Omar Khadr

[DogOnPorch]

OK execute the brown eye Arab spawn of satan - by the way - what the hell were all those medics and commrades doing in a land that has not theirs to venture on anyway

9-11...you might have heard of it. It was in all the papers.

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Omar Suarez : Watch my back.

Tony Montana: Better than your front, lemme tell you. Much easier to watch.

---Scarface

[capricorn]

I can't see where I implied that I don't have anything to fear from him. I said I feel for him, and I do. I said I think he was mistreated, and he was. I doubt you'd be ok with one of your troops being treated the way he was and I know I wouldn't condone it for American captives. As for a child being raised the way he was, how can anyone not feel for the child?

AW, I'll be honest with you. I did not read the link you supplied. I have been reading about this case for years and I feel I know enough about the case to believe he and his family are enemies of my country and are undesirables.

But I think being prosecuted and sentenced would be better than the endless captivity he's been enduring.

I am very frustrated that the American justice system has not to this date managed to bring him to trial. Yet the fact remains I want him to stay incarcerated and never allowed to go free.

I can understand how you wouldn't want him in your country. It sounds to me as if his father used Canada-- fighting his fights in Afghanistan, coming back to Canada for medical treatment when he was injured; then going back as soon as he was physically able, and released when he was captured after the Canadian government requested his release. I find all of that a bit difficult to understand. If anyone could explain it to me, I would appreciate it.

How Canada treated the Khadrs is not so difficult to understand. For years, Canadian politicians and their bleeding heart supporters have laid out the red carpet for individuals whose sole purpose was to come here to abuse of our benevolence. Canadians are fed up to the teeth that our national security is put at risk because politicians want the country to look like the good guy of the world. Taxpayers are fed up of footing the bill for the needs of those refugees and undesirable immigrants who contribute nothing to our society. The legal expenses they amass to fight our government when things don't go their way are shocking. We get to pay for that too. These are just a few reasons why ordinary Canadians have had enough of this charade.

[AngusThermopyle]

OK execute the brown eye Arab spawn of satan - by the way - what the hell were all those medics and commrades doing in a land that has not theirs to venture on anyway - everyone forgets that sending a bunch of blue eyed devils into the land of the dark bearded brown eyed ones may cause a fight - where are the visionaries? Rather than bicker here about Omar - what say you give him the lethal injection - and be rid of this fathers son - a kid that was loyal and respectful to his dad and obedient - in this nation - sons dispise their fathers of the most part - I suppose that gives us the high ground - that we are a nation with no loyalty to family or friends - and the nation with honour and respect is the one lower down the food chain..... How would you like it if we were invaded by China - and your kid was tossing explosives to repel them? Well done oh brave young warriors of secualarist utlitarian corporatizm Canada - at least the kid put up a fight - our kids are useless and will give in to who ever pays them or buys them a beer and a video game.

Hmmm, you keep spouting off crap constantly. Now it's been said before but I guess you didn't understand, so I'll repeat it for you, again. He was born in Canada, his parents were from Egypt, he was not defending his country. Get it yet?

If you hate the west so much why do you stay? Is it because deep down inside you know for sure that running off with your hate the way you do would get you height reduced in a hurry in these wonderfull countries you compare us to so unfavourably?

I don't know about the kids you know but out here I know many fine kids. We've got a kid 15 years old who puts in a days work equal to that of the grown men we have. We have a 17 year old who is CWB certified and lays down welds that are simply beautifull. We have another 17 year old who can operate any piece of heavy machinery you give him with a precise and delicate touch. This is in a small company of 35-40 people.

Don't sound much like the mindless drooling evil youth you constantly spout off about. One thing I admire about them far more than you is that they do an honest days work and pay their taxes. I know, novel concept for you to absorb, you should try it some day, you never know you just might like it.

Edited January 9, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[Oleg Bach]

Hmmm, you keep spouting off crap constantly. Now it's been said before but I guess you didn't understand, so I'll repeat it for you, again. He was born in Canada, his parents were from Egypt, he was not defending his country. Get it yet?

If you hate the west so much why do you stay? Is it because deep down inside you know for sure that running off with your hate the way you do would get you height reduced in a hurry in these wonderfull countries you compare us to so unfavourably?

I don't know about the kids you know but out here I know many fine kids. We've got a kid 15 years old who puts in a days work equal to that of the grown men we have. We have a 17 year old who is CWB certified and lays down welds that are simply beautifull. We have another 17 year old who can operate any piece of heavy machinery you give him with a precise and delicate touch. This is in a small company of 35-40 people.

Don't sound much like the mindless drooling evil youth you constantly spout off about. One thing I admire about them far more than you is that they do an honest days work and pay their taxes. I know, novel concept for you to absorb, you should try it some day, you never know you just might like it.

OK - my objective was to piss you off - seems you are not easily provoked..darn - I really do not hate the west - nor do I hate the east - The west is my home and the blood is from the east - suppose after being here for a while and going into my 58th year of life, I should calm down in my maturity - but - I don't like to see YOU - dispise this youth as if you are better or your children or the rest of your clan is better - all are entitled to their little kingdoms - even these peasants you seeminly loath. To be honest with you I know very few if any "mindless drooling youth" - most kids in this nation are fine once you get past the front.

My 17 year old is a brilliant player and is doing things now that took me till I was 35 to accomplish - I am pleased with todays youth - mine and others - all of my children are independent in mind and spirit - apparently Omar did not have a father like you or I - I guess that's what is heart breaking - no way in heaven or hell would I have allowed this to happen to my son - so that's the way I truely feel - You do not attack and kill others - you aviod this barbarism at all cost unless attacked - you do not go looking for trouble - so I give in to you my friend - It's just such a shame and waste of a young life - it grieves me - does not matter where or how he originated - there was a fine young man in Omar at one time - maybe the Young Offenders Act would have been helpful - just kidding - The father is to blame - no son of mine would ever be encouraged to murder - nor would any son of yours - - - Just a deep hurt - and by the way - Love to you and yours - you seem like a fine man.

[Muddy]

To use the analogy that if kids in Canada took up arms against an invader would be the same thing as what Omar did is ridiculous. He is niether Afgan or Pakistani. He wore no uniform to identify himself a soldier. Geneva conventions then would and should class him a common criminal or spy. He should not be accorded the same rights as a uniformed soldier of ones country.

But what disturbs me most about those who defend this guy ,is that he ,a Canadian and was fighting us. yes I know it was an American soldier he killed, but he would not be distinguishing the difference in battle what nationality his target was . He was fighting NATO forces. Our allies! That means us! Our youngsters in uniform,his Canadian peers, were in danger from him. When he is released ,he should be either tried here for treason or stripped of his citizenship and sent back to egypt.

[Oleg Bach]

To use the analogy that if kids in Canada took up arms against an invader would be the same thing as what Omar did is ridiculous. He is niether Afgan or Pakistani. He wore no uniform to identify himself a soldier. Geneva conventions then would and should class him a common criminal or spy. He should not be accorded the same rights as a uniformed soldier of ones country.

But what disturbs me most about those who defend this guy ,is that he ,a Canadian and was fighting us. yes I know it was an American soldier he killed, but he would not be distinguishing the difference in battle what nationality his target was . He was fighting NATO forces. Our allies! That means us! Our youngsters in uniform,his Canadian peers, were in danger from him. When he is released ,he should be either tried here for treason or stripped of his citizenship and sent back to egypt.

Firstly correct me if I am wrong - there was no uniformed Canadian persence in the area where the alledged granade tossing took place. You mention he was fighting NATO forces which is "us" - as if there is an us and a them...well this up heavel that is taking place as we speak and has been now going on since the infamous 9 11 - and prior - It's still not clear to me what we are fighting or who we are fighting - Everyone has lost sight of the fact that there was no clear reasoning other than appeasing the American corporates that have taken over the White House, for sending troops to Afghanistan - and Iraq - it's still not clear what happened there or did not happen - seems we will become like the Israel and Palistine - who have actually forgotten what the original Abrahamic fued was about - I could see it in ten years and no one will be able to explain the original reasoning for our involvement in this distant place - and I repeat again - why has no one dealt with the faciltators of these events - Pakistan and Saudi Arabia - they hate us..and they shelter and fund and stir up more hate - why have be become cowards and why are we afraid to go to the source which are the mentioned enablers of this hate?

[Muddy]

Firstly correct me if I am wrong - there was no uniformed Canadian persence in the area where the alledged granade tossing took place. You mention he was fighting NATO forces which is "us" - as if there is an us and a them...well this up heavel that is taking place as we speak and has been now going on since the infamous 9 11 - and prior - It's still not clear to me what we are fighting or who we are fighting - Everyone has lost sight of the fact that there was no clear reasoning other than appeasing the American corporates that have taken over the White House, for sending troops to Afghanistan - and Iraq - it's still not clear what happened there or did not happen - seems we will become like the Israel and Palistine - who have actually forgotten what the original Abrahamic fued was about - I could see it in ten years and no one will be able to explain the original reasoning for our involvement in this distant place - and I repeat again - why has no one dealt with the faciltators of these events - Pakistan and Saudi Arabia - they hate us..and they shelter and fund and stir up more hate - why have be become cowards and why are we afraid to go to the source which are the mentioned enablers of this hate?

Omar must have marvelous eyesight to read in the midst of battle the the shoulder flashes of his enemy to insure he was not directly fighting Canadians! What tripe you espouse! Answer me this! Are we or are we not part of this NATO mission in Afganistan? If we are then Canadians who knowingly fight NATO are in fact Treasonous crud who should at the least be stripped of their citizenship if not hung.

Let me remind you once again why we are there since you have forgotten once again. Afganistan was harbouring the terrorists group Alquida run by Binny Ladin and his happy gang of virgin seeking screwballs who were responsible for 9/11 and were planning to attack Canada along with Great Britian. I am not making this up, Binny himself promised this.The Taliban were giving them the basis to train and plan their attacks on the free world. Got it? One of the great side effects ,is the Taliban could no longer subjugate the female population into stone age slaves.the Taliban are very good at fighting defenceless women you know. Little girls can now go to school. Of course I believe in womens rights to dress as they wish, pursue education and career. That makes me different I guess from you. I know I am a hard man ,but it is hard men that keep you safe in your wee comfy bed at night. Omar and his family look to dupes like you! You do their propangada for them. Always blame America. Canadians died at 9/11 by the way. But don`t let that stop you from giving comfort to the Binny Ladin gang.

[FTA Lawyer]

The little f**ker tossed a grenade at a medic. The medic's commrades wanted to just put a bullet into him right there and then. But instead they fixed the little terrorist up and sent him to GitMo. Still alive. Let's see what the enemy does with captives, shall we??

http://inhonor.net/videos/uped/fl_video.php?f_num=183600

Unarmed even...well done, oh brave warriors of Islam.

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You have to think about one shot. One shot is what it's all about. The deer has to be taken with one shot. I try to tell people that - they don't listen.

---Robert De Niro, The Deer Hunter

Did you miss the few clips we all saw of how "we" (i.e. Americans, our NATO allies) treated captives? Do you not have the least bit of concern when democratic governments refuse to answer whether a technique like "waterboarding" is or isn't torture? for fear that the enemy might learn about our interrogation techniques?

At the end of the day, my problem with the whole Khadr thing is not that I like terrorists or that I want one living in my basement...it's that we are allowing our principled societies to become barbaric (read terrorist) by abandoning centuries-old concepts of justice and fairness and then justifying our behavior by claiming to be better than the real terrorists becuase we have pure motives.

It's bullshit.

If the US has such compelling fair and just cause to detain people in a military prison in Cuba, then why...please, one person possibly tell me why...would Bush implement a law that bars any such detainee from making any application to any court in any jurisdiction seeking habeas corpus??????????????????

For those that may not know, habeas corpus is a hundreds of years old principle that compels a captor to "produce the body" of his prisoner to a court of law and provide an explanation why they are justified in keeping the person captive.

If they are so justified, why not simply answer such an application? Really. Why? I challenge anyone to give me one good reason.

If Khadr did what so many seem to have already decided he did (never mind the lack of any hearing or tiral) then it should be the easiest application ever to answer. Instead, the superior democratic freedom-fry loving Americans, defenders of all that is good, committers of no wrong, have barred Khadr and all detainees from any opportunity to have a judicial review of the validity of their detention.

I'm sorry, if there is nothing to hide...then why hide?

FTA

[M.Dancer]

Did you miss the few clips we all saw of how "we" (i.e. Americans, our NATO allies) treated captives? Do you not have the least bit of concern when democratic governments refuse to answer whether a technique like "waterboarding" is or isn't torture? for fear that the enemy might learn about our interrogation techniques?

Considering the enemies techniques often leave you without a head....I am honestly not too worried about it. On the otherhand, I often shake my head everytime I hear that Canadians hand over prisoners to the Afgan Nationals....what are they thinking? Why on god's earth are they wasting time taking* prisoners?

* as opposed to those who surrender on their own free will

[DogOnPorch]

FTA: Did you miss the few clips we all saw of how "we" (i.e. Americans, our NATO allies) treated captives?

Yes...we did this line already. Take a look here for my response.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....showtopic=10598

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Ho-Ho-Ho....Green Giant.

[FTA Lawyer]

Yes...we did this line already. Take a look here for my response.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....showtopic=10598

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Ho-Ho-Ho....Green Giant.

Look, what I am saying is I really don't want to become a country that considers itself to be on the moral high ground because we torture captives more humanely than out enemies do...I'd prefer to stick to the principles that we started defending in the first place.

Anyway, putting that aside (i.e. I am fully prepared to concede that our enemies do torture worse than us) your post is missing any attempt to answer why Bush would need to do away with habeas corpus applications...

FTA

[DogOnPorch]

FTA: Anyway, putting that aside (i.e. I am fully prepared to concede that our enemies do torture worse than us) your post is missing any attempt to answer why Bush would need to do away with habeas corpus applications...

T'is war...in all its ugly glory. Little angel Omar can become a page in history anytime now...bye, bye. Say, bye-bye...

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As punishment for your desertion, it's company policy to give you the plague.

---C. Montgomery Burns

[FTA Lawyer]

T'is war...in all its ugly glory. Little angel Omar can become a page in history anytime now...bye, bye. Say, bye-bye...

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As punishment for your desertion, it's company policy to give you the plague.

---C. Montgomery Burns

That's seriously your answer?

Can't Omar give the same response to all of those who hate him for what he did (assuming it is proven)?

WORLD: Omar, you bastard, why would you fight the allies of your country of citizenship and particularly, how in the hell could you kill an American soldier with a grenade...while not wearing a military uniform!!??

OMAR: T'is war...in all its ugly glory. Little infidel American soldier is a page in history now...bye bye.

Boy, I guess I've been bested on this one...

FTA

[DogOnPorch]

Pretty much...nobody really cares about the little terrorist...just you lawyers.

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An unfulfilled vocation drains the color from a man's entire existence.

---Honore de Balzac

[Sully]

At the end of the day, my problem with the whole Khadr thing is not that I like terrorists or that I want one living in my basement...it's that we are allowing our principled societies to become barbaric (read terrorist) by abandoning centuries-old concepts of justice and fairness and then justifying our behavior by claiming to be better than the real terrorists becuase we have pure motives.

It's bullshit.

If the US has such compelling fair and just cause to detain people in a military prison in Cuba, then why...please, one person possibly tell me why...would Bush implement a law that bars any such detainee from making any application to any court in any jurisdiction seeking habeas corpus??????????????????

For those that may not know, habeas corpus is a hundreds of years old principle that compels a captor to "produce the body" of his prisoner to a court of law and provide an explanation why they are justified in keeping the person captive.

If they are so justified, why not simply answer such an application? Really. Why? I challenge anyone to give me one good reason.

If Khadr did what so many seem to have already decided he did (never mind the lack of any hearing or tiral) then it should be the easiest application ever to answer. Instead, the superior democratic freedom-fry loving Americans, defenders of all that is good, committers of no wrong, have barred Khadr and all detainees from any opportunity to have a judicial review of the validity of their detention.

I'm sorry, if there is nothing to hide...then why hide?

FTA

I remember a quote from my business law professor (a very well respected lawyer here in BC) talking about our laws and its relation to an equitable outcome coming from the courts. "If you want justice try religion". Day in and day we see verdicts handed out in the courts here in Canada which have defied logic. Weak sentences for serious criminals. Focus on rehabilitation of perpetrators and not focus on the support of the victims or their families. That alone makes me feel that our "principled" has become unprincipled long ago.

As for the detention of a one Omar Khadr, we can all agree that he was in a foreign land that he should not have been and I am confident that he was NOT helping locals build irrigation networks. He was bred from a puppy to be a pitbull by his evil handlers amd I am positive he has more knowledge than you and I will ever know about. That knowledge may be more sensitive than anything we suspect. There are many things governments do not tell their citizens and for good reason, things that need to be kept in the dark.

1.) THE INFORMATION MAY COMPRISE CURRENT MILITARY OPERATIONS WHICH SUPERCEDES THE NEED TO HAVE ALL YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED. A COURT MAY NOT BE ABLE TO SUPPRESS THE INFORMATION LEAK AS EASILY AS THIS TYPE OF DETENTION.

Afterall if Omar is such a minimal threat as you may suspect, then why waste the money on detention of such a non-threat.

[Peter F]

...As for the detention of a one Omar Khadr, we can all agree that he was in a foreign land that he should not have been and I am confident that he was NOT helping locals build irrigation networks. He was bred from a puppy to be a pitbull by his evil handlers amd I am positive he has more knowledge than you and I will ever know about. That knowledge may be more sensitive than anything we suspect. There are many things governments do not tell their citizens and for good reason, things that need to be kept in the dark.

1.) THE INFORMATION MAY COMPRISE CURRENT MILITARY OPERATIONS WHICH SUPERCEDES THE NEED TO HAVE ALL YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED. A COURT MAY NOT BE ABLE TO SUPPRESS THE INFORMATION LEAK AS EASILY AS THIS TYPE OF DETENTION.

Afterall if Omar is such a minimal threat as you may suspect, then why waste the money on detention of such a non-threat.

From the original US commission charge sheet of 2005 (edited by me):

Omar born 19 sep 86 in Toronto

1990 moved with family to Pakistan

1994 Father arrested and imprisoned in Pakistan, Omar and siblings return to Canada to

live with thier grandparents

1995 Omar returned to Pakistan

1996 Omar moves with family to Afghanistan

1996-2001 Omar and family travel throughout Afhanistan and Pakistan

2002 Omar recieves weapons training in Afghanistan

27 Jul 2002 Omar captured in Afghanistan

Omar Khadr returned to Pakistan from Canada in 1995 at the age of 9.

Are you seriously suggesting that a nine-year old should have known what legal conundrum he was getting himself into? That returning to Pakistan with his family would eventually, 6 years hence, land him in some god-forsaken hovel in Afghanistan being bombed silly by the USAF.

When the party of American soldiers approached, With his ears still ringing from the 500lb bombs, the 15 year old should have known that the approaching ssf boys were really medics and had absolutely no intention of causing him harm? Should he have understood that despite the weapons they were carrying they were in fact 'Medics'. Should he have recalled what he learned in Canada in grade 3 about the Geneva Conventions and the Laws of War?

But he did toss the grenade. If a Canadian 15 yr old did the same thing to an Al Queda guy they'd give him a fukin medal....The term 'self-defence' comes to mind.

The real culprit here, I think, is the Canadian elementry school system.

As for the lads intelligence value, I'm very doubtfull that Osama et al would entrust any secrets to him at all that would still be of any value to anyone 2 minutes after his capture.

They're keeping him locked up because of the hundreds and hundreds of terror suspects they detained in Guatanamo, He's the only one that actually killed anybody - and not even a civilian passer by at that. The rest of them are being charged for driving Osama around or providing assistance and support to Al Queda. Many have been released back to thier home countrys. Those not yet charged are being held because they had Seiko watches or AK47's in thier house or somebody (secret somebody and not to be divulged) claimed they were terrorists.

Why not Omar? Because he's the strongest case they've got...and pretty pitiful at that.

They're keeping him because politically the whole Guatanamo thing has turned into an embarrassment and they are desperate to produce something...anything...to justify it.

Edited January 10, 2008 by Peter F

[Dog]

quote name='FTA Lawyer' date='Jan 9 2008, 10:56 PM' post='285040']

.... your post is missing any attempt to answer why Bush would need to do away with habeas corpus applications...

FTA

As a lawyer you should know that an American president has no power to do away with habeas and that the Combat Status Review Tribunal and the Detainee Treatment Act was passed by the Democratic controlled congress . In June of 2004 in the case of Hamdi v. Rumsfeld the US Supreme court found that the prisoners could be deemed “enemy combatants” and held indefinitely so long as they received some minimum of “due process.”

Congress had the power to strip the Guantanamo prisoners of habeas rights because there was no precedent in the 220 years of American law or, for that matter, in the five centuries of the English empire in which habeas was granted to an alien in a territory that was not under the sovereign control of either the United States or England.

One very important thing that is missing from this thread is mention of Chris Speer by name the 28 yr old medic that Omar Khadr murdered . A few days prior to his being murdered by Khadr Chris rescued two small Afgan children who were injured after straying into a mine field by walking into the mine field at great risk to himself . By all accounts Chris was someone his family and country could be very proud of unlike Omar Khadr .

[Peter F]

One very important thing that is missing from this thread is mention of Chris Speer by name the 28 yr old medic that Omar Khadr murdered . A few days prior to his being murdered by Khadr Chris rescued two small Afgan children who were injured after straying into a mine field by walking into the mine field at great risk to himself . By all accounts Chris was someone his family and country could be very proud of unlike Omar Khadr .

Yes, that is a very important thing. Sgt Speer fully deserved to live his life out to a fine old age with his wife, whom he loved, watching thier children grow. There ard a couple of thousand more US soldiers like him too.

[Oleg Bach]

Yes, that is a very important thing. Sgt Speer fully deserved to live his life out to a fine old age with his wife, whom he loved, watching thier children grow. There ard a couple of thousand more US soldiers like him too.

My point is the mercy for this young man shows class - and it will help to heal the scar that is rapidly seperating Muslims and Jews and Christians. The man mention that was killed by the kid is a hero and it is a great shame on Omar and his family. To continue to hate will only lead us further away from peace and stabilty..that's my point. There are those in the west that continue to use Islam to justify war - believe it or not there are kind and generous Muslims - to use them as a hate object or to make them the new jew of persecution will not serve us well in the long run.

My second daughter was gravely ill and hospitalized - in the bed next to her was a Muslim mother dying of cancer - I adored her husband - a man of great courage and love. There was a young Muslim man about the age of Omar - My daughter was crying out in thirst - no one brought her water from what I heard - walking in the hall I saw this fresh faced Muslim boy carrying two glasses of water. I asked him why two - your mother needs but one - He without being asked was bringing out of love and compassion, water for my daughter. I saw care and civility in this boys face and love for others...This moment changed my outlook - we can not persecute a whole group of people anymore than we can persecute Germans - or Jews by creating institutionalized hate that attacks the innocent as well as the good.

[Army Guy]

Are you seriously suggesting that a nine-year old should have known what legal conundrum he was getting himself into? That returning to Pakistan with his family would eventually, 6 years hence, land him in some god-forsaken hovel in Afghanistan being bombed silly by the USAF.

When the party of American soldiers approached, With his ears still ringing from the 500lb bombs, the 15 year old should have known that the approaching ssf boys were really medics and had absolutely no intention of causing him harm? Should he have understood that despite the weapons they were carrying they were in fact 'Medics'.

Should he have recalled what he learned in Canada in grade 3 about the Geneva Conventions and the Laws of War?

But he did toss the grenade. If a Canadian 15 yr old did the same thing to an Al Queda guy they'd give him a fukin medal....The term 'self-defence' comes to mind.

The real culprit here, I think, is the Canadian elementry school system.

The boy still is responsiable for his actions, right or wrong. ingorance of the laws is no excuse....he did after all have no problem in learning combat skills, he knew exactly what they would be used for....and he had no problem in carrying out those skills....He was 15 at the time, and over there was considered an adult many years ago....

What surprises me is that no one is calling for any action to be carried out again'st the parents, albiet one is dead. but both had a part in this whole mess...and yet they are still considered fit enough to raise the others, here in Canada...

Did he know about the genva conventions, i'd say he knew those ones pertaining to the treatment of POW's...like the criminals here in Canada they know enough about the law when it comes to saving thier own asses...and in Afgan i don't know how many times i was adviced by Afganis POW's of what they thought thier rights were....

Did he know it was again'st the conventions to shoot medics, or did he know if they were medics proably not....

one could also say that if the medics had let the infantry boys clear the area first this would not have happened...as young MR Kadr would be laying with all those virgins he was promised....

So a whole seris of events have lead us to where we are now....Self defense perhaps....but that would mean he would be label as a combatant and at the very min could be held until this mess is over...

The question is what do we do with him now...let him go ? what do you think the young angry Khadr will do, my bets is on traveling back to Afgan to carry out what he started....do you think his family will talk some sense into him...remember this is the same family that tried to talk one of thier sons into becoming a suicide bomber....

or do we leave him locked up until this mess is over...

Just one more note ,don't kid yourself about the status of all those POW's currently held in gitmo, or other prisons...they are there for a reason...I've seen what these guys have done, most would make those mifia guys look like good church going people....

[Rue]

American my comments were not directed specifically at you-just rhetorical. Sorry. Should have clarified that. None of my comments were directed at what you said or challenged what you said. In fact I probably agreed with 99% of what you stated earlier.

You stated;

"From the time he was born, this is what was instilled in him. It's all he knew.

They definitely recruit children. Evidently orphans are particularly targeted. "

That of couse AmercGal is one crucial point. It could be quite rightly argued children terrorists must be treated with a different standard because their capacity to form decisions is defective. The problem of course is does anyone know how to define when a child becomes old enough to know right from wrong and that terrorism is wrong? Its a tough one with no answer.

You stated;

"But there's a huge difference between trying someone and giving them a sentence under humane prison conditions, and what he and so many others have been enduring at Gitmo."

Now I personally (slight difference of opinion here) do not think his conditions are inhumane in Gitmo but I fully concede leaving him in prison with no legal process and in isolation(which you are technically right can be considered inhumane under some conventions) indefinitely as did happen is legally unacceptable.

The failure to me (this is my personal opinion only) is that I believe he should have been placed in a military prison as a prisoner of war and he was tried by a military tribunal and given a fair trial.

You stated;

Is it effective to create foreign programs to channel the frustration and anger of poverty and help use it to buold nations-of course. Now how will you and I though convince the Int. Monetary Fund that its policies deliberately prevent this from happening? I personally think we have to pursue such alternatives to try channel people away from violence and terror to peaceful options through non profit organizations. I have no confidence in governments. again I applaud your sentiments but I am just not sure how we get around these corupt regimes and terror groups that will compete directly for the same peoples' hearts and minds.

You stated;

"I don't think they go around "screwing" western girls."

My comment was not meant towards you. I said it seriously though. Many many people feel "child" terrorists should not be in school with their children let alone dating their daughters. They don't differentiate minorities from terrorists and when they see a young terrorist let out it causes back-lash and fuels tension. That was my point. Sory I could have been more clear on that. It was not directed at you at all, just as rhetoric.

You stated;

"And no, I wouldn't want them in my neighborhood."

Again I apologize. This was not meant as a question to you. It was a rhetorical question, i.e., none of us want a rehabilitated criminal in our neighbourhoods including me. So its a practical problem is what I mean. Say we do release Kadr back into society-where does he live? Who hires him? Do we think he will simply vanish into our society and be a good boy? These are all questions with no absolute answers we are faced with if we want to take him back.

Sorry Amerk. It sounded like I was questioning what you said. No just general issues with it.

On one level I of course I follow FTA on the legal issues. On a very practical level, I am just not sure how some of these issues can and will be resolved.

I personally do not think this is just an American issue. I think it is a world issue, and it is on the US's lap at this point, because many other nations find it easier to sit, and let the US take the brunt of the criticism and sit back and are relieved they do not have to deal with him.

Amerc it may not be the answer but for me for now, I believe Bush was dead wrong interfering with the US Military's JAG office and creating this parallel legal administration for suspected terrorists. I believe it should have bee handled by the JAG and then proper international courts and I believe Bush should have stayed out of it.

I also believe in this specific matter Kadr if anything should be tried in an international court with Judges who have no direct political interest that could influence them and based on the procedures and guidelines of a convention soveriegn nations agree to follow.

Therein lies the challenge. The trials we saw at Nurmeberg will not work with terrorists. We have a lot to re-write and lol, you YankeeFemale don't need to defend your views to me! I respect them a lot. I only wish I had proper answers for you as to legal solutions to address some of your sentiments.

Edited January 10, 2008 by Rue

[Oleg Bach]

The boy still is responsiable for his actions, right or wrong. ingorance of the laws is no excuse....he did after all have no problem in learning combat skills, he knew exactly what they would be used for....and he had no problem in carrying out those skills....He was 15 at the time, and over there was considered an adult many years ago....

What surprises me is that no one is calling for any action to be carried out again'st the parents, albiet one is dead. but both had a part in this whole mess...and yet they are still considered fit enough to raise the others, here in Canada...

Did he know about the genva conventions, i'd say he knew those ones pertaining to the treatment of POW's...like the criminals here in Canada they know enough about the law when it comes to saving thier own asses...and in Afgan i don't know how many times i was adviced by Afganis POW's of what they thought thier rights were....

Did he know it was again'st the conventions to shoot medics, or did he know if they were medics proably not....

one could also say that if the medics had let the infantry boys clear the area first this would not have happened...as young MR Kadr would be laying with all those virgins he was promised....

So a whole seris of events have lead us to where we are now....Self defense perhaps....but that would mean he would be label as a combatant and at the very min could be held until this mess is over...

The question is what do we do with him now...let him go ? what do you think the young angry Khadr will do, my bets is on traveling back to Afgan to carry out what he started....do you think his family will talk some sense into him...remember this is the same family that tried to talk one of thier sons into becoming a suicide bomber....

or do we leave him locked up until this mess is over...

Just one more note ,don't kid yourself about the status of all those POW's currently held in gitmo, or other prisons...they are there for a reason...I've seen what these guys have done, most would make those mifia guys look like good church going people....

Personally I would like to see the young man interviewed at great lenth - lets find out what he is made of. Maybe there is a change..or maybe family ties are stronger than singular common sense. I did not realize that the family attempted to talk one of their sons into murdering himself while murdering others - Hate to say it but from a religious point of view - this family would be considered infidels - murder and self murder are against all ture religious doctrines..This family may be just a bunch of nuts with low intelligence and are easily manipulated - sure would like to meet the one the indoctrinated the father - then you would really see what was going on. Not that I care ....at this point. Some families have a tradition - no matter what culture or religion - a tradition where evil behaviour is considered normal...mabye this family is one of them. We have traditionally evil aglos and jews and muslims etc...all depends on the values that have been handed down generation after generation...I know families that are haters - their grand parents hated - their parents and now them - and they are white folks - Hating can be a cherished family value no matter how inferiour it be - some just can't change.

[Guest American Woman]

This is dated Nov. 18, 2007:

The U.S. says an eyewitness has recently provided new evidence that could bolster Khadr's defense. link

The only evidence they have against Omar Khadr is that he was the only one found alive in the compound. No one saw him throw the grenade. And when they found him, he was all but dead. They didn't expect to find anyone alive in the compound after their attack on it. I would say it's totally possible that someone else who was all but dead could have thrown the gernade and then died by the time the soldiers got to him.

[sergeant Layne] Morris didn't think anybody inside the compound could still be alive. "The assumption was that everybody's dead in there," he says.

But when soldiers went in, someone threw a hand grenade at them. One of the medics, Sergeant Christopher Speer, was killed. Then they found Omar Khadr, barely alive, lying in the rubble and blinded in one eye....

Seems to me he could very well be innocent of the murder charge. Someone else could have thrown the grenade. If only he had been given the benefit of a fair trial ....

Edited January 10, 2008 by American Woman

[noahbody]

link

And that is the heart of Omar Khadr’s defense, his lawyers say: that he had no choice because he had been indoctrinated since earliest childhood to be a good soldier for Allah and an obediant son.

This is an interesting defence. To me, it does try to equate the teaching of extremism to child abuse. If it were successful, would it open the door for children of extremists to be removed from their parents for such teachings?

Edited January 10, 2008 by noahbody

[Peter F]

Seems to me he could very well be innocent of the murder charge. Someone else could have thrown the grenade. If only he had been given the benefit of a fair trial ....

He hasn't had his trial yet. It's ongoing now under the new military commissions act. Released transcripts here:

USMilitary Commissions website

I would like to add, that while these Commissions aren't the respectable Criminal Courts that the USofA is rightly admired for..they arn't Kangaroo Courts either, as I think, reading the available transcripts will show.