I am not Jewish but I admire the State of Israel

[August1991]

Israelis are celebrating the 60th anniversary of the founding of their State so we are hearing about this now. But a celebration, or an admiration, of Israel hardly needs an anniversary.

Years ago, I spent a week or so (at my own expense) in Israel. I arrived on bus from Jordan by the Allenby Bridge and I left by bus to Egypt across the Suez Canal. I preferred Tel Aviv to Jerusalem but I liked Haifa best of all. Jerusalem is a divided city, like Montreal, but its division is uncivilized. Tel Aviv is a real city where people live. Haifa is a wonderful place on the Mediterranean. I thought then and I still think: why can't Israelis have some peace and get on with dealing with the complicated problems of making a society work when so many people come from so many places. (In Tel Aviv, a Jewish bus driver spoke in a New York accent and in Haifa, a camera shop clerk spoke to me in irritating Parisian French.)

Israel is a multicultural state. And those who oppose multiculturalism (ie. Mark Steyn) really misunderstand the idea.

If we are to succeed as a species, our States must be multicultural. We must manage our affairs in such a way that many people who have different habits can live together peacefully and in a civilized manner. The State can impose an official language, but it should not impose an official "culture".

A modern civilized state is multicultural but perhaps most of all, a modern civilized state protects as much as possible an individual's freedom to choose. In the 21st century, we must defend the ideals of the Enlightenment.

Israel is a multicultural State but perhaps most of all, in Israel, individuals are free to choose. This freedom is so modern and so precious, we must defend it like a small flower. Too many in the West take it for granted.

As a Westerner, I felt perfectly at home in Tel Aviv or Haifa in a way that I never did in Damascus or Amman. Only Beirut offered something similar to Israel's freedom - and even Beirut had some obscurantist intrigue hanging over the discussion.

In simple terms, Israel is the Renaissance and the Enlightenment in the Middle East. We Westerners must defend now more than ever the ideas of Galileo and Voltaire.

----

In some circles, Israel is descibed as a Jewish or Zionist State. If I understand properly, about 80% of Israeli citizens are Jewish while 20% are Muslim or Christian or "something else". I don't care. How did these people get the land where they live? I really don't care. (Israel was invaded in 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973.)

I have two ideas about all of this.

First, I think that we in the West must promote and protect democratic, multicultural, civilized societies around the world. I think we should ostracize dictatorships. Israel is not a dictatorship. Israel is on our side.

Second, life is for the living and successful people think of the future - not the past. I think that if Israel is a successful society, it is because many Jewish people have found within themselves the ability to turn a page and look rather to the future. That is where our children and our grandchildren will live.

[sharkman]

Second, life is for the living and successful people think of the future - not the past. I think that if Israel is a successful society, it is because many Jewish people have found within themselves the ability to turn a page and look rather to the future. That is where our children and our grandchildren will live.

I tend to agree with most of your thoughts, which brings me to this statement above. It seems to me the Palestinians prefer to think of the past and this thinking has been inbred to such an extent their society is in ruins, and they have nothing except the past. What a pity.

Yet Israel, nor the rest of the world, should be made to fix the mess that the Palestinians brought on themselves. If they had put their backs into it as Israel did since 1948, they could have had a country to be proud of by now. They certainly had a sympathetic ear in 1948, if they had used this to their advantage to build a new country instead of using it to only attack Israel, their outcome would have been far different. Now they send their women to kill with bombs. How pathetic.

[eyeball]

I think we should ostracize dictatorships.

Its a little late for that given all the dictatorships we've backed in the Middle East.

Israel is on our side.

Given the recent searing experience that many Israelies had with dictatorships perhaps they should have known better than to side with someone who's supported dictators in their region. I bet if Israel had spoken out loudly against the oppression that the West has helped finance in the ME Israel might have more friends there. Unfortunately their silence seems to have worked against them.

The same goes for many Palestinians.

[HisSelf]

I once entered Israel passing over the Allenby bridge. With my Canadian passport, I got an easy walk. My Palestinian companion had to wait 3 hours and during the inspection had to undress competely and pull her blue jeans through a brass ring having the diameter of a hockey puck. During this process she was called a cockroach.

Israel is a democracy if you are a Jew. Otherwise, you are nothing but a poster child for how Israel is a democracy.

[sharkman]

One third hand incident does not illustrate anything. Israel has to do these things since some of your Palestinian companion's nationals will do just about anything to bring explosives into Israel. What is Israel to do, let in everyone without seaching so as to not offend anyone? And let Israelis get blown up by the busload?

The fault for these searches lies completely with the terrorist Palestinians, and the peace loving Palestinians have to pay. Any state would do the same thing, including Canada. That Israel has thrived under such circumstances is amazing, and a sign that she is doing the right thing.

[HisSelf]

One third hand incident does not illustrate anything. Israel has to do these things since some of your Palestinian companion's nationals will do just about anything to bring explosives into Israel.

So if you put on a uniform and buy a helicopter or a tank you can put explosives anywhere you want?

[bush_cheney2004]

So if you put on a uniform and buy a helicopter or a tank you can put explosives anywhere you want?

No....rotary wing aircraft and tanks have limited range.

[HisSelf]

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[bush_cheney2004]

Israel is a democracy if you are a Jew. Otherwise, you are nothing but a poster child for how Israel is a democracy.

But Israel is still a democracy.

[August1991]

I once entered Israel passing over the Allenby bridge. With my Canadian passport, I got an easy walk. My Palestinian companion had to wait 3 hours and during the inspection had to undress competely and pull her blue jeans through a brass ring having the diameter of a hockey puck. During this process she was called a cockroach.

Israel is a democracy if you are a Jew. Otherwise, you are nothing but a poster child for how Israel is a democracy.

I wasn't called a cockroach but I was given a close examination when I entered Israel too. Sharkman above explains why the Israeli military must be careful with anyone arriving from surrounding countries. (BTW, have you crossed any other borders in the Middle East? At least Israel's borders are professionally manned.)

There have been Israeli Arab members of the Knesset since the first Knesset elections in 1949. The following is a list of the fifty-nine past and present members.

Wikipedia

Perhaps you will say that these Knesset members are mere window dressing but it's a striking fact that Arabs enjoy more of the benefits of democracy in Israel than in any surrounding country with the possible exception of Lebanon. With time, Iraqi society may become something similar to Lebanon.

In Syria, the president of a dictator who massacred his own people by destroying the center of a major city. Mubarak is on his way to being the longest reigning dictator in the world. In Jordan, the king is a benevolent dictator who cannot be criticized ever for anything. (Imagine if Stephen Harper or George W. Bush enjoyed such a status.)

In Israel, within a few minutes sitting in a cafe, you are bound to hear every possible opinion expressed about the current PM. Public debate is lively, controversial but always civilized.

I bet if Israel had spoken out loudly against the oppression that the West has helped finance in the ME Israel might have more friends there.

Eyeball, do you really hate the West that much? Yet, you yourself are a complete product of the West. It is as if you hate yourself. (Make no mistake Eyeball, if you travelled anywhere in the world, people would immediately identify you as a Westerner because of your beliefs in individualism, freedom and scientific thought.)

----

To return to my OP, we in the West must think hard about what values we want to defend in this world and in the future. By raising victimhood to an ideology, the Left promotes regimes that are antithetical to the Enlightenment tradition.

Edited May 11, 2008 by August1991

[eyeball]

Eyeball, do you really hate the West that much?

No, I'm just not proud of the support that Western governments have given to dictatorships.

Yet, you yourself are a complete product of the West.

No, I'm a product of my parents, Earthlings like me.

It is as if you hate yourself.

Not at all.

(Make no mistake Eyeball, if you travelled anywhere in the world, people would immediately identify you as a Westerner because of your beliefs in individualism, freedom and scientific thought.)

And they would hate me for this? I highly doubt it. If anyone did I'd probably conclude its because they were conservative people. Individualism, freedom and scientific thought are just as often as antithetical to conservative thinking as any other dogmatic ideology, political party or country. More to the point however, these upset the establishments that run them which means its more about the people in them, not the ideology or political party etc.

To return to my OP, we in the West must think hard about what values we want to defend in this world and in the future. By raising victimhood to an ideology, the Left promotes regimes that are antithetical to the Enlightenment tradition.

Give me a break, conservatives constantly place their own victimhood on the alter of ideology, especially when it comes to defending their values. Lets start a list;

1) Marriage... "It's under attack..."

2) Religion... "It's under attack..."

3) Taxes... "We're being robbed..."

4) Mutli-culturalism... "We're under attack..."

5) The free-market... "Its under attack..."

It goes on and on and on...the West promotes regimes that are antithetical to justice, fairness, equality, democracy etc etc. Shall I start a list?

This is not to say the West hasn't promoted these good things too, its just that bad will undermines goodwill much easier than goodwill overcomes bad. Surely you can understand this by looking at something like the market and how hard it is for a company to woo disenchanted former customers away from new companies.

[sharkman]

Eyeball, do you really hate the West that much? Yet, you yourself are a complete product of the West. It is as if you hate yourself. (Make no mistake Eyeball, if you travelled anywhere in the world, people would immediately identify you as a Westerner because of your beliefs in individualism, freedom and scientific thought.)

----

To return to my OP, we in the West must think hard about what values we want to defend in this world and in the future. By raising victimhood to an ideology, the Left promotes regimes that are antithetical to the Enlightenment tradition.

I agree with this entirely. I don't understand why Eyeball thinks one can compare the Left's support of regimes that are antithetical to Enlighternment to the Right's values. The Left's position on those values make the only sense, they have tossed marriage, replaced religion with environmentalism, and tend to view the free market as the devil.

BTW, Eyeball, your signature statement about being proud about ones country is mystifying to me. What's wrong with being proud of your country? Every people have qualities to be proud of. And this ignores the people in a country who have chosen it above all others to live in - immigrants.

[JB Globe]

I tend to agree with most of your thoughts, which brings me to this statement above. It seems to me the Palestinians prefer to think of the past and this thinking has been inbred to such an extent their society is in ruins, and they have nothing except the past. What a pity.

Considering that current factors (ie - the Occupation, in-fighting between Hamas and Fatah) have obliterated any sense of a hopeful future, it's not surprising that Palestinians have latched onto the past. It's the only way they have to maintain their identity in the face of decades of various forms of oppression. Quite frankly, I think any group would do the same if it had the same limited set of options the Palestinians have.

[JB Globe]

Perhaps you will say that these Knesset members are mere window dressing but it's a striking fact that Arabs enjoy more of the benefits of democracy in Israel than in any surrounding country with the possible exception of Lebanon.

The thing is though, I tend to not compare Israel's behavior to the bad behaviour of dictatorships, even if they are in the region. I tend to compare Israel's behaviour to the good behaviour of other democracies, I believe that's a better goalpost than Syria.

I believe that the situation of Muslim Israelis, Felashim, Russian immigrants, and others in Israel illustrate has a long, long way to go before it catches up with the US, Canada or Europe in terms of extending its democratic rights to all citizens. I could care less if it's "better than Syria" - because that should be a given if your a nation that proclaims itself to be a democratic state.

[Oleg Bach]

Considering that current factors (ie - the Occupation, in-fighting between Hamas and Fatah) have obliterated any sense of a hopeful future, it's not surprising that Palestinians have latched onto the past. It's the only way they have to maintain their identity in the face of decades of various forms of oppression. Quite frankly, I think any group would do the same if it had the same limited set of options the Palestinians have.

What's to admire in Israel other than the historic value and the beautiful landscape? Like I said earlier...IF you have to factions in the same area and you give aid to one and none to speak of to the other - then palistine becomes the subjugated labouring slave to Israel--- and to think the Jews are so enamoured about being let out of slavery by good old Moses...I guess that it's OK to get cheap labour out of Palistine.... Your admiration for Israels tonacity is understandable - but 60 years of sheer stuborness - paranoia and self centredness may not be something to be proud of - IT'S ABOUT MONEY...GIVE TO PALISTINE WHAT WE GIVE TO ISRAEL AND ALL WILL BE FINE..."I am not Jewish but I admire the State of Israel" Talk about looking at the Jews in a stero-typical manner - why even mention that you are not a Jew...sounds like you are pandering..that last thing Israel needs are more enablers and pandering...they need to be told to be fair with their Palistinian brothers...but..maybe the cheap Jewish thing does have merit? Talk about stero-typical --oooh did I mention that the Scotts are cheap also - it is said that the Scotts are one of the last tribes - great judges and lawyers>

[M.Dancer]

I believe that the situation of Muslim Israelis, Felashim, Russian immigrants, and others in Israel illustrate has a long, long way to go before it catches up with the US, Canada or Europe in terms of extending its democratic rights to all citizens. I could care less if it's "better than Syria" - because that should be a given if your a nation that proclaims itself to be a democratic state.

You are behind oin the news, all israeli citizens have democratic rights....russians, arabs, druze, christians....

[Rue]

I once entered Israel passing over the Allenby bridge. With my Canadian passport, I got an easy walk. My Palestinian companion had to wait 3 hours and during the inspection had to undress competely and pull her blue jeans through a brass ring having the diameter of a hockey puck. During this process she was called a cockroach.

Israel is a democracy if you are a Jew. Otherwise, you are nothing but a poster child for how Israel is a democracy.

I question the authenticity of your above story which is designed to incite hatred. Even if it were true which I personally doubt, how does it prove what you contend? You take an alleged individual incident and then ask people to make negative general assumptions based on it. In fact you exploit your alleged girlfriend's treatment to advance your political agenda.

Here is why I have problems with what you said. First of all I have been through the Allenby bridge countless times with many Palestinians. The IDF is not stupid enough to engage in open bad behaviour with any foreigner it thinks could be a journalist or is not Israeli.

That aside, I know exactly what the procedures are when people are strip searched. A woman soldier (and they are all young, i.e., 18, 19, 20) takes the woman to the side and if they ask them to take their clothes off they search them by hand. The brass ring you refer to the diameter of a hocky puck is absolute bull.

What they look for is not just weapons, but drugs, or any false documents being smuggled or tiny tubes or viles that could contain viruses or germs or believe it or not excessive amounts of money.

Those of us who have witnessed these strip searches know Palestinians can get upset and swear and yell back and resist abd its usually another Palestinian that helps calm them down or another Israeli soldier intervening so the one being yelled at does not get caught up in the screaming.

Why? Well what this person does not tell you is the IDF is trained that a Palestinian yelling and putting up a fuss could be a distraction for someone else trying to slip through.

Is it possible a soldier calls someone a cockroach who calls them a facist pig. Its quite possible but there is always a context.

In the one presented above the reason why I do not buy it, is because the alleged witness did not present the full context just a very selective black and white incident. if such an incident happened something happened before and after the incident.

As for the reference to the hockey puck sounds like someone trying to incite a Canadian with a Canadian reference to me. Also sounds like someone trying to refer to something we think could be true since when we go to airports we are asked to place our luggage through a metal square to determine its appropriate size.

On the Allenby Bridge as is the case in numerous other check-points, using such a device would only cause distractions from the real exercise which is watching the eye movement and body movement of not just Palestinians but anyone crossing.

I myself was strip searched numerous times. Some of the soldiers were grouches, others quite nice. Likewise some Palestinians were not happy others quite resigned to the process and are used to it not just by Israeli soldiers but from Jordanian soldiers and the PLO and the terror cells such as Islamic Jihad.

Also I was at a checkpoint when they found an allegedly pregnant woman trying to smuggle in weapons and another drugs. I also witnessed the detention of an elderly man in his 70's carrying hundreds of fake passports.

As for what happens within Israel proper, the laws of Israel are public domain. The system which allows non Jewish Israelis the right to vote their own people into the Knesset, allow them equal treatment and access in the courts, the hospitals, the schools, is far different then what is afforded non Muslims in the rest of the Middle East and the above poster knows it.

I will say it again. Israel is a tiny state under constant threat of terror. As a result it is in a permanent state of security lock down. What this means is, if you are a citizen whether you are Jewish, Muslim, Druze, Christian, etc., you will be subject to constant body searches.

If you are a citizen and you choose not to serve in the IDF which is the choice of every non Jew, it means you do not get a certain level of security clearance and it is that lack of security clearance that presents an obstacle if you want a job in certain sectors where security is an issue. That is what causes problems and it causes the same problems to Jews who do not wish to serve in the IDF and ask for exemption on mental health or religious grounds.

The animosity between Jewish and Muslim and Christian Israelis is a crock of shit. Of course there are those who hate each other. But there is just as much infighting between Jews as there is between Jews, Muslims and Christians and for the same reasons.

This is why I doubt the above poster has ever been to Israel. If he was there he would know the state of security lock down, the constant state of security causes a siege mentality and whether the Israeli is a Jew, Muslim, Christian, they adapt the same traits-its a high strung on edge characteristic that reflects in bad driving and high mortality rates when driving and in being testy when having to line up for anything.

I have numerous Muslim Israeli friends. Some of them had no choice but to come to Canada. The lack of security clearance and the constant fear of being retaliated against everytime there is a terrorist attack is real to them and no its not easy. But neither is it easy for Israeli Jews for the exact same reasons and its why they come to Canada for the exact same reasons-the inability to find work because of security clearance issues or severe competition and animosity from others whether they be fellow Jews, Muslims, etc., trying to get the same job.

This attempt to spin it into simple black and white Jew v. Muslim is as much a crock of shit as it is to say all Palestinians get along with each other or there is no dispute between different Muslim sects or between Palestinians and other Arab nationalities.

This spin to make it only appear to be a problem in Israel is a crock. Israel has many internal ethnic and religious problems. Absolutely. But perhaps this person can discuss how he found the treatment of Jews or Palestinians in Jordan or Lebanon or Syria or Egypt. I won't hold my breath.

[Oleg Bach]

You are behind oin the news, all israeli citizens have democratic rights....russians, arabs, druze, christians....

Israeli citizens do not have democratic rights..If a jewish peace activist makes friends with her Palistinian counter part..they will toss rocks though her window. IF a Jew insists on peace with his neighbours and former brothers the Palistinians..he will be persecuted - because it is a crimminal government of surrogate mafia types that run the place..thank God that they finally jailed Conrad Black and curbed the Nazi like policy that was the Jerusalem Post..Funny I could swear that Eddie Greenspan must have finally said to himself..."Conrad is a god damn trouble maker and I am tired of him toying with Israel" It is possible and probable that Eddie sold Conrad out...and if that is the case..righfuly so that the adventurer is doing time and out of everyone's hair.

[eyeball]

(August1991 @ May 11 2008, 03:41 PM)To return to my OP, we in the West must think hard about what values we want to defend in this world and in the future. By raising victimhood to an ideology, the Left promotes regimes that are antithetical to the Enlightenment tradition.

What regimes would these be? You're not going to say regimes like North Korea and China are you?

Edited May 15, 2008 by eyeball

[Rue]

Considering that current factors (ie - the Occupation, in-fighting between Hamas and Fatah) have obliterated any sense of a hopeful future, it's not surprising that Palestinians have latched onto the past. It's the only way they have to maintain their identity in the face of decades of various forms of oppression. Quite frankly, I think any group would do the same if it had the same limited set of options the Palestinians have.

The current factors as you call them are not the reason we have terrorism they are as a result of terrorism.

Each Palestinian has a story. Stop patronizing them. Many are probably far more educated then you and your attempts to portray them as helpless victims clinging to the past sounds like you projecting your perceptions and assumptions on them.

If you really care denounce the terrorists that hold them hostage and stop patronizing them and assuming they all need terrorists to do their fighting and represent them.

Its not that simple.

[eyeball]

What's wrong with being proud of your country?

Pride is an emotional feeling that people have. A country is just a thing it, doesn't have feelings. If I said I was proud of my universe would I sound any less foolish?

[Oleg Bach]

Pride is an emotional feeling that people have. A country is just a thing it, doesn't have feelings. If I said I was proud of my universe would I sound any less foolish?

Pride is not an emotional feeling when it comes to country..actually lets use the term nation or nationality..it means extended family where as the definition of country actually means territory. Now if you are proud of your family you will do the best for it and protect the interests of that family or NATION. It is NOT emotionalism..it is pragmatic and the very basis of survival. But we are not very good at surving these days..we are disloyal to immediate family members. We dishonour our parents and children...so we are up for grabs because we have no pride or sense of preservation. Israel at least attempts to protect family and extended family (nation)..we are losers where we sell out our own children and parents and nation as if we are dogs greeding at the bowl. We have no pride - which is loyality. If we were loyal to our own..China would not own our asses.

[Rue]

Oh Oleg you state;

"Israeli citizens do not have democratic rights.."

We in the mood for sweeping simplistic generalizations this morning that ignore the obvious? Psst. What you should have said was in your opinion, you do not feel Israeli citizens have democratic rights. You sound a tad presumptious.

"If a jewish peace activist makes friends with her Palistinian counter part..they will toss rocks though her window."

You have invented a scenario and a rather simplistic one at that with no context, and then you suggest that is the objective basis for the conclusion or assumptions not just for the rock throwing but the lack of democracy. Psst. Your subjective perceptions created by your invented scenarios does nothing but establish you confuse your own subjective assumptions with objective reality. Do try again.

"IF a Jew insists on peace with his neighbours and former brothers the Palistinians..he will be persecuted - because it is a crimminal government of surrogate mafia types that run the place.."

Yooohooo Oleg....what are you talking about? Again you create a scenario and pose it as a fact to base yet again more subjective assumptions on. That is not rational or logical. Its simply fantasy and projection of fantasy on others to rationalize your position you think you understand them all and how they all think and are motivated.

What makes your comments absurd, is that there is a strong peace movement, in fact hundreds of peace groups in Israel that play a strong, vocal, active role in its society. Maybe instead of creating these fantasies and posing them as facts you at least make an effort to find out who the peace network is in Israel and what they do and why they are able to do what they do-here's a hint, they aren't being killed or stoned.

As for your reference to surrogate mafia running the place....if you are suggesting its politicians are crooks, I can't argue with you there, that seems to be common with all politicians..but maybe just maybe there might be one person who tells the truth. Its possible.

"thank God that they finally jailed Conrad Black and curbed the Nazi like policy that was the Jerusalem Post.."

O.k. Oleg back down to earth please. Conrad Black has not owned the Jersualem Post for many years. When he did own it, he had no control or say in its editorial policy. Your odious suggest that the Jerusalem post had Nazi policy is vile for two reasons-firstly all you do when you call any Israeli or Jew a Nazi or Nazi like, is to bait them and show your own intolerance. Enough with the Nazi references.

Secondly find out what the Jerusalem Post's editorial policy has been. Its been one of the most vocal opponents of the Israeli governments in power. You would know that if you stop stereotyping and imposing your subjective misconceptions which you assume are true because you feel they are true. The Israeli media has never been an apologist to any Israeli government.

"Funny I could swear that Eddie Greenspan must have finally said to himself..."Conrad is a god damn trouble maker and I am tired of him toying with Israel" "

The above is now nonsensical. The Conrad Black trial had nothing to do with Israel.

"It is possible and probable that Eddie sold Conrad out...and if that is the case..righfuly so that the adventurer is doing time and out of everyone's hair."

How does the above assumption you make have anything to do with Israeli policy.

Get a grip Oleg. Eddie Greenspan is a criminal lawyer who represented Conrad Black in regards to criminal offences that had nothing to do with Israel foreign or domestic policy or resulted from either.

[Oleg Bach]

Oh Oleg you state;

"Israeli citizens do not have democratic rights.."

We in the mood for sweeping simplistic generalizations this morning that ignore the obvious? Psst. What you should have said was in your opinion, you do not feel Israeli citizens have democratic rights. You sound a tad presumptious.

"If a jewish peace activist makes friends with her Palistinian counter part..they will toss rocks though her window."

You have invented a scenario and a rather simplistic one at that with no context, and then you suggest that is the objective basis for the conclusion or assumptions not just for the rock throwing but the lack of democracy. Psst. Your subjective perceptions created by your invented scenarios does nothing but establish you confuse your own subjective assumptions with objective reality. Do try again.

"IF a Jew insists on peace with his neighbours and former brothers the Palistinians..he will be persecuted - because it is a crimminal government of surrogate mafia types that run the place.."

Yooohooo Oleg....what are you talking about? Again you create a scenario and pose it as a fact to base yet again more subjective assumptions on. That is not rational or logical. Its simply fantasy and projection of fantasy on others to rationalize your position you think you understand them all and how they all think and are motivated.

What makes your comments absurd, is that there is a strong peace movement, in fact hundreds of peace groups in Israel that play a strong, vocal, active role in its society. Maybe instead of creating these fantasies and posing them as facts you at least make an effort to find out who the peace network is in Israel and what they do and why they are able to do what they do-here's a hint, they aren't being killed or stoned.

As for your reference to surrogate mafia running the place....if you are suggesting its politicians are crooks, I can't argue with you there, that seems to be common with all politicians..but maybe just maybe there might be one person who tells the truth. Its possible.

"thank God that they finally jailed Conrad Black and curbed the Nazi like policy that was the Jerusalem Post.."

O.k. Oleg back down to earth please. Conrad Black has not owned the Jersualem Post for many years. When he did own it, he had no control or say in its editorial policy. Your odious suggest that the Jerusalem post had Nazi policy is vile for two reasons-firstly all you do when you call any Israeli or Jew a Nazi or Nazi like, is to bait them and show your own intolerance. Enough with the Nazi references.

Secondly find out what the Jerusalem Post's editorial policy has been. Its been one of the most vocal opponents of the Israeli governments in power. You would know that if you stop stereotyping and imposing your subjective misconceptions which you assume are true because you feel they are true. The Israeli media has never been an apologist to any Israeli government.

"Funny I could swear that Eddie Greenspan must have finally said to himself..."Conrad is a god damn trouble maker and I am tired of him toying with Israel" "

The above is now nonsensical. The Conrad Black trial had nothing to do with Israel.

"It is possible and probable that Eddie sold Conrad out...and if that is the case..righfuly so that the adventurer is doing time and out of everyone's hair."

How does the above assumption you make have anything to do with Israeli policy.

Get a grip Oleg. Eddie Greenspan is a criminal lawyer who represented Conrad Black in regards to criminal offences that had nothing to do with Israel foreign or domestic policy or resulted from either.

Oh come on now. Don't tell me that the owner of a publication has absolutely no say! Yes I was sweeping in generality. BUT - there is one fact. There are extremists and fanatics in all groups. Israel is no exception. This buisnesss that the Israeli can do no wrong is simply silly. Now..I have seen Greenspan operate in court. He is a well oiled old machine. And - I read countenance accurately. Eddie did not like Conrad...I as a novice could have mounted a better and more crafty defence.

Getting back on track as far as democracy. In my estimation democracy does not exist anywhere in the world. It is a loose term and by design used to sooth the stupid masses. Isreal is no exception. There is a small group of men that run the place and just like here - don't give a damn who votes left or right. The powers that be scoff at the left and right political concept.

You are dreaming if you actually think that he will of the average Jew in Israel means squat. If the people there had real power - through real democracy..then their would be peace by now. As I mention..one of the failing in Israel is the rejection of real socialistic democracy that was established by the Rabonni Jesus the Christ...like the highly effective way of loving your enemy - to death...they ignore the anciet wisdom and logic of ancient Christian teachings - and yes Christianity is Judean. For instance if you love your enemy..that enemy has a choice. Either love you back creating mutual co-operation...OR that enemy chooses to hate you..it's choice! If they hate you and you continue to love them more - they become toxic and destroy them selves.

My point is that all weapons should be used to bring peace including love - and Israel hates the Palistinans..and that means there will never be peace..I hope you found the concept of loving someone to death amusing...Christ was not a sissy..He was the physical king of Judea..what I find stupid is that the age old concept "The Jews killed Christ" IS SO GOD DAMN ABSURD....The Romans (occupying state) had total control over the police..military - the courts and the executioner....The Italians killed Christ....now that we have that cleared up lets move on ...maybe the Vatican can send a few billion to Palistine - and Israel...after all...they generated the hate to begin with.

[JB Globe]

What's to admire in Israel other than the historic value and the beautiful landscape? Like I said earlier...IF you have to factions in the same area and you give aid to one and none to speak of to the other - then palistine becomes the subjugated labouring slave to Israel--- and to think the Jews are so enamoured about being let out of slavery by good old Moses...I guess that it's OK to get cheap labour out of Palistine.... Your admiration for Israels tonacity is understandable - but 60 years of sheer stuborness - paranoia and self centredness may not be something to be proud of - IT'S ABOUT MONEY...GIVE TO PALISTINE WHAT WE GIVE TO ISRAEL AND ALL WILL BE FINE..."I am not Jewish but I admire the State of Israel" Talk about looking at the Jews in a stero-typical manner - why even mention that you are not a Jew...sounds like you are pandering..that last thing Israel needs are more enablers and pandering...they need to be told to be fair with their Palistinian brothers...but..maybe the cheap Jewish thing does have merit? Talk about stero-typical --oooh did I mention that the Scotts are cheap also - it is said that the Scotts are one of the last tribes - great judges and lawyers>

Was that directed at me or the original poster?