Sully

What evidence does Canada/CSIS treat "brown/beige/tan/etc...." "citizens" differently than white ones overseas. In fact I would say that they are treated exactly the same as whites. Its common to say you hate Nazis and Hitler (whites), Stalin and communists (whites) and the list goes on....As a "WHITE-German background" I have never forgiven other "WHITE" groups such as Hitler Youth for the atrocities that they would grow into. They were manipulated like Omar I am sure, but I do not forgive Omar because he has a darker skin pigment, nor do I pretend he cannot be held accoutable for his actions. If you pardon him, please be fair and pardon Hitler Youth, will you do that? Has Canada forgiven Hitler Youth (WHITE)? Has CSIS (even tho they were not around then) forgiven Hitler Youth (WHITE)? I draw the exact same comparison I depise them both, so try not make a race issue out of it.

Yes it does take into consideration that oil is a non-renewable resource. Oil is a commodity that is traded on markets and thats why you see oil prices fluctuate daily. All bits of information are inputted into making up the price with more immediate concerns being the cause of the current oil prices. ie. supply/demand and potential wars, etc..... As time goes on and supplies diminish, prices will shoot way up, when non-renewable becomes the buzz word. As for people comparing gas prices to Europe and saying we have it so good, I would like us ot start comparing our gas prices to Venezuela, where they pay $0.14/gallon. I would say we have it really bad.

Actually no there is no more responsibility in operating a machine gun than "point and click", have you ever shot a gun?? I have, I have done it many times, just for fun. The difference between me and the many, many, many gun toting adolescents I see on the TV is that I have the ideology in my head NOT to shoot at other humans. I mean why else would a little itty bitty kid be carrying a machine gun???? You think this kid built the gun from scratch in his sandbox and is playing a little more lethal version of cops and robbers with his friends, or do you think more along the lines of myself and realize that this kid has been trained to use the weapon. As to my point and not fully sure how you could have missed this, was that in Oleg's previous post he says that at 15 years old he KNOWS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. I say he knows more than enough and then I went onto the point of examining the simplicity of a gun design and how easily it can be used by children who are much younger than 15 years old and that there would have been training involved. I don't even think terrorists would stand in front a little guy holding an AK-47 without him having some prior training. MY POINT IS KIDS CAN USE GUNS AND USE THEM EFFECTIVELY. I think its great that you keep applying Western standards (even tho these differ round the world) and think that somehow applies to the rest of the world. I would most certainly say that it does not apply to most parts in the world. At 15 or 16 I cannot join the military, you are correct, but I can be terrorist starting a much younger age.... Entering legal contracts....whats your point???? I cannot vote but I can drive, I would saying driving is more of a responsibilty than voting. I know many people who vote for someone and they cannot explain why they do so and thats people well into their adult years.... Cannot drink beer, well that depends on where you live in the western world..... etc...... But see American woman, some parts of the world could care less about Western Standards, so please tell me how our standards should apply to people who do not believe in them. Like I stated before kids in my opinion are far more capable then we expect. Absolutely, I knew my values from my family and the society around me and those are the values that I still hold onto, probably just like you. I think for me they are the correct values. Of course young children and have to be indoctrinated into these beliefs and because he has been bred this way I EXPECT him to love his belief system just like I love mine. I do not EXPECT him to know or care for anything that I know. Just read what his parents think of Canada, in fact I EXPECT quite opposite, hence thats why he was captured in a foreign land. I could careless about the "brainwashing" excuse, if you allow that, then it will apply to almost every bad deed done by man. American woman, would you excuse Nazi's of the Holocaust, do you really think that hating Jews was not bred into these guys so they could commit such atrocities. I am pretty sure that most of the pre-Nazi's were not dreaming of creating concetration camps during their teen years??? Would you excuse a pedophile, because they were abused when they were younger??? Would you excuse a drug addict for killing a person during a robbery so they can afford their next fix??? The reasons for doing what people do, should never allow leniency for their actions. I am not saying kill Omar, but I am also not saying this kid is anywhere near a victim either. I absolutely understand why Omar is the way he is and I also understand that he is far more capable of horrible things then you will ever believe. Its funny you sit on your computer far far far removed anything even remotely dangerous and you have these expectations of how wars should be fought. Its just absolutely goofy. I do agree and hope that our soldiers could always conduct themselves in a manner that would make us all proud. I am just not gullible enough to have politicians or people without any real understanding of war lecture anyone about how it should play out. I would never condone our soldiers killing innocents and I hope that all soldiers would have the courage to reject any orders that would ask them to do so. As again I will say I never had any EXPECTATIONS of Omars actions to conform to WESTERN STANDARDS, in fact I am sure he does not share our version of "RIGHT". I do understand he is far more capable of harm and will not treat him like an infant, like some others on this board. Bin Laden's son, who cares about him, is he THREAT?? Maybe he already gave up valuable information, maybe he hates his father, I don't know. Maybe for Britain its safer to keep your enemies closer. Maybe he is a nice guy. How many kids does Binny, have 50+. Don't know don't care, but if he is a threat I am glad knowing that people are doing things in the background to make us safer. As I stated before I do not think this kid knows the truth about the Roswell Alien landing or who killed JFK. What I do know, since I think that he is not inferior to any other child his age on the planet, I do think he could know where training camps could be or have been located. That is synonmous to me at that age, directing my father to numerous locations around the province of BC, although he may possess better navigation skills. Secondly, people train these kids, people have names, or certain physical charateristics, some of the people he met could have been very high up on s^&tlist. Of course they are moving around, of course there are no road signs saying "Ahkbar Terrorist Camp 20KM ahead". But there are only so many locations that are untouched by human settlement and for price people talk. Haven't you watched CSI, one small clue or tip and the dominos can fall one after another. Come on are you serious. Its the ideology in the head of the person holding the gun. Seriously, let's kill him with kindness and he can kill us with grenades. I have never supported beating and torture, but this kid should not receive any more help then we would give a poor person walking our streets right now. I would rather rehabilitate those people than the enemy. This kid would have to ask for help before I would voluntarily give it to him. Not a soldier = No Geneva Convention protection I have always hoped Canadian courts would treat minors as adults when warranted, I feel the same for Omar, he does not get a free pass from me. Offering money is the only way to get information out of locals, for fear of reprisal. Could they lie, sure, could they tell the truth, absolutely. As far as I know according to Michael Moore's latest left leaning movie, people at GITMO receive better health care than the average American.

Who ever stated that Om's knows where Binny is hiding. I am pretty sure that Bin Laden did not confide in Omar and explain how he might evade capture over the next few years, I think no one here has ever pretended that he would know that information, so keep stretching. As for kids being 15 and not knowing anything, well I am sorry you have a lack of confidence in kids that age, I know I don't. I know at age 15 I could give my parents driving directions to 100s of different locations. I know at age 15 years and 364 days I was unable to operate a vehicle and one day later I was permitted my driver's license. I am sure that if society believed I was capable of driving a car, I was more than able to operate a machine gun, hey just point and click. Also at that age I knew not to steal, kill or treat others badly. (Yea I know this kid was brainwashed but I will not excuse his behaviour, ever). At age 15 I knew how to speak and therefore could communicate and form relationships with others, in my case I did not form relationships with terrorists. So to summarize for you: 1.) He may know directions to training grounds or other areas of interest 2.) He may know some of the people who need to be tracked down 3.) He is a capable killer If you want to find your answer to how people can treat others less than dogs, why don't you start speaking to the Taliban or the women under their rule.... As for your Dr. Phill assessment of the situation in Gitmo, I have to give it to you, you are creative as hell, but I also have to admit it gives me the willies where this stuff comes from.

Canada is a country with finite resources, both financially and medically, read again Oleg, FINITE. As far as I can see Canada is not in the best position to free up any medical care for this gentlemen who is ILLEGALLY remaining in Canada. I am sure that even if his community pays for his medical treatment, it will NOT be a medical doctor or hospital bed from India that cares for him. IF this man has any medical issues, it will be Canadian doctors and Canadian hospital beds that will pulled from the system to tend to him, which is the exact opposite of what I want. Maybe Oleg if you do not mind your family waiting for treatment behind Laibar, thats something that you are ok with, I am not. Canadians and would be immigrants who are legal in Canada, should always be the sole focus of our medical system, period. Of course as soon as the Legal approach does not work, people start to grasp at straws and then claim that racism comes into to play, awwww boo hoo. Well here is a little challenge to you Ole to do a little research, I did a little bit of research (this might surprise you) and found out that "White would be immigrants" have been removed from Canada under deportation orders before. Man those racists in the immigration system make ya sick eh, think of it, no one is safe anymore. As for your beggar on the street, whats your point, we are talking solely of Laibar Singh right, was the beggar Laibar Singh, if he was please deport him. See the funny thing is, we would not have this conversation if Laibar Singh met Canadian requirements to stay in Canada.

I remember a quote from my business law professor (a very well respected lawyer here in BC) talking about our laws and its relation to an equitable outcome coming from the courts. "If you want justice try religion". Day in and day we see verdicts handed out in the courts here in Canada which have defied logic. Weak sentences for serious criminals. Focus on rehabilitation of perpetrators and not focus on the support of the victims or their families. That alone makes me feel that our "principled" has become unprincipled long ago. As for the detention of a one Omar Khadr, we can all agree that he was in a foreign land that he should not have been and I am confident that he was NOT helping locals build irrigation networks. He was bred from a puppy to be a pitbull by his evil handlers amd I am positive he has more knowledge than you and I will ever know about. That knowledge may be more sensitive than anything we suspect. There are many things governments do not tell their citizens and for good reason, things that need to be kept in the dark. 1.) THE INFORMATION MAY COMPRISE CURRENT MILITARY OPERATIONS WHICH SUPERCEDES THE NEED TO HAVE ALL YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED. A COURT MAY NOT BE ABLE TO SUPPRESS THE INFORMATION LEAK AS EASILY AS THIS TYPE OF DETENTION. Afterall if Omar is such a minimal threat as you may suspect, then why waste the money on detention of such a non-threat.

As far as I know TREASON still has meaning in Canada, but with an impotent justice system that Canada employs, I hope that the US keeps him and keeps him locked up indefinitely. It's funny that if this kid were a white or black kid and went on a mall shooting spree, a lot people would be asking "Where were the parents in all this" and try to determine the WHY???. Yet we know exactly how the parents feel and their values and thats why I can alleviate my conscience and be rest assured that this young POS (piece of s&%t) would grow into an old POS and I appreciate that he is spending his days behind bars. And for all those who feel he is denied due process, if he ever sees daylight then invite him to stay at your place cause I do not want a POS like that in my neighbourhood. I hope none of you live close to South Vancouver. Lastly I pray that people like this can be stripped of their Citizenship and deported.

Also you forgot to include the immense sizes of the countries as well, think of the vast distances that these people must travel, since all of these countries combined could fit into Quebec with 3.5 times Quebec's population.

Well the way to make China and India stop comsuming as much as they do is to curb the West's consumption, their industries will not belch out as much pollution if there was no demand for it. Right now China's and India's economies are booming because of the cheap cost of labour within the manufacturing industries. Try find something nowadays that is not stamped "Made in China" or clothes that are not made in India. I would never agree to consuming less when others around me consume more, its human nature and the really great thing about it, is that it will eventually lead to conflict. YAY we never learn from our history...

I absolutely agree Europeans pay more for gas than Canadians and then again I hope thats always the case. But like almost all fuel prices worldwide, a large portion of the price is due to government taxes. Taxes that are collected to be used in whatever way the government would like and I for one want as little money going to the government as possible. The only real way for a country to be green is for the population to believe in acting in a responsible way. Everyone has to do their part, that means drive alot less, consume a lot less etc.....and not have the government mandate a bunch of phony promises to get elected. As for your car per capita breakdown, what is your source of that information and please have a quote from some unbiased source (ie something other than a pro-green site). As for Euros travelling more by rail, I can believe it because they have the population density to support a rail system (more frequent stops = more frequent travellers). Europeans could very well take more urban transport and buy smaller cars due to the fact that they have much older cities which are more tightly packed and that leads to smaller cars and more city transport due to convenience and not out of a green conscience.

Well truthfully I believe Canada or North America in general would prefer to use the oil of the Middle East and other areas before we use our own. I believe its a smart move politically and ecomonically for a few future reasons. 1.) The current oil companies are already making huge profits on foreign oil and are not even close to producing the maximum domestic output of oil. With China and India coming online, I would make the assumption that the Middle East has maybe another 50-70 years of dominance in the oil industry before the wells dry up on this finite natural resource. This will really benefit the domestic oil boys at that time as the world supply of oil will drop and their hands will be forced to invest domestically. Now the companies can live longer and justify much higher prices for producing the oil for their domestic markets and also these companies will be able to export for outrageous prices as well. These companies will be "JUSTIFIED" to charge higher prices since there is less of a world supply and also these companies will now need to build domestic refineries and do the research for new locations using North American talent. Just remember that North Americans earn much much much more than their Middle East counterparts. For the North American consumer at that time it will be win and lose, it will be a win since they have access to oil and a loss because they will pay alot for it. 2.) As bad as this may sound, a Middle East without oil is a best case scenario for the Western world as we can now build a wall around it (not something I promote) and let them do whatever they want to each other. Once the wall is built all we need to do is keep a watchful eye on any nuclear activity. Isolating the Middle East will save alot of money for the West on security (military especially) and intelligence gathering in that area. The only "gem" in the Middle East will still be Israel, since there is a powerful Jewish lobby in the US. Unless these countries diversify and expand into other long lasting industries, they will starve even more once the oil money dries up. Middle East(w/o oil) = Africa, no one really cares. I find it amusing that people would like to justify Canadian prices or price increases based on some other location (i.e. Europe), who cares what Europeans pay for gas. I just care for what I, a Canadian, pays for gas. This kind of thinking gives governments the "justification" to hit us with more increases in taxes and fees. In Vancouver they increase parking fees downtown because Vancouver is still cheaper then parking in Denver, or Zurich or Hong Kong. So M. Dancer I challenge you to write a letter to the government and allow them to charge you the extra gas tax that will help prevent you from unecessary driving. I am sure the government will send you a letter back assuring that all these additional taxes will go directly to green initiatives. Oh BTW M. Dancer can you confirm with me that since Europeans are paying substantially more for gas, are those 600 million+ Europeans driving alot less as a result?

I used to play baseball at a high level, was actually lucky enough to be drafted by the LA Dodgers. Even back in the late 90s guys my age (17-18-19) were into steriods (I never tried them, never wanted to). Hey if you want to make it, you will do it. Some guys had more natural talent than some others, therefore some needed to level the playing field in the only way they knew how to. Steriod abuse is rampant in all sports and even sports like golf, will be touched by steriods. A guy does not have to have a bodybuilder look to be on steriods (those guys are on the extreme end of abuse). But when you are paid upon performance and paid very kindly, you would be tempted to do what you need to do to make the millions while you can. Your career can end with one hit, one break and another guy thats better than you. So a guy needs to make what he can when he can. But the biggest reason steriod abuse will continue in sports will be THE FANS. We all want to see a 500ft homerun, a crushing blow, a guy that runs like the wind and a 100+ mph slapshot. We support it and we like it.

Haha well actually I capitalized it to make sure you did not miss the main point of my post, I guess it did not work. But in any case, excellent comeback !! In regards to this finger issue of course he should get immediate attention if available. This actually did happen to my uncle who cut off of his fingers with the fanbelt on one of his pieces of machinery. He picked them up and carried them to the emergency room and was fixed in about 8 hours, of course they were placed on ice, while he waited. Of course if someone came in with a worse emergency he would have to wait, all things are relative depending on the injury. I am not saying she should not get immediate attention, its just she needs to get it from another doctor thats all. I agree if I was her I would want it done immediately, I am not faulting her for that. Two patients and he still kept to his moral convictions, he is not compromising them for you, me or anyone, very different from most people. I do not believe he has to tell her or aid her in anyway in regards to this manner. By not aiding her he is not preventing. If he says no pill exists or causes cancer and makes false statements to deliberately confuse the girl, that is UNACCEPTABLE and he should be punished. I think your real point here is that you want to have a doctor believe in exactly what you want and do what you want, otherwise its unacceptable to you. You are right these examples have finally made me see the light !!! Lying is wrong and should not be condoned, actively giving misleading information is wrong. I would not agree to any of that either. Oh, come on. What's one little lie if it saves a life? Breaking one moral to keep another does not make sense to me, do you conduct yourself this way? Ya but you are now trying to bring up potential scenarios, lets focus on what happened, what needs to change and why it happened. Well I would do everything I could to get these guys fired, but I do not believe they are wrong for following through with their beliefs, but lets face it show me example of where a JW would not perform transfusion, or Jewish/Muslim exercising those particular beliefs you postulated? It may come up one day, but then again doctors like that would more than likely do their own private services and using select clients. Just because they have their beliefs does not mean they try to make others see their way. There will be religious doctors for and against abortion There will be non religious doctors for and against abortion The world is complex and its the best we can do, we will deal with things when they come. As I have stated always I am for the abortion and giving the pill, but I do understand Gish's beliefs and why he will not aid her.

Ok that being said, please provide me with an example of the particular socities, cultures or famous historical figures that developed such notions, I would appreciate that. Also, I would like to believe that there is something innate in all humans that makes us act good independent of everything else. I should have been clearer about stating the "world". But I what I really meant to say is that all cultures in this world developed their own religions and their morals which for the most part, were based on those religions. As for morals existing before monotheistic religions, you are right, all you have to do is open up a history book to see that. Of the world's first major montheistic religion, Judaism has been around since 1400 BC. Considered by most historians to be the worlds oldest civilizations, the Egyptians, Sumerians and Indus Valley were polytheistic and henotheistic. I do not see how you can draw the conclusion that ancient world was somehow more secular than today. Look at the temples, pyramids, cultures that flourished based on their religions. Hinduism the oldest of the world's religion (roots back to 1600 BC), with their adherents practicing dharma. Look at Egyptian gods representing good and evil, look at the way those people viewed droughts. After experiencing a drought they definitely began to live their lives in such a way to get back into the gods good graces. Again please provide me with examples of where these codes developed completely independent of religion. Wow if thats a fringe belief I am afraid to find what else you consider to be fringe, scary just scary....Ever watch the movie Apocalypto (Great Movie), in that movie you will find some fringe religious beliefs, we probably both can agree to. Well actually there is nothing wrong with believing your morals come from religion. Lets just say if that doctor said he could not do it because he believed life starts at the point of conception, with no religious basis, is that OK with you?? He believes that we all started at that point in order to be here writing on our computers, is that a fringe belief to you?? If someone bases all their morals on secular morals, again that ok with you? Do you believe that because people have these religious morals, that if they believed there was no god, that they would begin to rape, kill and steal? Would that be akin to believing that if there were no laws secular people would begin to rape, kill and steal?? See what you have to realize is that for most part that these values are the same and in each instance of going against those morals, you will either to have answer to your fellow man, or god or both for your actions. Whether you receive these morals from society or a religious upbringing they have been given to you and they generally re-enforce one another because they are not so different. So as long as people believe what you believe you are tolerant of them, I am sorry but I am far more tolerant of others it appears. And please do not provide some crazy example, were not talking of exceptions to the rule. I do not want to move to a society where one train of thought is all we know, I do not want to live in a world where we cannot have different views and beliefs. I respect your opinion and its fine with me, I do not need you to share my beliefs to make my world a better place, I am just glad we can discuss differences. Of course you must realize that all religions do not speak for all people, some people do not move with the times and some people expect religions to drop their beliefs because its not "in". Ya but remember somebody can look right back at you and see you as a follower of a something like a religion, just that you adhere "Secularism" and that you follow it so blindly and that is frightening.

Well Kimmy because one walks into an emergency, does not necessarily qualify it as an emergency. An emergency to most would indicate an IMMEDIATE THREAT to the well being of the patient, you know a LIFE OR DEATH situation. No one is trying to take away the seriousness of how horrible this situation was. This poor girl been put through a traumatic experience but her experience does not override his beliefs. In no way shape or form from what I have read was she in an "emergency" situation, traumatic YES, emergency NO. According to this logic if she walked into a clinic it would not be an classified an emergency. If I walk into a Catholic Church does that make me Catholic. If I were her bf I would have taken her to a the emergency room or clinic to have her checked out too, its a natural assumption. I would have been super pissed at that doctor, but then again when he was of no help I would have walked around him and asked around til I got some help from someone else able to do it. And this is where we disagree. The doctor's conscience might excuse him from having to perform this duty himself, but when he attempts to prevent a patient from obtaining access to another doctor in time to administer the drug, or when he attempts to prevent a patient from obtaining the treatment by failing to inform her that it exists, then he has crossed the line. Depends on what you mean by prevention, if he aids the woman in no way, there is absolutely no prevention there on his part. If he was actively preventing access to some other doctor that is 100% UNACCEPTABLE, which is not the case, he is just not aiding her for reasons we already discussed. As for failing to inform her it exists is silly, she ALREADY KNOWS it exists and that was the whole purpose of her trip to the emergency room. See this is where you muddy the water Kimmy. He crossed no line whatsoever. By exercising his own beliefs about his own actions is in no way imposing his beliefs on anyone else. Her rights stop at the moment they infringe upon his and vice versa, there is no RIGHT of patient to make a doctor to do whatever they ask. Its funny for someone who thinks he is imposing his beliefs and how annoyed that makes you feel. You seem all too ready to force your beliefs upon the doctor and say he was and should be made to act. See whereas he has the right NOT TO ACT, you are fighting on the side that he should be MADE TO ACT, now tell me again who really here is imposing their beliefs on who, the doctor or someone who thinks like you do. Lying is wrong and should not be condoned, actively giving misleading information is wrong. I would not agree to any of that either. Alright Kimmy it only took us a couple posts to board the crazy train (woo woo full steam ahead), here comes the brilliant scenarios and WHAT IFs. See you are missing the fact that she has rights, rights to go another hospital, doctor etc.......See again you miss the point, and this is no small point let me tell you, its one you take for granted day in and day out. OTHER PEOPLE PEOPLES RIGHTS STOP AT THE MOMENT THEY INFRINGE UPON YOURS. GOT IT!!! As much as you would like this doctor to be devoid any individual rights, I am glad he is granted them like the rest of us. On a side note, I hope they do not find that secret lair behind his office, you know the one where he shackles women like this up. I do not feel he is standing in anyones way, you just want it to sound like that to make your faultering argument have some substance. I just do not agree with you or anyone walking through that emergency room to stand between him and his beliefs. Your wishes do not trounce his rights THANK GOD!! What's with the all-caps? Well I was raising my voice. Well to simplify things I will keep it short Older man with terminal cancer = taking his life is ok and you acknowledge the difficulty of the decision of the doctor. Why because its a life he would be taking (DIFFICULTY OF THE SITUATION FOR THE DOCTOR STEMS FROM MORALS OF UNKNOWN ORIGIN) Potential life being born and the same doctor seeing life starting at that point, in his eyes they are of completely equal value to older man dying from cancer (DIFFICULTY OF THE SITUATION FOR THE DOCTOR STEMS FROM MORALS OF RELIGIOUS ORIGIN) So what is your problem Kimmy, you can afford consideration for the doctor with the situation of the Older Man with Cancer, but not the doctor who feels equally strong about the life of a potential unborn child. So either: 1.) You do not like religion, because I am curious if this doctor had these beliefs just upon his own with no religious ties, would you say his societal morals are wrong too 2.) You are a woman and focus more on the woman's situation, than the rights of the doctor 3.) You are being a hypocrite, allowing one doctor extra consideration for the exact same belief in the value of life