Bill C-51

[gc1765]

I discover it's merely about banning phony "natural" remedies.

"Phony"? What makes you think that natural remedies are phony?

(that being said, I'm not sure where the "banning 70% of natural health products" figure came from...)

[SoccerDad]

Hello Angus!

While I will concede that my original post could have had a question mark after the fascism bit or that using the word itself may be cause for hackle raising due to it's broad definition, on the rest of your points we'll have to agree to disagree. But that's a good thing as disagreement will often breed great discussion.

Hava good one, SD

[margrace]

Hello Angus!

While I will concede that my original post could have had a question mark after the fascism bit or that using the word itself may be cause for hackle raising due to it's broad definition, on the rest of your points we'll have to agree to disagree. But that's a good thing as disagreement will often breed great discussion.

Hava good one, SD

And the bottom line is to get the information out there so Canadians can assess it and make up their own minds.

[SoccerDad]

And the bottom line is to get the information out there so Canadians can assess it and make up their own minds.

Bingo!

[margrace]

And Socordad that is exactly what people such as argus are on here for. They are an extension of Mr. Harpers rules about information getting to the public.

[margrace]

SoccerDad a Good explanation of how this forum works woud be to watch NOW on PBS today. Of course this is about the "Mission Accomplished" in 2003 with Bush, but it also shows how the people who backed this and evidently believed it operated. People such as argus are explained on there and what their mission is.

[SoccerDad]

The most dangerous consumer product

Pierre Lemieux - April 14, 2008

WesternStandard.ca

The Harper government has introduced two bills as part of their "Food and Consumer Safety Action Plan," which will take decision-making power away from individuals and give it to the state. It's worth stepping back and asking: who exactly is being protected - Canadian consumers or Canadian business?

Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his Health Minister Tony Clement have introduced two bills as part of their “Food and Consumer Safety Action Plan.” Referring to some new power the bills grant to the state, Harper declared, “We don’t actually have this now, believe it or not, beyond foods.” Believe it or not, there is some power the state doesn’t yet have! The parliamentary “opposition” was elated: “It’s ... something that we started,” said Stéphane Dion.

Bill C-51 would amend the Food and Drugs Act and other laws. Bill C-52 would enact a brand new law “respecting the safety of consumer products.” Jail terms of up to five years are proposed. These bills, each 30 pages thick, are complex and, as usual, not meant to be read by the simple subject. Indeed, virtually nobody reads proposed legislation, including MPs. Everybody relies on the government’s propaganda machine for explanations.

Yet, it is an obvious truth, isn’t it, that the state must protect consumers against dangerous products? Not necessarily.

The first reason why the state should not protect consumers is that they are generally quite capable of protecting themselves. Not only must they be if they are deemed competent to vote, but many private institutions have incentives to help consumers. Retailers, and especially those who have brand names with high reputation values (say, The Bay or Wall Mart), spend a lot of resources selecting the goods they resell. If you look under your toaster, you will probably see the “UL” mark which certifies that the product has been tested for safety by Underwriters Laboratories, a private organization that evaluates some 20,000 types of products around the world. If a wholesaler or retailer does not undertake such steps as requiring independent certifications, he may have problems with his insurance company and — except if a lower price compensates for the higher risk — with his clientèle.

The second reason is that what constitutes a dangerous product is not as obvious as it may seem. Virtually everything is dangerous to a degree. And each individual with his own preferences for risk makes his own choices — unless he is overruled by politicians and bureaucrats. The bills introduced by the Conservative government would facilitate the arbitrary designation of products as dangerous. The preamble of each bill states that “the Parliament of Canada recognizes that a lack of full scientific certainty is not to be used as a reason for postponing measures that prevent adverse effects on human health if those effects could be serious or irreversible.” This idea of bulldozing individual preferences irrespective of scientific evidence has been called the “Lalonde doctrine,” in honour of the Liberal Health Minister who formulated it in 1974. No wonder Dion is happy!

Section 4(2) of Bill C-52 states, “This Act applies to tobacco products ... but only in respect of their ignition propensity.” Schedule 2 of the bill prohibits some kites as well as lawn darts “with elongated tips.” What other jokers will come out of these bills?

Third, consumer protection policies have perverse consequences that make the Welfare State even more in demand. The more people believe that the state protects them against everything, the more gullible they become and the more they need their Nanny.

Fourth, there are hidden interests behind the safety regulations. The bills emphasize imported goods and will, the government explains, “enable law-abiding Canadian businesses to compete on a more level playing field.” Not only is “level playing field” socialist gibberish, but it also points to the commercial interests behind the plan: domestic businesses against lower-cost foreign competitors.

As the Hugo Chavez of the North, Harper admonished the "outfits" who "care more about the almighty dollar than the safety of their customers," and "wilfully expose Canadians to dangers." However, Bill C-51 explicitly excludes foods and cosmetics "manufactured in Canada solely for the purpose of being exported." Let the bad Canadian capitalists kill foreigners!

Fifth, the increased consumer protection, so-called, makes the state even more powerful and, thus, protection against it even more hopeless. Food and consumer product inspectors will be among the praetorians allowed to obtain search warrants by telephone, and to "enter on or pass through or over private property." Bill C-51 creates a registry for food importers and interprovincial merchants, besides boosting other licences and authorizations. As history shows, politics is the most dangerous consumer product one can think of.

We are stuck in a perverse political system where each colour of government brings its own blocks — red or blue — to the building of the Police State. If you think that "Police State" is too strong a term, replace it (for now) by "Benevolent Totalitarian State" or "Administrative State." It is possible that Tony Clement, who has shown some concern for our liberties, does not wilfully participate in this construction. But he is paid to be blind and deaf, a bit like the consumer straw man who will swallow anything.

Pierre Lemieux is a professor, an economist, and author of numerous books and articles, and editor of Liberty in Canada, an online pro-liberty news source sponsored by the Canadian Constitution Foundation.

[SoccerDad]

SoccerDad a Good explanation of how this forum works woud be to watch NOW on PBS today. Of course this is about the "Mission Accomplished" in 2003 with Bush, but it also shows how the people who backed this and evidently believed it operated. People such as argus are explained on there and what their mission is.

Thanx for the heads up!

[M.Dancer]

I fully believe naturpaths should be regulated. By whom though? My first thought is by the same group that regulates Carnivals and televanglists...

[DrGreenthumb]

I fully believe naturpaths should be regulated. By whom though? My first thought is by the same group that regulates Carnivals and televanglists...

This is just more Conservative nanny state fascism. Why can't Harper and his ilk understand that as an adult I don't need his protection from garlic pills, red bull, or any other product. I don't even need the conservatives to protect me from poppies and cannabis. I am quite capable of deciding for myself what substances i will consume.

Any law that gives the government more power takes that power away from the PEOPLE. No government agaency should ever have the right of search and seizure on private property without due process. This bill will give bureacrats the right to storm into private property and steal private property seize bank accounts etc without ever having to go before a judge.

The conservatives are total fascists.

[eyeball]

The conservatives are total fascists.

So are the Liberals, the road to serfdom may be a one-way road but its also a mutli-lane freeway, well its certainly not free but...you know what I mean.

[kuzadd]

soccerdad: having actually read through chunks of Bill C51, it is disgusting , and reeks of caving to big pharma, some of the language in it looks as if it could be aimed at people who even gather their own herbs and use them on themselves.

the powers granted to confiscate are frightening.

(a) in relation to a therapeutic product —manufacturing, collecting, processing, pre- serving, labelling, packaging, importing for sale, distributing, wholesaling or testing,

I also read up on this

"In 2003 Health Canada launched an attack on a group of mentally ill patients and the company who supported them naturally. They seized shipments of a safe natural therapy required by the patients and stormed the support center with 17 armed officers and agents. The company (Truehope) reported that they lost contact with more than 300 of their Canadian participants. The Canadian Mental Health Association told of suicides as a result of government action. "

this was frightful, frightful indeed.

This removes peoples right to chose an alternative treatment, and limits those treatments also.

It indicates to my the Haper regime, is bending to big pharma and is in essence snuffing out the competition, like the "heavy' doing the dirty work for the crime bosses.

It is amazing to note the responses from the "conservatives", but not surprising, as they cry for ever bigger nanny governments to keep them safe, and allow themselves, nay beg, to have their own choices restricted to those that serve the interests of big big business, and not them.

Edited May 5, 2008 by kuzadd

[AngusThermopyle]

Hello Angus!

Well hello to you too, but you got the wrong guy.

I think you meant Argus since this is my first and only post in this thread.

[M.Dancer]

THE CANADIAN PRESS

May 3, 2008 at 12:35 PM EDT

OTTAWA — The Canadian Food Inspection Agency is warning the public not to consume certain ground beef products because they may be contaminated with E. coli bacteria.

The following frozen ground beef products are affected by this alert.

Steakhouse Beef Burgers in the 1.02 kilogram package Code Date 0858 sold at M&M Meat Shops across Canada.

Belmont Meat Products ground beef patties in 4.54 kilogram restaurant packs bearing the UPC code 0 60597 35020 9 sold at Costco Wholesale in Ontario

nanny state fascists....why can't they let Canadians decide if tainted meat or herbal remedies or patent medicines is what they want....

[buffycat]

nanny state fascists....why can't they let Canadians decide if tainted meat or herbal remedies or patent medicines is what they want....

Do you even know what C-51 entails?

Did you even read it?

Or are you simply spewing your usual partisan lines Dancer?

BTW - do you even work - or just hang around here ALL day long? Certainly Dancer, it seems since you are here daily, with such informative (snicker) posts, perhaps you are simply a paid hack.

In fact I'd bet on it.

Shill for sure. Inconsistent to say the least.

[buffycat]

It is amazing to note the responses from the "conservatives", but not surprising, as they cry for ever bigger nanny governments to keep them safe, and allow themselves, nay beg, to have their own choices restricted to those that serve the interests of big big business, and not them.

Yeah odd eh?

Used to be that conservatives stood for small government and NO nanny state.

Amazing what fear politics combined with some good old fashioned redneckedness does eh?

pffft

[M.Dancer]

BTW - do you even work - or just hang around here ALL day long? Certainly Dancer, it seems since you are here daily, with such informative (snicker) posts, perhaps you are simply a paid hack.

In fact I'd bet on it.

Shill for sure. Inconsistent to say the least.

memo to handlers:

File under too stupid to bother.....

[buffycat]

memo to handlers:

File under too stupid to bother.....

Talking to yourself again Dancing man???

pffft... ha ha

lol

edited to add:

Did you read c51??

Do you understand what it REALLY entails????

Or can you only answer posts with your snip comments - adding nothing???

If you have nothing to add outside of crass comments - why bother even involving yourself in the thread? Unless your only goal is to upset, bait and flame?

Oh sorry - it is!!!!!!!! :D

Edited May 5, 2008 by buffycat

[M.Dancer]

If you have nothing to add outside of crass comments - why bother even involving yourself in the thread? Unless your only goal is to upset, bait and flame?

Man, you are one deluded mofo.

Always fun to pants a hypocrite

[buffycat]

Always fun to pants a hypocrite

???

What in the world does that mean?

Did you make a spelling error? How have I been a hypocrit? Care to point that out? Find a quote here.

Besides that - DO you have anything to say wrt to topic?

Please, comment on how this effects small business, consumer rights, liberties. Please say something about how this effects us all as Canadians. It would be far more interesting than your usual crap.

BTW - if all you can do in response to this is hurl more shit in my direction then don't bother - because you are wrecking a thread which otherwise has some pretty good content, well outside of any of your posts anyhow.

[M.Dancer]

???

What in the world does that mean?

Did you make a spelling error? How have I been a hypocrit? Care to point that out? Find a quote here.

You accuse someone of flaming right after you post...

Man, you are one deluded mofo.

Unless of course you think calling someone a deluded mother fucker is a complement, then add brainless to hypocrite.

[buffycat]

You accuse someone of flaming right after you post...

Unless of course you think calling someone a deluded mother fucker is a complement, then add brainless to hypocrite.

Well, gosh and this coming from the guy who used to bear the title: The ASSHOLE previously known as Morris Dancer??

(Which by the way, was far more descriptive of you than your current byline. Though I sure do agree that YOU are lost)

Now, I'll repeat for you since you seem to be unable to read and spell today:

Please, comment on how this effects small business, consumer rights, liberties. Please say something about how this effects us all as Canadians. It would be far more interesting than your usual crap.

BTW - if all you can do in response to this is hurl more shit in my direction then don't bother - because you are wrecking a thread which otherwise has some pretty good content, well outside of any of your posts anyhow.

[M.Dancer]

Please, comment on how this effects small business, consumer rights, liberties. Please say something about how this effects us all as Canadians. It would be far more interesting than your usual crap.

BTW - if all you can do in response to this is hurl more shit in my direction then don't bother - because you are wrecking a thread which otherwise has some pretty good content, well outside of any of your posts anyhow.

It tightens the act to prevent snake oil salesmen selling crap to Canadians whic it seems you would prefer.

I have read the act have you and can you point to anything in it that supports the claims of the original post?

[M.Dancer]

Well, gosh and this coming from the guy who used to bear the title: The ASSHOLE previously known as Morris Dancer??

And what name would I know you as?

[Topaz]

Unless you are into buying non-prescription items then you don't know that the doctors that become "natural" doctors have to go to school for 4 years after college or university. They can't write prescriptions, so unless the Feds are going to license these doctors to do that then that means they are out of a job. Most GP's don't know anything about the medications and that's why I think the Minister is bias in his decision on natural medications. Just look how long the Chinese and even the First Nation has used these substances.