Should RCMP officers be fired for not knowing french?

[Leafless]

Hiring managers should have to certify in writing the number of hours that the minority language must be used before being permitted to classify a job as bilingual.

Why bang your head against a cement wall trying to counter a discriminatory federal bilingualism policy.

The biggest mistake allowing this policy to grow out of the ground, was by allowing French minorities to run for PM of this country.

The rest is history, a minority feeding their ideologies at the expense of the majority.

Anyone voting for a French PM in this country can only only expect more of the same discriminatory treatment against the majority English speaking citizens of this country.

English speaking Canadians can only describe themselves with a single word, 'suckers'.

[Pat Coghlan]

English speaking Canadians can only describe themselves with a single word, 'suckers'.

I think it all boils down to numbers. Public sector jobs make up slightly more than 20% of all jobs in Canada (~3M). When the private sector was healthy (e.g. prior to 2000), there wasn't a lot of interest in getting a public sector job.

These days, however, with a looming financial crisis and possible recession/depression, many people are seeking the relative good benefits and job security of a government job. Unfortunately, they're now waking up to the fact that most of these jobs are out of reach for anglophones.

With 40% of the public sector jobs coming available in the next 5 years or more due to baby boomer retirements, I suspect job seekers will turn this into an election issue.

[Leafless]

I think it all boils down to numbers. Public sector jobs make up slightly more than 20% of all jobs in Canada (~3M). When the private sector was healthy (e.g. prior to 2000), there wasn't a lot of interest in getting a public sector job.

These days, however, with a looming financial crisis and possible recession/depression, many people are seeking the relative good benefits and job security of a government job. Unfortunately, they're now waking up to the fact that most of these jobs are out of reach for anglophones.

With 40% of the public sector jobs coming available in the next 5 years or more due to baby boomer retirements, I suspect job seekers will turn this into an election issue.

What does this have to do with a federal bilingualism policy creating discriminatory hiring practices against the majority English population of Canada, thus creating a federal job haven for Francophones?

[Pat Coghlan]

What does this have to do with a federal bilingualism policy creating discriminatory hiring practices against the majority English population of Canada, thus creating a federal job haven for Francophones?

I thought I was fairly clear. People can see that good jobs are getting harder and harder to find, except perhaps in the public sector. If they can't get those jobs because of language requirements that aren't backed up by any justifiable metrics (service to the public excepted), there will be an outcry which may push politicians to put some kind of caps etc. in place.

Otherwise, virtually every job in the public sector (in bilingual regions) will be occupied by a francophone.

[M.Dancer]

I thought I was fairly clear. People can see that good jobs are getting harder and harder to find, except perhaps in the public sector. If they can't get those jobs because of language requirements that aren't backed up by any justifiable metrics (service to the public excepted), there will be an outcry which may push politicians to put some kind of caps etc. in place.

Otherwise, virtually every job in the public sector (in bilingual regions) will be occupied by a francophone.

Amazingly, of the 3 people I know who work for the feds, all are bilingual anglophone ex-montrealers.

[Leafless]

I thought I was fairly clear. People can see that good jobs are getting harder and harder to find, except perhaps in the public sector. If they can't get those jobs because of language requirements that aren't backed up by any justifiable metrics (service to the public excepted), there will be an outcry which may push politicians to put some kind of caps etc. in place.

Otherwise, virtually every job in the public sector (in bilingual regions) will be occupied by a francophone.

I know for a fact, since the 80's, there has always been a demand for federal public service jobs.

What your talking about is that many English speaking Canadians are not interested in federal managerial positions even if they are bilingual because of discriminatory tactics used against the English by the French culture component of the federal public service, meaning if your not French you are not truly bilingual and thus treated indifferently.

[joan]

Cripes, you people who are still whining about bilingualism are going to have to drag yourself out of the 1950's sometime!

Canada's edge in the new economy will be having employees who can do business in many languages. It's just simple economics, and French is a very useful employment skill, as are the many other mother tongues of Canadians.

[M.Dancer]

In the new economy two languages are essential.

You must be fluent and articulate in English and it goes without saying you must talk Turkey.

[Pat Coghlan]

I know for a fact, since the 80's, there has always been a demand for federal public service jobs.

What your talking about is that many English speaking Canadians are not interested in federal managerial positions even if they are bilingual because of discriminatory tactics used against the English by the French culture component of the federal public service, meaning if your not French you are not truly bilingual and thus treated indifferently.

No, I'm talking about interest in government jobs, in general.

One federal recruiter once told me, "prior to 2000, jobs went begging, but now people are *crying* to get into the public service of Canada".

Not convinced? Prior to 2000, federal jobs were posted on the website for a couple of weeks and received a handful of applications. Currently, jobs are only posted for a few *days* and result in HUNDREDS of applications.

I feel that this renewed interest in public sector jobs is going to require that existing language language requirements be revisited and possibly overhauled.

[Leafless]

One federal recruiter once told me, "prior to 2000, jobs went begging, but now people are *crying* to get into the public service of Canada".

I have never heard of jobs going begging prior to 2000 in the federal public service.

Not convinced? Prior to 2000, federal jobs were posted on the website for a couple of weeks and received a handful of applications. Currently, jobs are only posted for a few *days* and result in HUNDREDS of applications.

This has got little to do with the job itself but the normal permanent aspect of employment with little or no fear of job loss as compared to to-days risky private job market.

Cash for life jobs are in demand.

I feel that this renewed interest in public sector jobs is going to require that existing language language requirements be revisited and possibly overhauled.

Fat chance of that happening. Its like giving candy to a child. Try taking it away.

The only possibility of that happening is to vote for a party that represents your cultural interest and to date all national federal parties are in collusion with the fact Canada has two official languages and all support current bilingual policies.

Dysfunctional federal politics, ROC vs. Quebec, has destroyed the normal merit system of obtaining employment with the federal government resulting in corrupt linguistic cultural practices as a replacement.

[Pat Coghlan]

Canada's edge in the new economy will be having employees who can do business in many languages. It's just simple economics, and French is a very useful employment skill, as are the many other mother tongues of Canadians.

Can it be that useful if, after 40 years of immersion schools, job requirements etc., less than 10% of anglophones have felt the need to become bilingual?

In addition, the recent census indicates that French continues to decline across Canada.

[Topaz]

As I told my kids years ago, power is in education. The more you know the more you can excel and language may not be manatory but the more language you know the more it will benefit you. Of course it will depend on what you are doing as far as a job goes. I thought that for Federal jobs you had to know both languages and with the RCMP being sent around the world, why not? It may save their life some day. BTW, there are communities in Ontario that are also French-speaking. I don't think anyone should be fired but if they want to keep their job , they should at least TRY to learn the language and if they don't they may end up cleaning out the stalls for the horses!!!

[Wilber]

I don't think anyone should be fired but if they want to keep their job , they should at least TRY to learn the language and if they don't they may end up cleaning out the stalls for the horses!!!

Why? The need for French speaking police officers in BC is minuscule. The need for South Asian and Oriental languages is great. Why should we tailor our policing requirements around a failed national language policy that has little relevance for us other than making the provision of services more difficult and more expensive?

[Pat Coghlan]

As I told my kids years ago, power is in education. The more you know the more you can excel and language may not be manatory but the more language you know the more it will benefit you. Of course it will depend on what you are doing as far as a job goes. I thought that for Federal jobs you had to know both languages and with the RCMP being sent around the world, why not? It may save their life some day. BTW, there are communities in Ontario that are also French-speaking. I don't think anyone should be fired but if they want to keep their job , they should at least TRY to learn the language and if they don't they may end up cleaning out the stalls for the horses!!!

You DON'T need to know both languages to have a federal job...at least not yet. If things stay on the current course, though, you probably will.

Should the 90% of anglophones in this country only expect to be cleaning out horse stalls if they work for the government? Is language more important than technical, accounting, management and other skills? Well, if you look at the job postings one might think so.

[M.Dancer]

Should the 90% of anglophones in this country ..........

76.8%, actually

[kimmy]

I remember when I lived in Ottawa, being downtown at 4:01pm on a weekday and being almost crushed by the stampede of federal government workers rushing out of the office towers and onto the buses, like a Canadian version of the running of the bulls. "That sounds pretty sweet," I thought to myself.

So a few years later, reflecting on the memory of those happy and unburdened office workers, I decided to browse Government of Canada job postings online, and on a whim decided to apply for a position.

After filling out the first page in the online application, I was informed that I would not be considered for the position because of my...

...postal code.

They never even got the chance to reject me because I'm too Anglo or too pale; I got rejected because I lived in Edmonton.

Perhaps Kimmy needs to learn French to be eligible for the civil service, but the civil service needs to learn a hell of a lot more before they're eligible for Kimmy.

In the time since, I have read Argus here on MLW explain how job postings in the federal service can be classified as "french required" not as a result of any requirements of the job, but as a means for a manager to narrow the field in favor of a prefered applicant.

And I recall another poster who provided an article stating that an Anglo learning French at public schools doesn't have sufficient fluency in French to satisfy the language poobahs anyway. (Perhaps if there were equally vigilant English language poobahs, I wouldn't have to listen to some inept civil servant's incomprehensible mumblings when I try to get assistance by telephone.)

Dangling cushy jobs as an incentive to learn French is a painfully fake means of boosting the French language; and deceptive anyway: learn french, and there'll be some other reason you're not good enough for them.

-k

[M.Dancer]

If you like, I could lend you my postal code....

[Pliny]

They should speak French and half of them should be women, doncha think?

This argument is entirely a political issue. It has no basis in law, economics or social intercourse.

People do attempt communication and it is unlikely they will refuse to make the attempt to communicate, unless their is some gain in doing so. In Canada, the political and cultural climate provides economic advantage to some over others. It could be seen as an attempt to equalize an unequal situation, to make it fair, to level the playing field. Unfortunately, this favour or privilege provided by a government leaves it's ability to deliver justice rather rudderless and adrift, subject to whatever the whim of those delivering it.

There will always be struggles socially where cultures interact. Setting laws to favour one culture over another is not what governments should be doing. The interaction of cultures is a societal evolution and dialectically develops a new culture. It makes it vibrant, dynamic and ever-changing. Preserving a culture in law is artificial engineeering. Societal pressure to preserve a culture is far more rational than attempting it in law. Law attempts to alleviate those pressures but in that attempt only serves to deliver injustice in the form of privilege and favour.

Is there any wonder our police forces find themselves under such heavy scrutiny. It is because justice does not prevail. Fairness, equality and a level playing field for all is what prevails. Thus criminals, special interests, minorities, must be "made" equal by the law. Since, for instance, French cannot be made a majority instantly, English must be made to seem a minority. Chinese is prevalent in the Vancouver area and English is becoming less relevant. There is a movement, of a few people, to keep English predominant and mandatory. No law will be made of course because it would be unfair and unequal in favour of the majority, and rightly so. The Chinese could lobby for a law to be able to maintain their culture and language. They aren't, but they could and they would succeed because it moves them toward equality. EVEN though the law would show favour - something law

must never do if it is at all just. Justice has become "making" all things equal rather than blindly seeing things that come before it as being equal.

This, in my opinion, is a perversion of equality coming out of political correctness which has it's roots in communistic socialist ideology. Not that I oppose socialism - it is the only way a business can be successfully run - there is no room for democracy in running a business.

..... and have a glorious day!

[Leafless]

Cripes, you people who are still whining about bilingualism are going to have to drag yourself out of the 1950's sometime!

Dummy up!

Federal style bilingual policies are cropping up in majority English speaking cities and municipalities, literally stealing majority English speaking jobs under (French) an obsolete language that hardly no one uses.

I am specifically referring to the province of Ontario a majority English province, a province that is not designated 'officially bilingual' but who has a French sympathizer premier Dalton Mc.Guinty who is solely responsible for allowing Ottawa to implement an 'official bilingual policy'.

Canada's edge in the new economy will be having employees who can do business in many languages. It's just simple economics, and French is a very useful employment skill, as are the many other mother tongues of Canadians.

What new economy????

French is an obsolete language and it is not simple economics, it is costly mismanagement in any man's language.

There were never any rules to prevent one from using the language of your choice in Ontario to begin with , but not in an 'official manner'.

Canada is a majority 'de facto' English speaking country', for your information and that is 100% factual.

[rbacon]

As an Albertan the sooner we drop the RCMP and have our own local Provincial Police the better. Then it will not matter. Our Police would then speak English only. At the same time we need to kick Ottawa out of Banff, Jasper, Waterton and Woods Buffalo. This is Alberta land and it belongs to Albertan's and we don't need French there either.

[Visionseeker]

I am specifically referring to the province of Ontario a majority English province, a province that is not designated 'officially bilingual' but who has a French sympathizer premier Dalton Mc.Guinty who is solely responsible for allowing Ottawa to implement an 'official bilingual policy'.

Wow! A provincial premier who has the audacity to allow the municipality that is our nation's capital adopt a bilingualism policy! What next, an edict that allows doctors and nurses to work in hospitals?

What new economy????

That would be the one you seem to be oblivious of.

French is an obsolete language and it is not simple economics, it is costly mismanagement in any man's language.

Um yes, 350-400 million speakers worldwide certainly points to the language being obsolete.[/sarcasm]

[Borg]

The RCMP is thinking about having all their officers know both official languages and laying off those who can't speak at least half-decent French, the Canadian official language. Perosnally, I am absolutely appalled at how negative English Canada sees the French. They don't take the time to learn Canada's second language and expects the government to give everything to them at the expense of French Canadians.

Appalled? Make me laugh.

Screw the kebekers - they are the cause.

Try the reverse in that low life province.

Whining barstards.

Can't wait for them to leave - and take their debt with them.

How's that for negativity?

Borg

[Leafless]

Wow! A provincial premier who has the audacity to allow the municipality that is our nation's capital adopt a bilingualism policy!

You mean the undemocratic arrogant audacity of a bilingual loving Liberal premier (Dalton Mc.Guinty) to show such disdain for the majority English speaking population of Ontario without the primary condition of demanding the implementation of at least, a city of Ottawa municipal referendum since the province of Ontario is NOT officially bilingual.

Mike Harris premier of the previous Ontario provincial government was asked the same question from French groups several times but refused on the grounds it is not a necessary requirement.

Whether the City of Ottawa is our nations capital or not, is entirely irrevelent relating to undemocratic IMPOSED language requirements. Bilingual language policies is the responsibility of the federal government in provinces that are not 'officially bilingual' , which is well represented in all entities of the federal government in Ottawa.

That would be the one you seem to be oblivious of.

And oblivious to you as you don't want to identify what exactly you are talking about or don't know what you are talking about.

Um yes, 350-400 million speakers worldwide certainly points to the language being obsolete.[/sarcasm]

It is obsolete when you fail to include important demographics like the fact we are part of North America and not the rest of the world.

Since the U.S. like Canada stretches from sea to sea and the majority primary language of both countries being approx. 333 -million people is English, I dare say French is totally obsolete with basically the only people speak it are residents of Quebec, Canada, with a population of about 6-million people who speak the French language.

[seabee]

Can a unilingual francophone be hired to be a policeman? If not, this indicates that language requirements are jobs requirement, related ot a skill in communication that is learned, not a birth characteristic. Describing the fact that unilingual anglophones are discriminated is inaccurate,as the job requirements deal with learned skills, not "racial", "ethnic" or any other genetic or cultural features.

What is good for one group of Canadian citizens is just as good for any other group of Canadian citizens.

[Leafless]

Can a unilingual francophone be hired to be a policeman? If not, this indicates that language requirements are jobs requirement, related ot a skill in communication that is learned, not a birth characteristic. Describing the fact that unilingual anglophones are discriminated is inaccurate,as the job requirements deal with learned skills, not "racial", "ethnic" or any other genetic or cultural features.

What is good for one group of Canadian citizens is just as good for any other group of Canadian citizens.

Even in the Ottawa, Ontario area, French uni lingual residents represent 2-3% of the total population. These people should learn English to advance their employment opportunities.

French is NOT a national job requirement but only one under the entities of our discriminating federal government.

Provinces have have control of their own language requirements just like Quebec but unfortunately provinces like Ontario, with premier Dalton Mc.Guinty who prefers to take a dictatorial route rather democratic approach to bilingual policies in that province has created linguistic divisiveness and discrimination between the majority English speaking and the minority French population of Ontario.

Even under our Constitution in the Charter Sec.16-1 states "English and French are the official languages of Canada and have EQUAL rights and privileges as to their use in all institutions of the Parliament and government of Canada."

The Federal Government broke the Constitutional rights of English Canadians in THEIR own federal Charter by implementing compulsory 'official bilingualism under federal entities including of course the federal public service.