Afghanistan

[Wild Bill]

We listen to "WE support you, just not the war", .....But "the soldiers " are stuck in the middle, it is "WE" that are wearing the consquences everyday it is "we" that have to line up on the tarmac and watch as one of our comrads coffins are loaded onto a herc....it is "we" that spill our blood, shed our tears, ....but when we ask you to listen, were told to suck it up it's your job, or it's our tax dollars your spending, or my favorite what do you know of foriegn policy....Thier right, i'm just one of the "forgotten we"...remember the next time one of the "we" comes home in a herc, that we are still waiting for you to do something, anything.....Maybe even let us do our jobs....

"Oh it's 'Tommy this' and 'Tommy that',

and 'Chuck 'im out, the brute!'

But it's 'Saviour of 'is country'

when the guns begin to shoot."

---Rudyard Kipling (as best as I remember)

Hey AG, here's one countryman who says "Thank You!"

Edited August 12, 2008 by Wild Bill

[bush_cheney2004]

Hey AG, here's one countryman who says "Thank You!"

Hell, here's one non-countryman who says "Thank You!" There are countryman who will always do their duty even while protecting the rights of others to ignore theirs.

Semper Fidelis

[eyeball]

Could you perhaps explain to me how giving a few bucks trumps the act of giving years of ones life and sometimes ones very life itself?

You're talking about the few bucks an individual pays in taxes, I'm talking about the billions we might collectively have to sacrifice to uphold and apply our principles in a consistant manner across the board. I'm talking about mobilizing our entire economy.

[jbg]

There is a difference between going to war and having a war come to you. I'm only talking about a vote in the case of the former.

The distinction between the two is rather muddy. The Afghanistan situation is a perfect example; terrorists operating from the shelter of the Taliban regime committed the attacks, though the government had no direct role in them. Did we "go to war" or did that "war come to us"?

Interesting question.

There are lots of other ways we can check the power of dictatorships, such as severing or restricting our trade with them. We can also encourage others to do the same or treat others the same if they continue to support dictatorships.

Except when the dictatorship is too important to leave out of the world economy, i.e. China, Saudi Arabia or (pre-2003) Iraq, or when it is a failed state outside the world economy, i.e. Afghanistan or Somalia. For some reason, there are few examples of situations where economic pressure has worked.

Even where economic pressure "works" the result is a famine, which the world properly is reluctant to exacerbate.

[M.Dancer]

Keep in mind Eyeball's ill considered stance would have kept Canada from declaring war on Germany in Sept. 1939. In fact, according to eyeball, the only nations that really had a right to declare war on germany were the ones who were conquered, occupied and destyroyed by germany.

With that said, Eyeball's naive blatherskite can be dismissed.

[bush_cheney2004]

Keep in mind Eyeball's ill considered stance would have kept Canada from declaring war on Germany in Sept. 1939. In fact, according to eyeball, the only nations that really had a right to declare war on germany were the ones who were conquered, occupied and destyroyed by germany.

With that said, Eyeball's naive blatherskite can be dismissed.

Wait..it gets even better...such thinking would have the Allies stop at Germany's border.

[Alta4ever]

Hey AG, here's one countryman who says "Thank You!"

And a third AG who can say thank you.

[eyeball]

Keep in mind Eyeball's ill considered stance would have kept Canada from declaring war on Germany in Sept. 1939. In fact, according to eyeball, the only nations that really had a right to declare war on germany were the ones who were conquered, occupied and destyroyed by germany.

With that said, Eyeball's naive blatherskite can be dismissed.

Does Morris have a source that quotes me saying that verbatim? No he doesn't, so with that said his dismissal can be disregarded.

Who knows, given the opportunity Canadians might well have voted to declare war on Germany. Perhaps people were more in tune with geopolitics in those days, OTOH perhaps Canadians were more gullible.

In any case I think the only nations that should have a right to declare war and mobilize troops today are those who have a mandate from their people. Its interesting that Canada's parliamentary unity in 1939 was based on a pledge of no conscription for overseas duty. I'm taking this an important first step towards a Public Support for War Act and the next step should involve declarations of war abroad being based on a referendum.

Its amazing how many Canadians there are that are willing to follow their government into war in the name of expanding democracy that are terrified of the government expanding it at home. Its just a vote people, how scary is that?

[White Doors]

Sometimes doing what is right is not the popular choice.

We vote our politicians in to lead and we judge them come election time.

We are not a country ruled by the whims of populist sentiment and that is a good thing in my estimation.

[M.Dancer]

Does Morris have a source that quotes me saying that verbatim? No he doesn't, so with that said his dismissal can be disregarded.

I did not include direct quote from you so to ask for a verbatim is dishonest to say the least. You are on record numerous times spouting off childish nonsense...anyway, enough with your foolishness, grown up are talking.

[eyeball]

The distinction between the two is rather muddy. The Afghanistan situation is a perfect example; terrorists operating from the shelter of the Taliban regime committed the attacks, though the government had no direct role in them. Did we "go to war" or did that "war come to us"?

Interesting question.

Actually its a ambiguous question. I'd say that criminals operating in the US committed a crime.

There are lots of other ways we can check the power of dictatorships, such as severing or restricting our trade with them. We can also encourage others to do the same or treat others the same if they continue to support dictatorships.

Except when the dictatorship is too important to leave out of the world economy, i.e. China, Saudi Arabia or (pre-2003) Iraq, or when it is a failed state outside the world economy, i.e. Afghanistan or Somalia. For some reason, there are few examples of situations where economic pressure has worked.

Even where economic pressure "works" the result is a famine, which the world properly is reluctant to exacerbate.

Giving dictatorships a free pass is what causes failed states in the first place and it also exacerbates famine plus a lot of other nasty things besides.

In the case of Afghanistan, the US dropped the ball after helping the Mujahadeen/Taliban defeat the Soviets. The US gave the Taliban/Mujahadeen a free pass to set up a dictatorship in Kabul and the rest is history.

[M.Dancer]

Its interesting that Canada's parliamentary unity in 1939 was based on a pledge of no conscription for overseas duty.

The Act enabled the government to requisition the property and services of Canadians for home defence. An earlier promise made by PM Mackenzie King in 1939 not to introduce CONSCRIPTION for overseas service was honoured, but it was reversed in August 1942 following the national plebiscite of April 1942.

I'm taking this an important first step towards a Public Support for War Act and the next step should involve declarations of war abroad being based on a referendum.

Its amazing how many Canadians there are that are willing to follow their government into war in the name of expanding democracy that are terrified of the government expanding it at home. Its just a vote people, how scary is that?

Keep in mind Eyeball's ill considered stance would have kept Canada from declaring war on Germany in Sept. 1939. In fact, according to eyeball, the only nations that really had a right to declare war on germany were the ones who were conquered, occupied and destyroyed by germany.

With that said, Eyeball's naive blatherskite can be dismissed.

Eyeball's goal isn't democracy, it's keeping Canada out of war. Doesn't matter is the war is necessary or just, cause Eyeball doesn't believe in just war. In this he believe a referendum would produce the results he wants, Eyeball's position is immoral.

[eyeball]

Sometimes doing what is right is not the popular choice.

Build a better case then. Make it a popular choice.

We vote our politicians in to lead and we judge them come election time.

That's fine for most things. I'm simply saying that declaring war is to important to be left to the whims of politicians with one eye on the next upcoming election date and the other on...who knows what? Lobbyists for military contractors, oil companies or any number of other economic and geopolitical considerations.

We are not a country ruled by the whims of populist sentiment and that is a good thing in my estimation.

I agree, we should be a country that is ruled by infomed opinion. I say again, build a better case and put it to the people that are expected to do the actual work of fighting and funding and cleaning up the mess afterwards.

[eyeball]

I did not include direct quote from you so to ask for a verbatim is dishonest to say the least. You are on record numerous times spouting off childish nonsense...anyway, enough with your foolishness, grown up are talking.

You are on record numerous times asking for quotes, sources and links and so on, so put up or shut up.

Speaking of spouting childish nonsense and grown ups talking you might want to work on your grammer and writing skills.

[M.Dancer]

Does Morris have a source that quotes me saying that verbatim? No he doesn't, so with that said his dismissal can be disregarded.

From a brief search of Eyeball's policy....

We should certainly offer humanitarian aid where we can and help uplift countries that are willing and able to help themselves but our military should be strictly for our own homeland defence only.

Before spending a single dime, I'd like a full public inquiry/commission/constitutional debate/referendum into precisely why we need to project our power abroad. A far far more effective defence policy would be to just stay at home, keep our own noses clean and to mind our own business.

Canada should keep its head down and let the rogues shoot it out amongst themselves. The evidence is overwhelming that every country that's tried to project its power abroad has resulted in their biting off more than they can chew. All we need is a few really nasty nukes to deter anyone from taking a bite out of us. There is only one country that could ever conceivably invade us in any conventional sense and the last time they tried it they got their asses handed back to them. MAD works for me.

The only lasting effects from floundering around in these things are wider divisions within our own country. If we can't save the world militarily and we don't have the courage to tell the super-rogues to stand down their destabalizing interference then neutrality, a strong defence at home, and a strict policy of non-interference in the affairs of others is our only option. The world can go take care of itself, we've got enough problems of our own that need solving right here.

This sort of idiocy would have allowed Germany to rule Europe, to exterminate the Jews and the end of western civilization as we know it....and the end of western civilization in my opinion is Eyeballs long term goal.

[eyeball]

Eyeball's goal isn't democracy,

That's right a referendum is undemocratic...

it's keeping Canada out of war.

Or ensuring that when we do go in that we're all quite certain about what we're getting into and why.

Doesn't matter is the war is necessary or just, cause Eyeball doesn't believe in just war.

What matters is what a clear overwhelming majority of Canadians believe.

In this he believe a referendum would produce the results he wants, Eyeball's position is immoral.

A referendum would produce the results that Canadians want. Morris would deny Canadians this. I'll leave it up to others to judge his morality.

[eyeball]

but our military should be strictly for our own homeland defence only.

A far far more effective defence policy would be to just stay at home, keep our own noses clean and to mind our own business.

Canada should keep its head down and let the rogues shoot it out amongst themselves.

a strong defence at home, and a strict policy of non-interference in the affairs of others is our only option.

I stand by my opinions, but notice I'm also now willing to go where a clear majority of informed Canadians are willing to lead. I've listened to what others have said on this forum and I agree there are times when its appropriate to go to war - just after a referendum is all.

This sort of idiocy would have allowed Germany to rule Europe, to exterminate the Jews and the end of western civilization as we know it....and the end of western civilization in my opinion is Eyeballs long term goal.

Displays of hysteria and ad hominem attacks are probably not the way to build a case for war...although this did seem to work for that queer little fellow with the temper and a funny little moustache.

[g_bambino]

In any case I think the only nations that should have a right to declare war and mobilize troops today are those who have a mandate from their people.

What do you think the House of Commons is for? If a government directs the monarch to declare war and this action is not supported by the majority of elected representatives in the House, then the government falls. It's pretty simple, really.

[bush_cheney2004]

...In the case of Afghanistan, the US dropped the ball after helping the Mujahadeen/Taliban defeat the Soviets. The US gave the Taliban/Mujahadeen a free pass to set up a dictatorship in Kabul and the rest is history.

Hey look, there it is again...the repeating notion that the US gives away passes for worldwide events. It's a consistent refrain from those who criticize the US hegemon for even existing while at the same time claiming that it "dropped the ball".

I call this April Gillaspie disease!

[Army Guy]

Actually its a ambiguous question. I'd say that criminals operating in the US committed a crime.

No it's clearly a terrorist act, robbing a bank is criminal, flying a plane into a building with the intent of creating terror is a terrorist activity....

There are lots of other ways we can check the power of dictatorships, such as severing or restricting our trade with them. We can also encourage others to do the same or treat others the same if they continue to support dictatorships.

Really can you name a few examaples where this has actually worked....i mean without the threat of using military force....say in the last 20 years...hell make it 30

In the case of Afghanistan, the US dropped the ball after helping the Mujahadeen/Taliban defeat the Soviets. The US gave the Taliban/Mujahadeen a free pass to set up a dictatorship in Kabul and the rest is history.

You might want to re check those facts.... perhaps provide a link to where the US assisted the Taliban in anything....the time line is not right, the russia war started in 78 until 89....the Taliban really did not evolve until 94....

mujahideen divides

there was no power sharing between the two groups, and there was no direct US involment or free passes in setting up any form of government...

[eyeball]

What do you think the House of Commons is for? If a government directs the monarch to declare war and this action is not supported by the majority of elected representatives in the House, then the government falls. It's pretty simple, really.

I think the House of Commons is a monkey house. It doesn't represent me at all.

[GostHacked]

So now can we focus on invading Pakistan? Since this is where the Taliban and Osama are hiding out now. They have been (for the most part) out of Afghanistan some some time, like a year or two.

[M.Dancer]

I think the House of Commons is a monkey house. It doesn't represent me at all.

What did I say?

Eyeball's goal isn't democracy, it's keeping Canada out of war.

Proof positive.

[g_bambino]

I think the House of Commons is a monkey house. It doesn't represent me at all.

It's not supposed to represent you. It represents the political makeup of the populace. It's not all about you, you know.

[Army Guy]

I stand by my opinions, but notice I'm also now willing to go where a clear majority of informed Canadians are willing to lead. I've listened to what others have said on this forum and I agree there are times when its appropriate to go to war - just after a referendum is all.

A referendum does have it's merits, but history is full of examples of where they don't work exactly as planned....WWI or WWII was not very popular in Quebec , in fact the consription crises nearly tore this country apart....and yet it was clearly the majority of the country that wanted to be involved, to support Britain....

MY piont is majority rule is not always the best course of action, someone needs to be able to make a decision based on what is the best for the country....

Edited August 13, 2008 by Army Guy