Omar Khadr

[Peter F]

Oleg - in my case you're preaching to the choir. Amen, brother.

[capricorn]

One very important thing that is missing from this thread is mention of Chris Speer by name the 28 yr old medic that Omar Khadr murdered.

Thanks Dog for reminding us that there is a victim to consider in the whole discussion.

As I still have some vestige of respect left for the justice system, I continue to refer to Khadr as the "alleged" murderer. I and many others are impatient to have him stand trial. Yet, whether he is found guilty or not guilty will not change my view that Khadr and his family are our enemies. Should he be found innocent for lack of evidence or some similar reason, there is no doubt in my mind he will be sent to Canada. What happens then? I have become so cynical about the Canadian justice system, I fear he will simply be released to the waiting arms of his family. Had he been killed instead of being captured, I'd have one less reason to resent the forces working against our national security.

A few days prior to his being murdered by Khadr Chris rescued two small Afgan children who were injured after straying into a mine field by walking into the mine field at great risk to himself . By all accounts Chris was someone his family and country could be very proud of unlike Omar Khadr .

Chris Speer is a victim of a heinous act and he paid the ultimate price after demonstrating his compassion for injured enemies. The enemy has no such compassion, as we have seen time and again.

[Oleg Bach]

Thanks Dog for reminding us that there is a victim to consider in the whole discussion.

As I still have some vestige of respect left for the justice system, I continue to refer to Khadr as the "alleged" murderer. I and many others are impatient to have him stand trial. Yet, whether he is found guilty or not guilty will not change my view that Khadr and his family are our enemies. Should he be found innocent for lack of evidence or some similar reason, there is no doubt in my mind he will be sent to Canada. What happens then? I have become so cynical about the Canadian justice system, I fear he will simply be released to the waiting arms of his family. Had he been killed instead of being captured, I'd have one less reason to resent the forces working against our national security.

Chris Speer is a victim of a heinous act and he paid the ultimate price after demonstrating his compassion for injured enemies. The enemy has no such compassion, as we have seen time and again.

Modernist Canadians who have no memory of war or no parents living affected by war are caught up in this romantic notion - that Canada is at war..that Harper is a "war time Prime Minister".....I wonder how much fuel would have been used back in world war 2 if everytime there was a death we flew the soldier's body back air force one style...

It's not a real war....sorry you adventures out there that want their lives to have meaning and feel they are part of a life and death struggle - we could pull out of Afghanistan and there would not be a ripple in the scheme of things. The last great war was the real deal - thousands fell - men that charged forward into a hail of bullets - someone breaking their neck if a truck rolled over would NOT have been front page news back in 1943....nor would a single death make the papers - this is a game similar to what I saw when kids attended RAVES - if someone over dosed and died on the dance floor the kids would feel it was a successful and important event - time for Canada to grow up....when you run short of food in Canada - and you are rationed your gas and whole towns loose all their young men in one day - then that is war - this is a game - and no offence to our military...that's the way I see this.

[DogOnPorch]

...we could pull out of Afghanistan and there would not be a ripple in the scheme of things.

Remember?

------------------------------------

...and now for something completely different...

[Guest American Woman]

Thanks Dog for reminding us that there is a victim to consider in the whole discussion.

I don't think most of us have difficulty remembering there was a victim; what we have to remember is that just because there was a victim doesn't mean Omar Khadr is guilty. We have to be careful, in our anger, not to lash out at whoever it's handy to blame just because it makes us feel better. Looking at the facts, Omar Khadr could very well be a victim too. I read about his life now, in Gitmo, with no end in sight, and it's truly hell on earth.

I don't know how many people read the article I linked to, but it sounds as if a huge percentage of the prisoners at Gitmo are innocent. Some were turned in by their own families for the reward money. Offer a few thousand dollars to desperate, dirt-poor people, and some will do anything to get it; and that includes accusing innocent people of being terrorists. Yet that's all the 'evidence' the U.S. has on some of those now living life in limbo at Gitmo.

Edited January 12, 2008 by American Woman

[Oleg Bach]

I don't think most of us have difficulty remembering there was a victim; what we have to remember is that just because there was a victim doesn't mean Omar Khadr is guilty. We have to be careful, in our anger, not to lash out at whoever it's handy to blame just because it makes us feel better. Looking at the facts, Omar Khadr could very well be a victim too. I read about his life now, in Gitmo, with no end in sight, and it's truly hell on earth.

I don't know how many people read the article I linked to, but it sounds as if a huge percentage of the prisoners at Gitmo are innocent. Some were turned in by their own families for the reward money. Offer a few thousand dollars to desperate, dirt-poor people, and some will do anything to get it; and that includes accusing innocent people of being terrorists. Yet that's all the 'evidence' the U.S. has on some of those now living life in limbo at Gitmo.

It's really quite bizzare that the American boycotted Cuba has a little section reserved as a type of seperate prison colony. That this place does not have to abide by American law or international rules. It reminds me very much of a base for pirates - more clearly a holding center run by privateers that are the American administration. Can you imagine if we had a colony of international prisoners held at the north end of Baffin Island - men held with out charge, with out clear evidence of any wrong doing..men who float in limbo with no one giving a damn. The worst part is that this type of captivity serves as a conditioning mechanizm for the world at large - the conditions the public to feel and think that this barbarity is normal. Incrimental destruction of the rule of law will in it's insidiousness over take all of us and negatively effect all human rights everywhere - it's as if beating dogs to death becomes exceptable again as it was 300 years ago - once the rights of one human being are forfiet..the rights of all of us will suffer in time - and that suffering will come - to all of us.............it's just a matter of time.

[DogOnPorch]

It's really quite bizzare that the American boycotted Cuba has a little section reserved as a type of seperate prison colony. That this place does not have to abide by American law or international rules. It reminds me very much of a base for pirates - more clearly a holding center run by privateers that are the American administration.

Guantanamo Bay was created...in perpetuity...after the Spanish American War (1903). It's not Tortuga...but that's not too far away.

----------------------------------------------------------

I lived on rum, I tell you. It's been meat and drink, and man and wife, to me...

---Robert Louis Stevenson

[Oleg Bach]

Guantanamo Bay was created...in perpetuity...after the Spanish American War (1903). It's not Tortuga...but that's not too far away.

----------------------------------------------------------

I lived on rum, I tell you. It's been meat and drink, and man and wife, to me...

---Robert Louis Stevenson

Guantanamo is evidence that some shifty old Cuban and some underworldish Yank creeps are conning the whole western world. Logic dictates that when Castro tossed out all the gamblers and abusers of 13 year old Cuban girls and boys- that- to leave this perpetual American holding in place means that there is really no true boycott of Cuba.. If there was not something sinsiter going on Guantanamo would not exist. This is as if Newfoundland was taken over by a dictator and that dictators prime advesary was allowed a nesting place on the island. Did Fidel say to the Americans..."we can both prosper as enemies in the eyes of the world" and did the Americans say - "great idea Fidel, but leave us a place of operation right in YOUR back bedroom" - something is rotten in the little commie nation of Cuba - and as most know..

- Communist have no money and to launch such a movement needs financing - and only capitalist can provide money to build the commie labour camp. Do you think that the massive slave labour camp of China - oringinated with out the help of capitalist investors? Of course the long and belated truth is in the pudding - LOOK! Now america with it's digital accountant click away and count the beans as the poor peasant in China does the labour while men in New York and Toronto etc. - prosper. The left has always done the dirty work of the right - look at that dupe Jack Layton - prime example..not to mention the head of the auto workers union cuddling up to that old Nazi atheist at Magna international.

[Rue]

The left has always done the dirty work of the right - look at that dupe Jack Layton - prime example..not to mention the head of the auto workers union cuddling up to that old Nazi atheist at Magna international.

I must say Oleg you have some interesting comments and what worries me is I think I understand what you are saying! No one can accuse you of being left or right that is for sure.

Look I only have one minor disagreement and I do not think you even intended it to sound the way you did. I do not doubt the conflict in Afghanistan is not a "coventional" war if that is what you mean by "real" but I am sure you would agree the conflict is real and the soldiers dying are for real.

I would make this arguement again. I think the days of conventional wars such as in WW1 and 2 are over. I think what we today have are in fact terror cells fighting conventional armies that are used as political police forces to try contain terrorists.

Consequently the conventions as to war are not designed for what we see happening. We have conventional armies being asked to act outside their traditional mandate and fight civilians.

These civilian terrorists are not soldiers. They do not wear uniforms and they break every law and convention known to man.

So on the one hand we expect our conventional armies to abide by traditional war conventions but when terrorists are in fact captured we are not sure what to do with them since they are in fact both domestic and international criminals.

We clearly need to set up an international court to detain and try terrorists based on a world convention.

We need to clearly define what a terrorist is and then determine who has a mandate as a sovereign nation to go after terrorists and what they do with them once captured.

In an ideal world we would have an international anti-terrorist army not accountable to any one sovereign nation but the UN and intenational laws but I am not sure the US, China or Russia would ever agree to such a thing. I also can not imagine a nation victimized by terrorists wanting to hand them over to an international tribunal so at best such laws could only apply when foreign nation armies occupy a country since no nation will give up its soverign right to capture and try terrorists on its own soil.

Some argue in the case of Kadr, he should have been turned over to the host country.

If you have a country that in effect has no government and legal system to take over such terrorists then should we have not have this international apperatus step in and take over?

Do we want any nation including the US to ignore international laws and just go anywhere at any time and capture people and try them.

Years ago the state of Israel took a huge risk mounting an operation to capture Adolph Eichman form Argentina precisely because Argentina had no intention of deporting him. It showed there are very serious flaws in international law if a country uses its sovereignty to protect terrorists which is why the US is arguing it can do what it does now.

So this brings us back again to the question-should we not have an international court with an international army that could enforce international laws on all countries? Is it possible?

[Melanie_]

American Woman, I did take the time to read the Rolling Stone article, and I agree with your posts on this thread. How can we just turn a blind eye to perpetual imprisonment and torture of people who have no legal recourse? Either prove they are guilty or let them prove they are innocent, but simply holding them in concentration camps goes against the "freedom" this war is supposed to be about.

Omar Khadr was a child soldier, trained from early childhood to fight for the cause his parents believed in. He was a victim of indoctrination and child abuse, and his parents should be held accountable for that; but he is accountable for his own actions. Let a trial determine what those actions were. Unless he is tried and convicted of something, if and when he gets out of Gitmo he is a free man to go where he wants.

[Guest American Woman]

Thank you, Melanie-- and I agree with everything you said.

[Oleg Bach]

Oleg - in my case you're preaching to the choir. Amen, brother.

Compassion and forgiveness is class- Omar is young enough to be reformed and in time will make a good and wise citizen - why waste our human resourses? Look at Georgey boy Bush - he executed a lot of poor dumb black guys when he was governor - and Clinton - allowing tainted blood :not fit for domestic use" - to be trucked up to Canada infecting thousands and destroying our great institution - the RED CROSS...not to metion that bunch of slimmy lawyers that defamed the Red Cross then with the left hand set up that private enterpise for profit called Canadian Blood Services. Omar is the least of the devils that we harbour/

[capricorn]

Compassion and forgiveness is class- Omar is young enough to be reformed and in time will make a good and wise citizen - why waste our human resourses?

I'm sure Omar's mother agrees with you. The question is, of which country will he be a good citizen of?

Omar is the least of the devils that we harbour/

The way things are going Omar will be free in Canada in a couple of years. Just wait till he hooks up with his cronies. Then we'll be able to judge where he fits on the "devil" scale.

[Oleg Bach]

I'm sure Omar's mother agrees with you. The question is, of which country will he be a good citizen of?

The way things are going Omar will be free in Canada in a couple of years. Just wait till he hooks up with his cronies. Then we'll be able to judge where he fits on the "devil" scale.

If we have a judicary and a government that are good managers...then there will be no hooking up with his cronies. I am sure the young man has had time to suffer and think..If it takes re-conditioning of his attitude and the curbing of what will be extreme bitterness - then let our so-called experts make a project of him. Let him be exposed to and mentored by some intelligent people not of the liberal variety. If we can redeem this young man - (and the prison beard has to go) it will be a victory for Canadians and will set a fine example for the rest of the world and other Muslim kids gone astray..use him - utilize him...and in the end he will appreciate us...still the burden of having killed someone if that is the case will weigh heavey on him if he has a brain...I don't know. I suspect he may be of limited intelligence.

[Guest American Woman]

He hasn't had his trial yet. It's ongoing now under the new military commissions act. Released transcripts here:

USMilitary Commissions website

I would like to add, that while these Commissions aren't the respectable Criminal Courts that the USofA is rightly admired for..they arn't Kangaroo Courts either, as I think, reading the available transcripts will show.

I wonder if this will have any bearing on what ultimately happens?

Btw, thanks for the links you've provided in this thread. Sometimes I get busy reading them and forget to respond.

Edited January 13, 2008 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

American my comments were not directed specifically at you-just rhetorical. Sorry. Should have clarified that. None of my comments were directed at what you said or challenged what you said. In fact I probably agreed with 99% of what you stated earlier.

Rue,

Thank you for your clarifications and comments; I appreciate it. Since we are in agreement regarding much of what we've both said, I'll just comment on the area where we do have a real difference of opinion:

Now I personally (slight difference of opinion here) do not think his conditions are inhumane in Gitmo but I fully concede leaving him in prison with no legal process and in isolation(which you are technically right can be considered inhumane under some conventions) indefinitely as did happen is legally unacceptable.

Some excerpts from the article I linked to:

...he was repeatedly brought into interrogation rooms on stretchers, in great pain. Pain medication was withheld, apparently to induce cooperation. He was ordered to clean floors on his hands and knees while his wounds were still wet. When he could walk again, he was forced to stand for hours at a time with his hands tied above a door frame. Interrogators put a bag over his head and held him still while attack dogs leapt at his chest. [This was before he was transferred to Gitmo, I believe, but it was still part of his treatment in the hands of the U.S.]

And:

On March 31st, 2003, Omar's security level was downgraded to "Level Four, with isolation." Everything in his cell was taken, and he spent a month without human contact in a windowless box kept at the approximate temperature of a refrigerator.

Guards and interrogators continually reminded Omar that no one in the world knew where he was. No one would know if they decided to kill him.

There's an account in the article of his hands and feet being shakled together for hours and then, after he urinated on the floor, he was swished around, still bound, like a mop to 'wipe up the urine.' Even his face was 'wiped' into the urine.

I think this is telling:

Several medical experts have reviewed the results of two mental-status exams administered to Omar. All concurred in their interpretations. Dr. Eric Trupin, who has written extensively on the effects of incarceration on adolescents, concluded that Omar has been traumatized and tortured to a degree that is, in Trupin's considerable experience, remarkable.

......It is my opinion, to a reasonable scientific certainty, that O.K.'s continued subjection to the threat of physical and mental abuse places him at significant risk for future psychiatric deterioration, which may include irreversible psychiatric symptoms and disorders, such as a psychosis with treatment-resistant hallucinations, paranoid delusions and persistent self-harming attempts.".

As for whether or not what O.K. said is believable or not:

Although the U.S. government denies mistreating Omar, neither Wilson nor Ahmad [professors of law at American University, where they run the International Human Rights Law Clinic] ever doubted the truth of what he told them. They had read hundreds of pages of detainee accounts of torture that independently corroborated one another.

As an American, I'm totally ashamed of the treatment my country is responsible for at Gitmo. I'm appalled at how many seemingly innocent people are being held there. I can't imagine having to endure such treatment and can't help but wonder how much anger and hatered is being generated there.

Edited January 13, 2008 by American Woman

[Oleg Bach]

Rue,

Thank you for your clarifications and comments; I appreciate it. Since we are in agreement regarding much of what we've both said, I'll just comment on the area where we do have a real difference of opinion:

Some excerpts from the article I linked to:

...he was repeatedly brought into interrogation rooms on stretchers, in great pain. Pain medication was withheld, apparently to induce cooperation. He was ordered to clean floors on his hands and knees while his wounds were still wet. When he could walk again, he was forced to stand for hours at a time with his hands tied above a door frame. Interrogators put a bag over his head and held him still while attack dogs leapt at his chest. [This was before he was transferred to Gitmo, I believe, but it was still part of his treatment in the hands of the U.S.]

And:

On March 31st, 2003, Omar's security level was downgraded to "Level Four, with isolation." Everything in his cell was taken, and he spent a month without human contact in a windowless box kept at the approximate temperature of a refrigerator.

Guards and interrogators continually reminded Omar that no one in the world knew where he was. No one would know if they decided to kill him.

There's an account in the article of his hands and feet being shakled together for hours and then, after he urinated on the floor, he was swished around, still bound, like a mop to 'wipe up the urine.' Even his face was 'wiped' into the urine.

I think this is telling:

Several medical experts have reviewed the results of two mental-status exams administered to Omar. All concurred in their interpretations. Dr. Eric Trupin, who has written extensively on the effects of incarceration on adolescents, concluded that Omar has been traumatized and tortured to a degree that is, in Trupin's considerable experience, remarkable.

......It is my opinion, to a reasonable scientific certainty, that O.K.'s continued subjection to the threat of physical and mental abuse places him at significant risk for future psychiatric deterioration, which may include irreversible psychiatric symptoms and disorders, such as a psychosis with treatment-resistant hallucinations, paranoid delusions and persistent self-harming attempts.".

As for whether or not what O.K. said is believable or not:

Although the U.S. government denies mistreating Omar, neither Wilson nor Ahmad [professors of law at American University, where they run the International Human Rights Law Clinic] ever doubted the truth of what he told them. They had read hundreds of pages of detainee accounts of torture that independently corroborated one another.

As an American, I'm totally ashamed of the treatment my country is responsible for at Gitmo. I'm appalled at how many seemingly innocent people are being held there. I can't imagine having to endure such treatment and can't help but wonder how much anger and hatered is being generated there.

Tormenting Omar was as useful as pricking a baby with pins and demanding to know where Bin Ladin is hiding. The kid was 15 - at that age he knows absolutely nothing! To torture this child under the pretext that information gathered would "save American lives" is mindless. One thing that I can say after looking at this lawless behaviour by Americans is -and it's more of a question - What motivates the ones in charge of this prison - and what motivates the persons who give the OK to toy with human beings as if they were less than dogs? My conclution is simple as I think about it - It is a sickness based in jealousy and the feeling of male inferiourity on the part of modernist Americans.

They are extremely jealous of the primative maleness of the prisoners. It is sadism plain and simple. What else could it be? You have some oil merchants sitting in the Oval Office who imagine themselves as tough guys. Men who have never done without. Men who are delluded by what they percieve is power...aging spoiled rich kids - who seek to find man hood by kicking a whimpering dog bound with a bag on it's head. Makes you wonder if the guys in Washington abused the family pets as children when they were bored.

[Sully]

Tormenting Omar was as useful as pricking a baby with pins and demanding to know where Bin Ladin is hiding. The kid was 15 - at that age he knows absolutely nothing! To torture this child under the pretext that information gathered would "save American lives" is mindless. One thing that I can say after looking at this lawless behaviour by Americans is -and it's more of a question - What motivates the ones in charge of this prison - and what motivates the persons who give the OK to toy with human beings as if they were less than dogs? My conclution is simple as I think about it - It is a sickness based in jealousy and the feeling of male inferiourity on the part of modernist Americans.

They are extremely jealous of the primative maleness of the prisoners. It is sadism plain and simple. What else could it be? You have some oil merchants sitting in the Oval Office who imagine themselves as tough guys. Men who have never done without. Men who are delluded by what they percieve is power...aging spoiled rich kids - who seek to find man hood by kicking a whimpering dog bound with a bag on it's head. Makes you wonder if the guys in Washington abused the family pets as children when they were bored.

Who ever stated that Om's knows where Binny is hiding. I am pretty sure that Bin Laden did not confide in Omar and explain how he might evade capture over the next few years, I think no one here has ever pretended that he would know that information, so keep stretching.

As for kids being 15 and not knowing anything, well I am sorry you have a lack of confidence in kids that age, I know I don't. I know at age 15 I could give my parents driving directions to 100s of different locations. I know at age 15 years and 364 days I was unable to operate a vehicle and one day later I was permitted my driver's license. I am sure that if society believed I was capable of driving a car, I was more than able to operate a machine gun, hey just point and click. Also at that age I knew not to steal, kill or treat others badly. (Yea I know this kid was brainwashed but I will not excuse his behaviour, ever). At age 15 I knew how to speak and therefore could communicate and form relationships with others, in my case I did not form relationships with terrorists.

So to summarize for you:

1.) He may know directions to training grounds or other areas of interest

2.) He may know some of the people who need to be tracked down

3.) He is a capable killer

If you want to find your answer to how people can treat others less than dogs, why don't you start speaking to the Taliban or the women under their rule....

As for your Dr. Phill assessment of the situation in Gitmo, I have to give it to you, you are creative as hell, but I also have to admit it gives me the willies where this stuff comes from.

[Guest American Woman]

I know at age 15 I could give my parents driving directions to 100s of different locations. I know at age 15 years and 364 days I was unable to operate a vehicle and one day later I was permitted my driver's license. I am sure that if society believed I was capable of driving a car, I was more than able to operate a machine gun, hey just point and click.

I think there's a bit more responsibility involved in operating a machine gun than just "point and click." I'm not sure what your point is, though. At 15 or 16, you couldn't join the military. You couldn't do that until you were 18. Why do you think that is? Also, as 15/16 you cannot engage in a legal binding contract. You cannot vote. You cannot drink a beer. You can't even get a tatoo without parental permission. You can't move out of your house without their permission, either. You'd end up in the court system. The reason for that is you are a minor. Society doesn't believe you are mature enough to take on those responsibilities.

Yet so many seem to think this 15 year old, who was raised the way he was, shouldn't have been where he was. As has been pointed out, there is no proof that he was in the compound in a military capacity. Furthermore, I'm sure he heard all about bombs being dropped on innocent civilians. Sanctions starving innocent civilians. Our deaths being mourned, theirs being dismissed as "collateral damage." I think that may have made us look a bit wrong to him.

Also at that age I knew not to steal, kill or treat others badly. (Yea I know this kid was brainwashed but I will not excuse his behaviour, ever). At age 15 I knew how to speak and therefore could communicate and form relationships with others, in my case I did not form relationships with terrorists.

How did you know those things? Because you were raised with those standards. You were taught them. And of course you didn't form relationships with terrorists because your parents didn't move you in with terrorists. On the one hand, you know this kid was brainwashed, yet you expect him, in spite of being brainwashed, to have known all the things you know. You say you will not excuse his behavior. What behavior specifically will you not "excuse," especially in light of your knowledge that he was brainwashed? Do you really think people are responsible for their actions when they've been brainwashed? How about understanding-- do you at least understand why he would be where he was?

Furthermore, we expect our troops to obey orders. We expect our troops to fight in a war whether they think that war is the right thing or not. We expect them to gun down innocent civilians if they have to, even if they don't believe it's right. If they refuse to serve/refuse to carry out orders, there are dire consequences to pay, and our societies as a whole would not support them, but would do quite the opposite. Yet you're expecting a 15 year old boy to make the decision not to do what was expected of him under the same circumstances. You think he should have done what he should have known was right in spite of what was expected of him.

So to summarize for you:

1.) He may know directions to training grounds or other areas of interest

2.) He may know some of the people who need to be tracked down

3.) He is a capable killer

Bin Laden's son was in those training camps too. Why is he free to marry a Brit and apply for a visa to live there? Wouldn't any person who's spent time in these terrorist training camps potentially know the things you claim Omar Khadr might know? But do you really think they would give this information out, any valuable information out, to a child? Furthermore, do you think they aren't constantly changing the location of training grounds and/or other areas of interest? Bin Laden was supposidly constantly moving around.

As for being a "capable killer," what defines that? Wouldn't anyone with a gun in their hand be "capable" of killing?

If you want to find your answer to how people can treat others less than dogs, why don't you start speaking to the Taliban or the women under their rule....

I'd rather start with my government since I can have an effect on what my government does; since my government represents me; since my government is supposed to do the right thing. We are supposed to be the civilized ones. We aren't a third world/developing nation. We are all, for the most part, educated.

But if we ever want things to change, we have to start with understanding why things are the way they are. Take this 15 year old boy. If we would have understood how/why he ended up where he was, we could have treated him in accordance. We could have treated his wounds they way they should have been treated, shown him we aren't the monsters we're made out to be, gained his trust. Then, if he did have any information, it would have been much more likely that he would have shared it with us. Instead, we did the opposite. Showed him what barbarians we can be; most likely reinforcing everything he'd been told about us throughout his life.

The treatment at Gitmo is inexcusable. Going against the Geneva Convention and treating a 16 year old as an adult is inexcusable. Deeming someone guilty with nothing but circumstantial evidence is inexcusable. Offering a reward of several thousand dollars to poor, deperate people for naming 'suspected terrorists,' and then holding people at Gitmo based on nothing but these poor, desperate peoples' naming them as suspected terrorists (for which they collected thousands of dollars), is inexcusable.

Edited January 15, 2008 by American Woman

[Keepitsimple]

Rue,

Thank you for your clarifications and comments; I appreciate it. Since we are in agreement regarding much of what we've both said, I'll just comment on the area where we do have a real difference of opinion:

Some excerpts from the article I linked to:

...he was repeatedly brought into interrogation rooms on stretchers, in great pain. Pain medication was withheld, apparently to induce cooperation. He was ordered to clean floors on his hands and knees while his wounds were still wet. When he could walk again, he was forced to stand for hours at a time with his hands tied above a door frame. Interrogators put a bag over his head and held him still while attack dogs leapt at his chest. [This was before he was transferred to Gitmo, I believe, but it was still part of his treatment in the hands of the U.S.]

And:

On March 31st, 2003, Omar's security level was downgraded to "Level Four, with isolation." Everything in his cell was taken, and he spent a month without human contact in a windowless box kept at the approximate temperature of a refrigerator.

Guards and interrogators continually reminded Omar that no one in the world knew where he was. No one would know if they decided to kill him.

There's an account in the article of his hands and feet being shakled together for hours and then, after he urinated on the floor, he was swished around, still bound, like a mop to 'wipe up the urine.' Even his face was 'wiped' into the urine.

I think this is telling:

Several medical experts have reviewed the results of two mental-status exams administered to Omar. All concurred in their interpretations. Dr. Eric Trupin, who has written extensively on the effects of incarceration on adolescents, concluded that Omar has been traumatized and tortured to a degree that is, in Trupin's considerable experience, remarkable.

......It is my opinion, to a reasonable scientific certainty, that O.K.'s continued subjection to the threat of physical and mental abuse places him at significant risk for future psychiatric deterioration, which may include irreversible psychiatric symptoms and disorders, such as a psychosis with treatment-resistant hallucinations, paranoid delusions and persistent self-harming attempts.".

As for whether or not what O.K. said is believable or not:

Although the U.S. government denies mistreating Omar, neither Wilson nor Ahmad [professors of law at American University, where they run the International Human Rights Law Clinic] ever doubted the truth of what he told them. They had read hundreds of pages of detainee accounts of torture that independently corroborated one another.

As an American, I'm totally ashamed of the treatment my country is responsible for at Gitmo. I'm appalled at how many seemingly innocent people are being held there. I can't imagine having to endure such treatment and can't help but wonder how much anger and hatered is being generated there.

You should have more pride and confidence in your country and the soldiers that serve it. Your country has been polarized since 9/11. The Left, which dominates your newspapers, HATES Bush and will stop at nothing to exacerbate any hint of military impropriety. There have been many wild accusations about "torture" at Gitmo. Many have been tied to Al Quaeda's own handbook which says that if they get captured by the Infidels, look for ways to accuse them of torture - because there are always organizations like Amnesty International that will lap up those accusations. We've already learned that no one flushed a Koran down the toilet - it was actually dropped by a prisoner who then blamed a guard. Here's an article by Time magazine back in 2005 that details the interrogation of Mohammed al Qahtani, who is widely believed to be the so-called 20th hijacker, a compatriot of Osama bin Laden and a man who had tried to enter the U.S. in August 2001 to take part in the Sept. 11 attacks. While the interrogation procedures were not pleasant, they were not physically scarring or inhumane. If this is the extent of the treatment of the 20th hijacker, why would they even bother with someone like Omar Khadr? Read the attached article to see what lengths Gitmo took to satisfy the religious rights of prisoners. At the very same time, Danny Pearl's head was being sawed off while he was still alive.

Here's a link to the Time article which I strongly suggest you read: http://www.time.com/time/press_releases/ar...1071230,00.html

Here's an excerpt from the story:

Jun. 12, 2005

TIME Exclusive: Inside the Wire at Gitmo

New York � TIME has obtained the first documented look inside the highly classified realm of military interrogations since the Gitmo Camp at Guantanamo Bay opened. The document is a secret 84-page interrogation log that details the interrogation of �Detainee 063� at Guantanamo Bay. It is a remarkable look into the range of techniques and methods used for the interrogation of Mohammed al Qahtani, who is widely believed to be the so-called 20th hijacker, a compatriot of Osama bin Laden and a man who had tried to enter the U.S. in August 2001 to take part in the Sept. 11 attacks. TIME�s report, by Adam Zagorin and Michael Duffy, appears in this week�s issue (on newsstands Monday).

A Night Watchman�s Diary: The log reads like a night watchman�s diary. It is a sometimes shocking and often mundane hour-by-hour, even minute-by-minute account of a campaign to extract information. The log records every time al- Qahtani eats, sleeps, exercises or goes to the bathroom and every time he complies with or refuses his interrogators� requests. The detainee�s physical condition is frequently checked by medical corpsmen�sometimes as often as three times a day�which indicates either spectacular concern about al-Qahtani�s health or persistent worry about just how much stress he can take. Although the log does not appear obviously censored, it is also plainly incomplete: there are numerous gaps in the notes about what is said and what is happening in the interrogation booth beyond details like �Detainee taken to bathroom and walked for 10 minutes,� TIME reports.

Chief Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita tells TIME that the log was compiled by various uniformed interrogators and observers on the Pentagon�s Joint Task Force at Gitmo as the interrogation proceeded. It is stamped SECRET ORCON, a military acronym for a document that is supposed to remain with the organization that created it. A Pentagon official who has seen the log describes it as the �kind of document that was never meant to leave Gitmo.�

Winter 2002-03 � Additional Techniques Approved: Despite the information gaps, the log offers a rare glimpse into the darker reaches of intelligence gathering, in which teams that specialize in extracting information by almost any means match wits and wills with men who are trained to keep quiet at almost any cost. It spans 50 days in the winter of 2002-03, from November to early January, a critical period at Gitmo, during which 16 additional interrogation techniques were approved by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld for use on a select few detainees, including al-Qahtani, TIME reports.

More Muscular Strategies: Al-Qahtani�s resilience under pressure in the fall of 2002 led top officials at Gitmo to petition Washington for more muscular �counter resistance strategies.� On Dec. 2, Rumsfeld approved 16 of 19 stronger coercive methods. Now the interrogators could use stress strategies like standing for prolonged periods, isolation for as long as 30 days, removal of clothing, forced shaving of facial hair, playing on �individual phobias� (such as dogs) and �mild, non-injurious physical contact such as grabbing, poking in the chest with the finger and light pushing.� According to the log, al-Qahtani experienced several of those over the next five weeks. The techniques Rumsfeld balked at included �use of a wet towel or dripping water to induce the misperception of suffocation.� �Our Armed Forces are trained,� a Pentagon memo on the changes read, �to a standard of interrogation that reflects a tradition of restraint.� Nevertheless, the log shows that interrogators poured bottles of water on al-Qahtani�s head when he refused to drink. Interrogators called this game �Drink Water or Wear It.�

Dripping Water or Playing Christina Aguilera Music: After the new measures are approved, the mood in al-Qahtani�s interrogation booth changes dramatically. The interrogation sessions lengthen. The quizzing now starts at midnight, and when Detainee 063 dozes off, interrogators rouse him by dripping water on his head or playing Christina Aguilera music. According to the log, his handlers at one point perform a puppet show �satirizing the detainee�s involvement with al-Qaeda.� He is taken to a new interrogation booth, which is decorated with pictures of 9/11 victims, American flags and red lights. He has to stand for the playing of the U.S. national anthem. His head and beard are shaved. He is returned to his original interrogation booth. A picture of a 9/11 victim is taped to his trousers. Al-Qahtani repeats that he will �not talk until he is interrogated the proper way.� At 7 a.m. on Dec. 4, after a 12-hour, all-night session, he is put to bed for a four-hour nap, TIME reports.

Invasion of Space by Female: Over the next few days, al-Qahtani is subjected to a drill known as Invasion of Space by a Female, and he becomes especially agitated by the close physical presence of a woman. Then, around 2 p.m. on Dec. 6, comes another small breakthrough. He asks his handlers for some paper. �I will tell the truth,� he says. �I am doing this to get out of here.� He finally explains how he got to Afghanistan in the first place and how he met with bin Laden. In return, the interrogators honor requests from him to have a blanket and to turn off the air conditioner. Soon enough, the pressure ratchets up again. Various strategies of intimidation are employed anew. The log reveals that a dog is present, but no details are given beyond a hazy reference to a disagreement between the military police and the dog handler. Agitated, al-Qahtani takes back the story he told the day before about meeting bin Laden, TIME reports.

A 24-Hour Time Out: But a much more serious problem develops on Dec. 7: a medical corpsman reports that al-Qahtani is becoming seriously dehydrated, the result of his refusal to take water regularly. He is given an IV drip, and a doctor is summoned. An unprecedented 24-hour time out is called, but even as al-Qahtani is put under a doctor�s care, music is played to �prevent detainee from sleeping.� Nine hours later, a medical corpsman checks al-Qahtani�s pulse and finds it �unusually slow.� An electrocardiogram is administered by a doctor, and after al-Qahtani is transferred to a hospital, a CT scan is performed. A second doctor is consulted. Al-Qahtani�s heartbeat is regular but slow: 35 beats a minute. He is placed in isolation and hooked up to a heart monitor, TIME reports.

Has Big Story to Tell: Over the next month, the interrogators experiment with other tactics. They strip-search him and briefly make him stand nude. They tell him to bark like a dog and growl at pictures of terrorists. They hang pictures of scantily clad women around his neck. A female interrogator so annoys al-Qahtani that he tells his captors he wants to commit suicide and asks for a crayon to write a will. At one stage, an Arabic-speaking serviceman, posing as a fellow detainee, is brought to Camp X-Ray for a short stay in an effort to gain al-Qahtani�s confidence. The log reports that al-Qahtani makes several comments to interrogators that imply he has a big story to tell, but interrogators report that he seems either too scared or simply unwilling, to tell it. On Jan. 10, 2003, al-Qahtani says he knows nothing of terrorists but volunteers to return to the gulf states and act as a double agent for the U.S. in exchange for his freedom. Five days later, Rumsfeld�s harsher measures are revoked after military lawyers in Washington raised questions about their use and efficacy, TIME reports.

[Sully]

I think there's a bit more responsibility involved in operating a machine gun than just "point and click." I'm not sure what your point is, though. At 15 or 16, you couldn't join the military. You couldn't do that until you were 18. Why do you think that is? Also, as 15/16 you cannot engage in a legal binding contract. You cannot vote. You cannot drink a beer. You can't even get a tatoo without parental permission. You can't move out of your house without their permission, either. You'd end up in the court system. The reason for that is you are a minor. Society doesn't believe you are mature enough to take on those responsibilities.

Actually no there is no more responsibility in operating a machine gun than "point and click", have you ever shot a gun?? I have, I have done it many times, just for fun. The difference between me and the many, many, many gun toting adolescents I see on the TV is that I have the ideology in my head NOT to shoot at other humans. I mean why else would a little itty bitty kid be carrying a machine gun???? You think this kid built the gun from scratch in his sandbox and is playing a little more lethal version of cops and robbers with his friends, or do you think more along the lines of myself and realize that this kid has been trained to use the weapon.

As to my point and not fully sure how you could have missed this, was that in Oleg's previous post he says that at 15 years old he KNOWS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. I say he knows more than enough and then I went onto the point of examining the simplicity of a gun design and how easily it can be used by children who are much younger than 15 years old and that there would have been training involved. I don't even think terrorists would stand in front a little guy holding an AK-47 without him having some prior training. MY POINT IS KIDS CAN USE GUNS AND USE THEM EFFECTIVELY.

I think its great that you keep applying Western standards (even tho these differ round the world) and think that somehow applies to the rest of the world. I would most certainly say that it does not apply to most parts in the world.

At 15 or 16 I cannot join the military, you are correct, but I can be terrorist starting a much younger age....

Entering legal contracts....whats your point????

I cannot vote but I can drive, I would saying driving is more of a responsibilty than voting. I know many people who vote for someone and they cannot explain why they do so and thats people well into their adult years....

Cannot drink beer, well that depends on where you live in the western world.....

etc......

But see American woman, some parts of the world could care less about Western Standards, so please tell me how our standards should apply to people who do not believe in them. Like I stated before kids in my opinion are far more capable then we expect.

How did you know those things? Because you were raised with those standards. You were taught them. And of course you didn't form relationships with terrorists because your parents didn't move you in with terrorists. On the one hand, you know this kid was brainwashed, yet you expect him, in spite of being brainwashed, to have known all the things you know. You say you will not excuse his behavior. What behavior specifically will you not "excuse," especially in light of your knowledge that he was brainwashed? Do you really think people are responsible for their actions when they've been brainwashed? How about understanding-- do you at least understand why he would be where he was?

Absolutely, I knew my values from my family and the society around me and those are the values that I still hold onto, probably just like you. I think for me they are the correct values.

Of course young children and have to be indoctrinated into these beliefs and because he has been bred this way I EXPECT him to love his belief system just like I love mine. I do not EXPECT him to know or care for anything that I know. Just read what his parents think of Canada, in fact I EXPECT quite opposite, hence thats why he was captured in a foreign land.

I could careless about the "brainwashing" excuse, if you allow that, then it will apply to almost every bad deed done by man.

American woman, would you excuse Nazi's of the Holocaust, do you really think that hating Jews was not bred into these guys so they could commit such atrocities. I am pretty sure that most of the pre-Nazi's were not dreaming of creating concetration camps during their teen years???

Would you excuse a pedophile, because they were abused when they were younger???

Would you excuse a drug addict for killing a person during a robbery so they can afford their next fix???

The reasons for doing what people do, should never allow leniency for their actions. I am not saying kill Omar, but I am also not saying this kid is anywhere near a victim either.

I absolutely understand why Omar is the way he is and I also understand that he is far more capable of horrible things then you will ever believe.

Furthermore, we expect our troops to obey orders. We expect our troops to fight in a war whether they think that war is the right thing or not. We expect them to gun down innocent civilians if they have to, even if they don't believe it's right. If they refuse to serve/refuse to carry out orders, there are dire consequences to pay, and our societies as a whole would not support them, but would do quite the opposite. Yet you're expecting a 15 year old boy to make the decision not to do what was expected of him under the same circumstances. You think he should have done what he should have known was right in spite of what was expected of him.

Bin Laden's son was in those training camps too. Why is he free to marry a Brit and apply for a visa to live there? Wouldn't any person who's spent time in these terrorist training camps potentially know the things you claim Omar Khadr might know? But do you really think they would give this information out, any valuable information out, to a child? Furthermore, do you think they aren't constantly changing the location of training grounds and/or other areas of interest? Bin Laden was supposidly constantly moving around.

Its funny you sit on your computer far far far removed anything even remotely dangerous and you have these expectations of how wars should be fought. Its just absolutely goofy. I do agree and hope that our soldiers could always conduct themselves in a manner that would make us all proud. I am just not gullible enough to have politicians or people without any real understanding of war lecture anyone about how it should play out. I would never condone our soldiers killing innocents and I hope that all soldiers would have the courage to reject any orders that would ask them to do so. As again I will say I never had any EXPECTATIONS of Omars actions to conform to WESTERN STANDARDS, in fact I am sure he does not share our version of "RIGHT". I do understand he is far more capable of harm and will not treat him like an infant, like some others on this board.

Bin Laden's son, who cares about him, is he THREAT?? Maybe he already gave up valuable information, maybe he hates his father, I don't know. Maybe for Britain its safer to keep your enemies closer. Maybe he is a nice guy. How many kids does Binny, have 50+. Don't know don't care, but if he is a threat I am glad knowing that people are doing things in the background to make us safer.

As I stated before I do not think this kid knows the truth about the Roswell Alien landing or who killed JFK. What I do know, since I think that he is not inferior to any other child his age on the planet, I do think he could know where training camps could be or have been located. That is synonmous to me at that age, directing my father to numerous locations around the province of BC, although he may possess better navigation skills. Secondly, people train these kids, people have names, or certain physical charateristics, some of the people he met could have been very high up on s^&tlist. Of course they are moving around, of course there are no road signs saying "Ahkbar Terrorist Camp 20KM ahead". But there are only so many locations that are untouched by human settlement and for price people talk. Haven't you watched CSI, one small clue or tip and the dominos can fall one after another.

As for being a "capable killer," what defines that? Wouldn't anyone with a gun in their hand be "capable" of killing?

Come on are you serious. Its the ideology in the head of the person holding the gun.

But if we ever want things to change, we have to start with understanding why things are the way they are. Take this 15 year old boy. If we would have understood how/why he ended up where he was, we could have treated him in accordance. We could have treated his wounds they way they should have been treated, shown him we aren't the monsters we're made out to be, gained his trust. Then, if he did have any information, it would have been much more likely that he would have shared it with us. Instead, we did the opposite. Showed him what barbarians we can be; most likely reinforcing everything he'd been told about us throughout his life.

Seriously, let's kill him with kindness and he can kill us with grenades.

I have never supported beating and torture, but this kid should not receive any more help then we would give a poor person walking our streets right now. I would rather rehabilitate those people than the enemy. This kid would have to ask for help before I would voluntarily give it to him.

The treatment at Gitmo is inexcusable. Going against the Geneva Convention and treating a 16 year old as an adult is inexcusable. Deeming someone guilty with nothing but circumstantial evidence is inexcusable. Offering a reward of several thousand dollars to poor, deperate people for naming 'suspected terrorists,' and then holding people at Gitmo based on nothing but these poor, desperate peoples' naming them as suspected terrorists (for which they collected thousands of dollars), is inexcusable.

Not a soldier = No Geneva Convention protection

I have always hoped Canadian courts would treat minors as adults when warranted, I feel the same for Omar, he does not get a free pass from me.

Offering money is the only way to get information out of locals, for fear of reprisal. Could they lie, sure, could they tell the truth, absolutely.

As far as I know according to Michael Moore's latest left leaning movie, people at GITMO receive better health care than the average American.

[Borg]

Snip ....Omar is young enough to be reformed and in time will make a good and wise citizen - why waste our human resourses?

I agree.

Set him free in Pakistan and do not let him into Canada.

Send his family as well. Probably save ourselves quite a few tax dollars to boot.

Borg