DogOnPorch Posted December 27, 2007 Report Posted December 27, 2007 (edited) Islamofascist torture complex found in Iraq. Dec 9th or so... What a pack of sweethearts...apparently in operation for more than a year. Electric drills...blowtorches...the full magilla Coalition forces found 26 bodies buried in mass graves and a bloodstained "torture complex," with chains hanging from walls and ceilings and a bed connected to an electrical system, the military said Wednesday.http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/12/19/...plex/index.html Three buildings containing chains on the walls and ceilings, and a metal bed connected to a power supply were found during an operation on 9 December. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7154856.stm CNN feed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh8YulMhn2o More links here... ------------------------------------------------- There's no connection between al-Qaeda and Iraq. ---George Clooney Edited December 27, 2007 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
capricorn Posted December 27, 2007 Report Posted December 27, 2007 Islamofascist torture complex found in Iraq. Dec 9th or so...What a pack of sweethearts...apparently in operation for more than a year. Electic drills...blowtorches...the full magilla If they will do this to their own, imagine what they would do to us. Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
DogOnPorch Posted December 27, 2007 Author Report Posted December 27, 2007 If they will do this to their own, imagine what they would do to us. Yeah...sort of a Midnight Express crossed with Silent Hill world, I'd imagine. Extreme, brutal torture was common in Saddam's day. Seems things don't change very quickly. Especially when you'd figure that the Islamofascist would be doing a 'hearts and minds' campaign amoungst the local Iraqi's rather than torturing them. Go figure... This discovery...though a few weeks old...hasn't got folks 'worked-up' like the so-called torture going on in Abu Ghraib. I guess that would make these 'insurgents' look like bad guys. Can't have freedom fighters (et al) looking like bad guys when you're selling the idea that US/UK/Aussie forces are the barbarians...I suppose. There's a video on YouTube of drawings made by one of the torturers of his favored methods. I won't post the link as it is rather disturbing...but if your curosity...and stomach...can handle it, search for Torture, Al-Qaeda Style and it might still be there. Apparently, two local Iraqis were rescued who said they were only still alive because their captors wanted to film their torture/execution. Lucky for them the video camera was out being fixed. ------------------------------------------------ Mine is the first generation able to contemplate the possibility that we may live our entire lives without going to war or sending our children to war. ---Tony Blair Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Guest American Woman Posted December 27, 2007 Report Posted December 27, 2007 This discovery...though a few weeks old...hasn't got folks 'worked-up' like the so-called torture going on in Abu Ghraib. I guess that would make these 'insurgents' look like bad guys. Can't have freedom fighters (et al) looking like bad guys when you're selling the idea that US/UK/Aussie forces are the barbarians...I suppose. If it is true that people aren't "as worked up" about this, I'd say it's because we already knew what al Qaeda is capable of. That doesn't mean we are less upset over the torture and deaths, which is a separate reaction from being "worked up," it means that it's within our expectations. The abuse at Abu Ghraib was carried out by our side, and we don't expect that from our nation, which claims the moral high road. Furthermore, when it's our troops doing the torture, we can do something about it. So therein lies the difference regarding how "worked up" people got over one vs. the other. I cannot believe what man is capable of doing to other men. And by "man" I mean the human race, not 'males.' It's sad, disgusting, and upsetting beyond words. Therefore, when it's my country engaging in abuse and I can have an influence, I get even more "worked up" about it because if no one did, nothing would be done about it. Quote
Sulaco Posted December 27, 2007 Report Posted December 27, 2007 (edited) Islamofascist torture complex found in Iraq. Dec 9th or so...What a pack of sweethearts...apparently in operation for more than a year. Electic drills...blowtorches...the full magilla CNN feed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh8YulMhn2o More links here... ------------------------------------------------- There's no connection between al-Qaeda and Iraq. ---George Clooney But at least they aren't making these guys wear panties on their heads. (Does that answer your question AW - drills vs. panties?) Edited December 27, 2007 by Sulaco Quote Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Those who learn from history are doomed to a lifetime of reruns.
Guest American Woman Posted December 27, 2007 Report Posted December 27, 2007 Ummm. I didn't have a question. But thanks just the same. Quote
Moxie Posted December 27, 2007 Report Posted December 27, 2007 The ole so sensitive posters must of missed this thread, they scream and clutch their chest when a mere rumour of torture is written about in Canada. Why their silence? Animals, we are at war with animals. We can't win using our rules, we need to fight them using their methods. Quote Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy
DogOnPorch Posted December 27, 2007 Author Report Posted December 27, 2007 The ole so sensitive posters must of missed this thread, they scream and clutch their chest when a mere rumour of torture is written about in Canada. Why their silence? Animals, we are at war with animals. We can't win using our rules, we need to fight them using their methods. While I agree we can't win by being nice, I don't agree that we should start acting like the enemy. But we do need to be determined to win a war...both the nation and the army. Do it fast, rough and with maximum strength. Then you only need say 'you're sorry' once. This nickle and dime warfare amounts to a war of attrition...which is horrible for moral both at home and in the active service. Plus...we'll lose. If it is true that people aren't "as worked up" about this, I'd say it's because we already knew what al Qaeda is capable of. That doesn't mean we are less upset over the torture and deaths, which is a separate reaction from being "worked up," it means that it's within our expectations. Fair enough...but I don't think the two can really be compared. If I had to make a choice...either 'tortured' by Americans or really tortured by Islamofascists...I'd take the US version. ----------------------------------------------------------- There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the enemy. ---President George Washington Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Michael Hardner Posted December 28, 2007 Report Posted December 28, 2007 We can't win using our rules, we need to fight them using their methods. Did we not just have a post condemning torture ? Now Moxie is calling on us to use it ? AW explained the situation with clarity above, thank you for that. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
DogOnPorch Posted December 28, 2007 Author Report Posted December 28, 2007 Therefore, when it's my country engaging in abuse and I can have an influence, I get even more "worked up" about it because if no one did, nothing would be done about it. Did we not just have a post condemning torture ? Now Moxie is calling on us to use it ?AW explained the situation with clarity above, thank you for that. Moxie is just being passionate...at least that's my take on it. When given the chance, or forced with a choice, it is hard to say how many of us would become heros or villians. It's easy to say you'd throw yourself on the grenade when one is sitting in his/her comfy chair....or not torture the fellow that just raped and killed your wife/daughter/mother when presented with an opportunity. But sure...we're all made of better stuff than that...burp. ------------------------------------------------ That elephant ate my entire platoon.... ---Sgt Seymour Skinner ('Nam Flashback): The Simpsons Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
jbg Posted December 28, 2007 Report Posted December 28, 2007 Islamofascist torture complex found in Iraq. Dec 9th or so...What a pack of sweethearts...apparently in operation for more than a year. Electric drills...blowtorches...the full magilla CNN feed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh8YulMhn2o But Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo are far, far worse. Along with the Jenin Massacre. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Guest American Woman Posted December 28, 2007 Report Posted December 28, 2007 (edited) When given the chance, or forced with a choice, it is hard to say how many of us would become heros or villians. It's easy to say you'd throw yourself on the grenade when one is sitting in his/her comfy chair....or not torture the fellow that just raped and killed your wife/daughter/mother when presented with an opportunity.But sure...we're all made of better stuff than that...burp. I believe that the great majority of us become neither heros nor villians. But killing someone in an emotional rage, someone who just raped and killed your wife/daughter/mother, is much different from the precise and deliberate acts of torture. Yet even at that, by far the great majority of people who have been in that situation realize it's in the hands of the law, and aren't stomping at the bit to go out and kill them, much less torture them. It's one thing to think about it, fantasize about it, quite another to do it. So I see that as reassuring 'proof' that the majority of the human race is "made of better stuff than that." I think we've evolved to the point where we are, for the most part, appalled by acts of cruelty and violence; and I think (hope!) we will keep evolving and progressing in that area. Edited December 28, 2007 by American Woman Quote
DogOnPorch Posted December 28, 2007 Author Report Posted December 28, 2007 I believe that the great majority of us become neither heros nor villians. But killing someone in an emotional rage, someone who just raped and killed your wife/daughter/mother, is much different from the precise and deliberate acts of torture. Yet even at that, by far the great majority of people who have been in that situation realize it's in the hands of the law, and aren't stomping at the bit to go out and kill them, much less torture them. It's one thing to think about it, fantasize about it, quite another to do it. So I see that as reassuring 'proof' that the majority of the human race is "made of better stuff than that." I think we've evolved to the point where we are, for the most part, appalled by acts of cruelty and violence; and I think (hope!) we will keep evolving and progressing in that area. And...I'm telling you that humans are a very predictable animal like any other where certain conditions will trigger different responses. Fight or flight. The military is very aware of this simple fact even if you aren't. During the US Civil War they refered to it as "seeing the elephant"...would that new regiment of green untried soldiers stand in the line or would it rout the first time it sees action? Granted, for most of us, our society would have to break down (like Iraq) before you'd be forced to deal with your animal-side. But you can bet dollars to donuts that it exists...not so deep down inside. ------------------------------------------------------------ Give yourself to the Dark Side. It is the only way you can save your friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for them are strong. Especially for...sister. So, you have a twin sister! Your feelings have now betrayed her, too. Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the Dark Side...then perhaps she will... ---Darth Vader Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Guest American Woman Posted December 28, 2007 Report Posted December 28, 2007 (edited) And...I'm telling you that humans are a very predictable animal like any other where certain conditions will trigger different responses. Fight or flight. The military is very aware of this simple fact even if you aren't. I'm very aware of "fight or flight." However, torture doesn't fit into either one of those catagories. Obviously it doesn't fit the "flight" response, but it also doesn't fit the "fight" response. While it is sometimes a matter of fight or be killed, it's never a matter of torture or be killed. Fighting the enemy on a battlefield is completey different from torturing a captive. Edited December 28, 2007 by American Woman Quote
DogOnPorch Posted December 28, 2007 Author Report Posted December 28, 2007 I'm very aware of "fight or flight." However, torture doesn't fit into either one of those catagories. Obviously it doesn't fit the "flight" response, but it also doesn't fit the "fight" response. While it is sometimes a matter of fight or be killed, it's never a matter of torture or be killed. Fighting the enemy on a battlefield is completey different from torturing a captive. This would include acts...horrible acts...like torture. At some point...different for each of us...we'd engage in the most savage behaviour. At what point would you break? You don't know...nor can you honestly say that you wouldn't ever torture someone for SOME reason. It's the ol' duality of man (humans) as per Nietzsche. Your Apollonian side vs your Dionysian side. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonian_and_Dionysian --------------------------------------------- You’re not gonna believe this. The guy killed 16 Czechoslovakians. He was an interior decorator! ---Paulie Gualtieri: The Sopranos Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Michael Hardner Posted December 28, 2007 Report Posted December 28, 2007 Sorry, DOP. It's hard for me to understand what your position is on torture here, based on some of your comments: Islamofascist torture complex found in Iraq. Dec 9th or so... What a pack of sweethearts...apparently in operation for more than a year. and... Moxie is just being passionate... Are you against torture or not ? Your latter posts with AW seem to indicate that you find it to be understandable... Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
DogOnPorch Posted December 28, 2007 Author Report Posted December 28, 2007 Are you against torture or not ? Your latter posts with AW seem to indicate that you find it to be understandable... Certainly I'm against torture. But as I mentioned, violence and savage behaviour are part of the human condition. Think of it as a philisophical point. At what point would you torture someone?? --------------------------------------------------- He's laughing at your pain... ---Itchy: The Simpsons Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Oleg Bach Posted December 28, 2007 Report Posted December 28, 2007 Sorry, DOP. It's hard for me to understand what your position is on torture here, based on some of your comments:and... Are you against torture or not ? Your latter posts with AW seem to indicate that you find it to be understandable... There is no such thing as "Islamofacism" - that is a term made up in Washington...really! Look at the irony of recent events - Pakistan is an Islamic state - and military dictatorship - Israel is a Judiac military dictatorship - you would assume that they are sworn enemies - BUT - it seems that Washington supports BOTH sides! Talk about liars incorporated! As far as torture - barbarians on American talk radio - promote it continuously - the Americans are attempting to normalize sadistic behaviour - well they do it religiously and economically - so I guess that getting down to the nitty gritty and doing it the old fashion way with rack and water boarding is just them being honest - honest barbarians? The whole thing makes me sick - the world has gone to hell in a hand basket with Little Red Riding Hood holding it as she skipps down the path of absurdity - still can't get over the fact that Washington allowed Bhutto to be killed - much like allowing 911 - don't tell me that "intelligence" did not know - that's impossible in both cases - of course they knew. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted December 28, 2007 Author Report Posted December 28, 2007 There is no such thing as "Islamofacism" Sure there is... ---------------------------------------- Ninety-nine and a half just won't do... ---CCR Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Oleg Bach Posted December 28, 2007 Report Posted December 28, 2007 Sure there is...---------------------------------------- Ninety-nine and a half just won't do... ---CCR Some say there is no Jewish Mafia - well there is - some say that there is no Anglo Mafia sitting in high positions - and I said that there is no Islamofacism - well not really - You must remember the persons in control of Islam do not believe in God - just like the Christian and Jewish controlers - they may moblize fanatics to do their bidding - but the term facism - is but nominal - and to attach Islam to is is also nominal. You must have a person in control of a religious facism - a person that believes in God and in goodness - There is no such leader - all the religious leaders whether Jew - Christain or Islamics are all atheists and powermongers - if they were not such - you would have seen some Godly behaviour by now from the leaders - there is none! It is not evident that Islam even has a good or Godly leader....nor does Judaism - or Christianity - lets just call it Facism and leave it at that - now Anlgo Facism is the great and grander concern - look around - they are attempting to control the world ...and working in partnership with Islam - fanatics are controlable by un-emotional power mongers that supposedly represent the Christian west and the Islamic and Judiac east - FACISM is in Canada - and everywhere else - what else is new - we are no better than the other Nazis. Quote
AngusThermopyle Posted December 28, 2007 Report Posted December 28, 2007 Some say there is no Jewish Mafia - well there is - some say that there is no Anglo Mafia sitting in high positions - and I said that there is no Islamofacism - well not really - You must remember the persons in control of Islam do not believe in God - just like the Christian and Jewish controlers - they may moblize fanatics to do their bidding - but the term facism - is but nominal - and to attach Islam to is is also nominal. You must have a person in control of a religious facism - a person that believes in God and in goodness - There is no such leader - all the religious leaders whether Jew - Christain or Islamics are all atheists and powermongers - if they were not such - you would have seen some Godly behaviour by now from the leaders - there is none! It is not evident that Islam even has a good or Godly leader....nor does Judaism - or Christianity - lets just call it Facism and leave it at that - now Anlgo Facism is the great and grander concern - look around - they are attempting to control the world ...and working in partnership with Islam - fanatics are controlable by un-emotional power mongers that supposedly represent the Christian west and the Islamic and Judiac east - FACISM is in Canada - and everywhere else - what else is new - we are no better than the other Nazis. Just out of curiosity, do you have a laptop equipped with a wireless connection? Because theres only one place I can think of that you can be sitting in order to come up with this much continuous crap. Quote I yam what I yam - Popeye
Guest American Woman Posted December 29, 2007 Report Posted December 29, 2007 This would include acts...horrible acts...like torture. At some point...different for each of us...we'd engage in the most savage behaviour. At what point would you break? You don't know...nor can you honestly say that you wouldn't ever torture someone for SOME reason. It's the ol' duality of man (humans) as per Nietzsche. Your Apollonian side vs your Dionysian side.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonian_and_Dionysian No, torture is not in the catagory of "fighting for one's life." It's in no way self-defense. The people being tortured are already 'captured.' They pose no threat. It's your opinion that "at some point...different for each of us...we'd engage in the most savage behaviour." It's my opinion that most would not, and I've got the reality that most people do not engage in torture backing up my opinion. And yes, I can honestly say that I wouldn't ever torture anyone for any reason. It's not in me. I wouldn't be emotionally capable of it. I know that for a fact. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted December 29, 2007 Author Report Posted December 29, 2007 (edited) And yes, I can honestly say that I wouldn't ever torture anyone for any reason. It's not in me. I wouldn't be emotionally capable of it. I know that for a fact. Sorry, but that's BS. Nobody knows how they'll behave until they 'see the elephant'. We'll just have to agree to disagree. But if society broke down and the rules went out the window, I think you'd find yourself capable of almost anything...including torture...to survive if nothing else. No, torture is not in the catagory of "fighting for one's life." It's in no way self-defense. It certainly could be. A man with a nuclear weapon has it planted somewhere in Los Angeles and he's not talkin'. You have one hour to locate and disarm the bomb... It's my opinion that most would not, and I've got the reality that most people do not engage in torture backing up my opinion. I understand the first part of that sentance... --------------------------------------------------- The Duality of Man The healthy man does not torture others...generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers. ---Carl Jung I assess the power of a will by how much resistance, pain, torture it endures and knows how to turn to its advantage. ---Friedrich Nietzsche Edited December 29, 2007 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Wilber Posted December 29, 2007 Report Posted December 29, 2007 No, torture is not in the catagory of "fighting for one's life." It's in no way self-defense. The people being tortured are already 'captured.' They pose no threat. It's your opinion that "at some point...different for each of us...we'd engage in the most savage behaviour." It's my opinion that most would not, and I've got the reality that most people do not engage in torture backing up my opinion. And yes, I can honestly say that I wouldn't ever torture anyone for any reason. It's not in me. I wouldn't be emotionally capable of it. I know that for a fact. Would I torture someone if it was the only way to get information that would save the life of someone close to me? I think so. Most people don't engage in torture because it is abhorrent to them and they have no reason to. Give them a good enough reason and it's another story. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
DrGreenthumb Posted December 29, 2007 Report Posted December 29, 2007 Would I torture someone if it was the only way to get information that would save the life of someone close to me? I think so. Most people don't engage in torture because it is abhorrent to them and they have no reason to. Give them a good enough reason and it's another story. I hate when I have to agree with something a conservative says, but if I needed information that would save someone close to me and I had a captive that had the info but wouldn't give it to me, I would stop at nothing to make him/her talk. I would have no moral qualms about it at all. The bastard "would" talk. It would just be a matter of how much pain they could endure before doing so. I would immediately stop torturing them when they told me what they knew. Quote
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