in one thread? Start another...make them argue the case all over again.

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These days, the Left advances its causes more effectively through the courts than through elections, for the fairly obvious reason that very few people are dumb enough to vote for this stuff.

---Mark Steyn

[jbg]

Wonder if this decision will jamb a stick into the tribunal's spokes.

Link

That decision is a real ray of sunlight for your country.

Mazel Tov!!!

It should...but somehow it's a lot like these forums. Lose your battle in one thread? Start another...make them argue the case all over again.

No principal of stare decisis, or following precedent in Canada?

Edited June 29, 2008 by jbg

[Wilber]

That decision is a real ray of sunlight for your country.

Agreed, I hate to think of the consequences if it had gone the other way. I am often critical of the Supremes but I applaud them on this one.

[Black Dog]

I think that people should stop "working from" an attitude that any effort by the West to preserve itself is in itself wrong.

I can haz citation?

I do not wish to violate Godwin's Law, but that kind of reasoning is as dangerous now as in 1938. Perhaps more so.

Pardon my language and my formatting but: BULLSHIT!

There's no comparison to be made between the menace of Nazism, which united a fanatical destructive ideology firmly rooted in the modern era with industrial might and wealth and (by your own words) a scattered offshoot of a primitive religious ideology that thrives on poverty and ignorance.

For a deadly expansionist and existential threat, radical Islam has achieved sweet F.A.

[White Doors]

BULLSHIT!

cite?

[Black Dog]

cite?

Link.

[DogOnPorch]

lol..you tell me...

POLICE sniffer dogs trained to spot terrorists at railway stations may no longer come into contact with Muslim passengers – after complaints that it is against the suspects’ religion.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/256828

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/50071/...-offend-Muslims

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/generalnews..._at_station.php

MUSLIMS will be searched by sniffer dogs despite religious objections, say police.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10...say-police.html

A POLICE force apologised to Muslims yesterday over ads featuring a German shepherd puppy.

The cute photo of force pup Rebel was used on posters promoting a new phone number for non-emergency calls.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/42669...rry-to-Muslims/

What's a dog to do? Squeaky, squeaky wheels...most annoying. Where's that WD40?

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...my relegion does not allow me to come into contact with bombs; sniff everyone and let us all be equal!

---Jayne (comment on story)

[White Doors]

Link.

lol

[HisSelf]

Very sad to come back to this thread and see that it is still about "Muslims".

There are hundreds of millions of very peaceful Moslems in India, Indonesia, Morocco, Malaysia, Canada, the US.... In fact everwhere...

And yet so much focus is constantly put on those who have been radicalized by regimes that none of us would tolerate, even for a minute: The Shah (US backed), the Taliban (US created), Hezbollah (Israeli response), Hamas (Israeli response)...

After two hundred years of western meddling in Central Asia and the Middle East, many still do not have a friggin clue. I doubt there is one in one hundred who knows who Mossadeq was. So sad. Too bad.

[M.Dancer]

Speaking of detectives in search of clues....

6 statements of fact, not one correct.

And Mossadeq was an anti democratic fascist, something that most fringe leftists either don't know or won't admit.

[DogOnPorch]

Very sad to come back to this thread and see that it is still about "Muslims".

There are hundreds of millions of very peaceful Moslems in India, Indonesia, Morocco, Malaysia, Canada, the US.... In fact everwhere...

And yet so much focus is constantly put on those who have been radicalized by regimes that none of us would tolerate, even for a minute: The Shah (US backed), the Taliban (US created), Hezbollah (Israeli response), Hamas (Israeli response)...

After two hundred years of western meddling in Central Asia and the Middle East, many still do not have a friggin clue. I doubt there is one in one hundred who knows who Mossadeq was. So sad. Too bad.

The Shah was actually UK/USSR backed (1941)...but who's counting? His father was a Nazi supporter due to Germany's close economic ties with Persia before the war. Good thing someone meddled as the Soviet Union would have been hard pressed to face Axis offensives from the south as well as from the west. Mossadeq is pretty standard fare in Middle East 101 history. Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorist groups which terrorize their own people as well as Israel. The Taliban were born out of the Mujahideen so it isn't very accurate to say the US created the Taliban. Just so you know, the Mujahideen were around before the US decided to arm them with modern weapons.

Pat yourself on the back, however, for being so darn smug. It is no doubt that this thread is about Islam/Muslims as it is regarding Mark Steyn's book on that very subject. There are indeed a vast number of non-radical Muslims all around the world, however, they aren't the ones causing the problems in the West. Some of the squeaky-wheel activities are akin to me going to Saudi Arabia and opening a pork store and then wondering why everyone is mad at me. So grab a clue yourself.

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Good for youuuuuuu.

---South Park

Edited July 9, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[jbg]

Very sad to come back to this thread and see that it is still about "Muslims".

Go here (link) for more on my answer to that question.

There are hundreds of millions of very peaceful Moslems in India, Indonesia, Morocco, Malaysia, Canada, the US.... In fact everwhere...

I'm quite sure most Muslims individually are peaceful, decent people; who meekly do what their "leaders" tell them to do. That doesn't get them out of misery, grinding poverty, illiteracy, superstition and participation in senseless battles.

And yet so much focus is constantly put on those who have been radicalized by regimes that none of us would tolerate, even for a minute: The Shah (US backed), the Taliban (US created), Hezbollah (Israeli response), Hamas (Israeli response)...

After two hundred years of western meddling in Central Asia and the Middle East, many still do not have a friggin clue. I doubt there is one in one hundred who knows who Mossadeq was. So sad. Too bad.

And the US/Israel is somehow responsible for this horror (Link to article).

July 7, 2008

Bomber Near Pakistani Mosque Kills at Least 11

By JOEL ELLIOTT

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — At least 11 people died Sunday when a suicide bomber set off an explosion next to a group of police officers guarding an area near the Red Mosque, where a restive crowd had gathered to commemorate a deadly clash between Islamic militants and government security forces in July 2007, the authorities said.

More than 22 people were wounded, doctors at a nearby hospital said. Most of the dead and wounded appeared to be police officers.

About 30 officers had been standing on a sidewalk near a police station, just a few hundred yards from the Red Mosque in the center of Islamabad, when the explosion occurred. Thousands of people were at the mosque to commemorate an eight-day siege there a year ago that ended when commandos stormed the sprawling complex before dawn on July 10. Security forces and Islamic militants armed with automatic weapons, rocket launchers and grenades battled for an entire day in that confrontation, which left more than 100 people dead.

Within minutes of the suicide bombing on Sunday, which occurred about 7:30 p.m., medics were rushing dozens of wounded people to nearby hospitals and thousands of worshipers were fleeing the area near the mosque.

People running from the scene dodged police barricades, which had been set up as part of the tight security for the commemoration. Some were crying and some were wounded, and they left shoes and trails of blood on the sidewalks. Medics picked up body parts from the pavement.

Zafar Yab Ahmad, who lives nearby, said it appeared that the bomber had intentionally detonated the explosives near the group of police officers, who were part of a large security detail.

“I was standing with my niece,” Mr. Ahmad said. “We were saying, ‘Why are there so many police officers standing down there?’ And I went inside and just as I entered, the bomb went off. I came back out and saw 7 to 10 bodies lying on the ground. Some were in uniform and some were in pieces.”

(snip)