Afghanistan

[Topaz]

I can remember disliking Mulroney a lot, and many of his policies, but I cannot remember any corruption under Mulroney which began to match the kind of sleaze under Chretien, from stealing government money from the IBC to funnel to his own business partner - and then back to himself, to accepting kickbacks from phony contracts, to selling judgeships to lawyers in return for free election "volunteering".

And I remind you that conservatives abandoned that party in droves - including me. While Liberals have stayed resolutely dedicated to the same Liberals who stole from us to begin with, and refuse to this day to acknowledge just how corrupt they were. Where was the purge in the Liberal Party? There was none for Liberals were simply conducting business as usual, and saw nothing wrong with it. The public purse is theirs to do with as they choose. That's simply how Liberals think.

To my thinking that means that even if Mulroney was corrupt those who left hold no guilt. On the other hand, the reek of the Liberal party extends right down to you, and others like you, who sat with them laughing and clapping gleefully while they stole from us, and then refused and continue to this day to refuse to acknowledge just how thoroughly corrupt and criminal your party was and is.

No one who has any sense of or interest in honesty or integrity votes Liberal.

How do Canadians really know what went on with Mulroney when there's hasn't been a good look into?? He got 2 million dollars from Canadians because he said he didn't know Schrieber that well. He lied it did and he does and we need a good investigation into the money Mulroney was holding in the US. It wouldn't surprise me if he was "black money"! The Mulroneys only liked the good life and we Canadians paid for very expense hotels every time they went outside of Canada, even if it was Mila going to NY to shop.. We paid for weddings for friends and relatives of the Mulroneys and if Chretien did the same than he should be held accountable, but the scam that happen was the Quebec Libs and there is no one connected to the scam seating as a Lib today. Harper has his own scandals going on now and will judged on election day!

[jdobbin]

To my thinking that means that even if Mulroney was corrupt those who left hold no guilt. On the other hand, the reek of the Liberal party extends right down to you, and others like you, who sat with them laughing and clapping gleefully while they stole from us, and then refused and continue to this day to refuse to acknowledge just how thoroughly corrupt and criminal your party was and is.

Funny how you manage to personalize almost every post you make into an attack. Linking me personally and assigning what my reaction was to those events is a stretch even for you.

No one who has any sense of or interest in honesty or integrity votes Liberal.

Some people are just not buying what the Conservatives are selling.

[Argus]

Funny how you manage to personalize almost every post you make into an attack. Linking me personally and assigning what my reaction was to those events is a stretch even for you.

Some people are just not buying what the Conservatives are selling.

If you cared about corruption and lies and dishonesty and integrity you would not be as dedicated a supporter of the Liberal Party as you so obviously are. Ergo, those things are not particularly important to you.

[Argus]

How do Canadians really know what went on with Mulroney when there's hasn't been a good look into?? He got 2 million dollars from Canadians because he said he didn't know Schrieber that well.

Didn't look into it? Mulroney and Airbus have been investigated by police, journalists and politicians for something like seventeen years now. Not a trace of evidence of criminal activity has been found.

[Wilber]

I am going based on our projected GDP by the Conference Board over the next five or six years and Flaherty's own numbers. It won't be massive and Mackenzie said so in his interview with this forum. We are paying just enough to fund Afghanistan and if we keep up with 1.2% of GDP for the next five years, we will still have a hard time funding an expansion of the military. In other words, we couldn't really do any other major deployment.

Are you arguing that we spend more? Our capabilities are certainly no less than they were before so is it the idea that we couldn't do more than one thing at a time that bothers you, or just that you don't agree with what we are doing?

A huge part of my family was overseas the entire war. If we are willing to kick up funding and recruiting for an emergency we could do anything. However, even in World War 2, we still had to build for a year or so before we were even close to being for any task.

Yes and for the most part they were poorly trained and equipped until well into the war because it took time to develope the expertise and infrastructure. And that was at a time when weapons systems and other equipment were far more simple to build and operate. Our people had to learn on the job. That's the problem with not being prepared, a lot of people get killed who shouldn't because it takes so long to get your act together.

Edited April 6, 2008 by Wilber

[Oleg Bach]

Didn't look into it? Mulroney and Airbus have been investigated by police, journalists and politicians for something like seventeen years now. Not a trace of evidence of criminal activity has been found.

Of course there was not a trace of crimminal activity. That is because once you get up to level of Prime Minister or "first servant" of the people...you really don't have to serve anyone..not the public and not the courts. Crimminal activity does not exist for these types seeing that there is not one judge that will convict and not one Crown who will persue. In other words it's like a lunitic that sits on the board of a dozen hospitals - He can not ever be deemed wacko by the doctors under his authority...seeing Mr. Big Shot owns the doctors and ultimately writes the cheques...and can quietly ruin anyone opposed to their rule. Malroney is in that bracket...He like all Prime Ministers are installed by a few of the big boys in town. Those big boys are crooks. To ask this system to cast out and convict Malroney is like asking Satan to cast out Satan. It is not going to happen.

Which gets me thinking. Who the hell bought these second rate tin cans on wheels, that are deemed light armoured vehicles? You know those things that come apart with the boom generated by a common pipe bomb planted on the side of the road in Kandihar. Yep my friends...some one cut a deal for bad equipment that endangers our troops..some one made some money and now we pay for it as do the poorly equipped troops. And now...what's his name wants to send billions to the Americans for more crappy military hardware...which gets me thinking...about a year ago there was an order for about 5000 Hell Fire missles...to be delivered to the middle east..Heaven forbid that peace breaks out - who the hell wants a billion bucks in missles if there is no war..we must have war..it's buisness and heaven forbid our super rich have a decline in their bank accounts...It would grieve me to see them weep...when their balance drops from 60 billion down to 59 billion..the poor dears would not sleep for a week.

So to make a short story even longer..lets make our engagement in Afghanistan last for 50 years...again - heaven forbid the grand children of our elite actually have to do without massive trust accounts..as for Malroney..let his type sit on the board at Magna with the other retired surrogates of the system.

[jdobbin]

If you cared about corruption and lies and dishonesty and integrity you would not be as dedicated a supporter of the Liberal Party as you so obviously are. Ergo, those things are not particularly important to you.

That is still stretching things and you know it. I'm just not buying what the Conservatives are selling. It is like the argument they made on Afghan detainees: If you want Canada to abide by a no torture standard, you are supporting the Taliban. What bunk. And one they had to back away from when several polls showed that voters didn't like this "you're either for us or against us" ultimatum.

If the Tory strategy is to call anyone who supports the Liberals today corrupt and dishonest, they only set themselves up for fall when they don't measure up to the high minded virtue they seem to uphold.

I've called on Harper to set up an inquiry to go beyond what Gomery looked at. He has threatened one but backed off several times. Guess he thinks he gets more mileage from making insinuations. Then again, maybe he doesn't want any recommendations like Gomery made that would contrast with his present governing style.

[jbg]

Funny how you manage to personalize almost every post you make into an attack. Linking me personally and assigning what my reaction was to those events is a stretch even for you.

And your "ignore" of me, who is not a troll, is equally egregious.

[Topaz]

Didn't look into it? Mulroney and Airbus have been investigated by police, journalists and politicians for something like seventeen years now. Not a trace of evidence of criminal activity has been found.

Did you read Cameron's book about Mulroney?? She said not one person she wrote about tried to say any of it was untrue, so that being say, Mulroney got more from Canadians than Canada got from Mulroney!

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Brian was no better and no worse than the rest of the elected leaders of Canada. The problem at hand is what to do about our foreign policy, not the problems with our domestic leadership.

Canada should in fact be in Afghanistan because we committed to be there in the first place. We cannot yet leave because of the present conditions, to do so would be not in the best interests of the people of that nation. We have the obligation participate in the reconstruction of that nation which we helped to destroy. That we must do. As to this nations role in the redevelopment of that country, I will suggest that we simply consider our efforts in the nature of a humanitarian effort. We should be building schools and hospitals and training their law enforcement people. We should help to train their military as well. We should do these things because we were part of the reason for the collapse of these services in our military efforts against that nation. Its not that complicated.

[AngusThermopyle]

We should be building schools and hospitals and training their law enforcement people. We should help to train their military as well. We should do these things because we were part of the reason for the collapse of these services in our military efforts against that nation. Its not that complicated.

We are already doing all that. Just because the Canadian MSM does not see any potential sensationalism in it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

[Topaz]

Brian was no better and no worse than the rest of the elected leaders of Canada. The problem at hand is what to do about our foreign policy, not the problems with our domestic leadership.

Canada should in fact be in Afghanistan because we committed to be there in the first place. We cannot yet leave because of the present conditions, to do so would be not in the best interests of the people of that nation. We have the obligation participate in the reconstruction of that nation which we helped to destroy. That we must do. As to this nations role in the redevelopment of that country, I will suggest that we simply consider our efforts in the nature of a humanitarian effort. We should be building schools and hospitals and training their law enforcement people. We should help to train their military as well. We should do these things because we were part of the reason for the collapse of these services in our military efforts against that nation. Its not that complicated.

IF its so easy why is the US having so much trouble leaving Iraq. We are going to have the same problem in Afghanistan if the countries with troops there don't send a reasonable time limits. On the other hand, I saw a video of the second in command of the Taliban and he said this spring they are going to go heavy on the Canadians until they leave or die. Now that we have the US in the south, I think you'll see more deaths with this war and probably more citizens getting killed too.

[Oleg Bach]

IF its so easy why is the US having so much trouble leaving Iraq. We are going to have the same problem in Afghanistan if the countries with troops there don't send a reasonable time limits. On the other hand, I saw a video of the second in command of the Taliban and he said this spring they are going to go heavy on the Canadians until they leave or die. Now that we have the US in the south, I think you'll see more deaths with this war and probably more citizens getting killed too.

Adventurism.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

IF its so easy why is the US having so much trouble leaving Iraq. We are going to have the same problem in Afghanistan if the countries with troops there don't send a reasonable time limits. On the other hand, I saw a video of the second in command of the Taliban and he said this spring they are going to go heavy on the Canadians until they leave or die. Now that we have the US in the south, I think you'll see more deaths with this war and probably more citizens getting killed too.

I don't recall saying there was anything easy about this problem or any other international problem. I said that is isn't complicated.

The US isn't even trying to leave Iraq, as of this moment, that is. They have no desire to do so at the moment, at least from a foreign policy perspective. The national interests of the United States took them there, and are keeping them there. When it is in the national interest to leave they will do so.

As to conditions in our theater, ...well let me just say that Canada needs to understand that we have been involved in a war for some time now. Our low rate of loss does not mean anything other than the fact that our people in country are doing a damned good job at staying alive while being involved in a shooting war.

[Army Guy]

We are going to have the same problem in Afghanistan if the countries with troops there don't send a reasonable time limits.

I'd be curious to know what is a reasonable time limit for rebuilding an entire nation, fighting an insurgency, training an entire army, in the most hostile region of the world? and doing all that with the majority of your citizens not supporting any move that is made towards that new nation, nor with all the equipment, supplies, funding, manning levels that is required to do the job....

On the other hand, I saw a video of the second in command of the Taliban and he said this spring they are going to go heavy on the Canadians until they leave or die

Every spring they promise a major offensive, or operation since the start of this mission...we are still there, still doing the job, still kicking thier ass...I think it is kind of funney, that Canadians will actually listen and hang off every word that some terrorist makes, but does not have the time of day for thier own soldiers words....Spring is about a month old in Afgan have you heard of any new offensive....Do you think they know it's spring yet...

More troops in the south is going to mean more operations, more troops to hold ground, and it's going to mean BAD news for the bad guys....But it is also going to mean less bad guys and more constrution projects....

Now that we have the US in the south, I think you'll see more deaths with this war and probably more citizens getting killed too.

The US has always been in the south, in Fact Kanadar is a major military installation, of which we are the guests...as for more deaths Yes, you are going to see more combat, hence more death...

[jdobbin]

The Afghan President and Canadian ambassador narrowly escape attack.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

Canada's ambassador to Afghanistan and that country's president narrowly escaped an "audacious attack" by the Taliban during a ceremony in Kabul marking the end of the Soviet invasion.

CTV's South Asia Bureau Chief Paul Workman told CTV Newsnet on Sunday that said he spoke with Arif Lalani, Canada's ambassador, after the attack and he was not hurt. Afghanistan's President Hamid Karzai was also uninjured.

However, nine people, including the two lawmakers who were critically injured, were taken to hospital. A local Shiite leader died, and three Taliban fighters were also killed.

"Somehow the (Taliban) were able to get into (Kabul) on the national day, a day of a great parade when the country was trying to show off its security, its army ... it is really quite extraordinary and shows the very tenuous hold that the Afghan government has on security in its own capital city," Workman said from Kandahar, Afghanistan.

Workman said that it appears that some of those responsible for the attack were wearing police and military uniforms, and others opened fire from buildings across the street from the ceremony.

Afghan stability hangs by a thread whenever these attacks happen.

[jdobbin]

Canadian soldier killed in Afghanistan.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/080506/cana...ary_afghanistan

A Canadian soldier was killed and another was wounded Tuesday in a gun battle with insurgents that erupted while they were on a foot patrol near Kandahar City in southern Afghanistan, an official said.

ADVERTISEMENT

"One Canadian soldier was killed and another one was injured as a result of enemy fire during a patrol in the Pashmul region in the district of Zharey," Brigadier-General Guy Laroche said in a televised address from Kandahar.

"Immediately following the incident, the soldiers were evacuated by helicopters to Kandahar Airfield where one soldier was pronounced dead," he said.

"The injured soldier is in good condition and stable."

It has been a rough couple weeks in Afghanistan. In April, 14 soldiers were killed and stability in several areas is threatened by long supply lines and few troops.

The Pentagon has said that any troop increase in Afghanistan comes only with deep cuts in Iraq.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hhh4gV...n6G1Wq9SvVlQF8w

The Pentagon said Tuesday that any sizeable increase in much-needed US forces in Afghanistan will depend on deeper troop cuts in Iraq than currently planned.

Military commanders, worried about a persistent and growing Taliban challenge, have said they require up to three more brigades, or about 10,000 troops, to fill gaps in a NATO-led force in Afghanistan.

But Pentagon press secretary Geoff Morrell made clear that relief in Afghanistan can only come from Iraq, where US forces now find themselves embroiled in a bloody struggle with Shiite militias.

"We really have to get down in Iraq below 15 brigade combat teams for us to consider adding multiple additional brigades to Afghanistan," Morrell told reporters.

"So, not until we get to that point can we even consider that prospect," he said.

Meanwhile, government workers plotted to kill Karzai.

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2008/...C9E6B624DA.html

Authorities in Kabul have arrested two Afghan government workers for alleged involvement in last week's failed plot to kill President Hamid Karzai.

Afghan officials say the government employees who were arrested were low-ranking workers in the Defense and Interior ministries. Karzai escaped unharmed, but three others were killed in the attack.

Defense Minister Abdul Rahim Wardak identified one of the arrested government workers as a man named Jawed from Kapisa Province, north of Kabul. Wardak says Jawed repaired weapons at an Afghan Defense Ministry factory. He alleges Jawed provided two AK-47 assault rifles and a machine gun to three gunmen who attacked Karzai during a Kabul military parade on April 27.

Wardak identified the second suspect as a police nurse named Zalmay from the Jabal Saraj district of Parwan Province, also north of Kabul. Wardak says Zalmay had been in contact with one of the key organizers of the failed assassination plot.

Although authorities in Kabul have not released details about who they think organized the plot, Afghan intelligence chief Amrullah Saleh insists the masterminds behind the attack on Karzai were Al-Qaeda-linked militants based in neighboring Pakistan. Saleh says Kabul has provided information on the militants' whereabouts to "relevant international sources" who have the capacity to "put pressure on those people who are outside our borders."

And if McCain comes into power, can we expect an attack on Iran?

http://www.voanews.com/english/2008-05-06-voa51.cfm

A senior U.S. official says Iran is interfering in Afghanistan's politics and lending support to the Taliban insurgency. Assistant Secretary of State Richard Boucher spoke to reporters in Paris before a donors conference on Afghanistan. Lisa Bryant has more from the French capital.

Assistant Secretary of State Richard Boucher says Iran is known to have funneled weapons to the Taliban on several occasions, and suggests Tehran wants a weak and unstable Afghanistan.

"They interfere in a variety of ways - perhaps not as violently as they do sometimes in Iraq," said Richard Boucher. "But what we see is Iranian interference politically, Iranian interference in terms of the money they channel into the political process. Iranian interference in terms of playing off local officials against the government - trying to play off the state in that way."

The Afghan government's corruption and incompetence surely means a long and costly war with little sign of resolution.

[bush_cheney2004]

...It has been a rough couple weeks in Afghanistan. In April, 14 soldiers were killed and stability in several areas is threatened by long supply lines and few troops.....

Not much different than the past six years' ups and downs.....and so it goes.

The Pentagon has said that any troop increase in Afghanistan comes only with deep cuts in Iraq.

The Pentagon only speaks for US troops....other NATO members are welcome to step up with more, including Canada. Looks like American surge brigades are coming home right now....not going to A-Stan.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/06/...main/index.html

And if McCain comes into power, can we expect an attack on Iran?

No....Israel could take care of business regardless of who "comes into power".

Edited May 7, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Wilber]

Just dobbin performing his usual public service for those who don't read the paper, watch TV or listen to the radio. No biggy.

[jbg]

Just dobbin performing his usual public service for those who don't read the paper, watch TV or listen to the radio. No biggy.

If it's harmful to Western interests jdobbin will pimp it.

[jdobbin]

Just dobbin performing his usual public service for those who don't read the paper, watch TV or listen to the radio. No biggy.

And you and others can't resist to read it or comment on it.

Sad to say but the debate on what to do about Afghanistan is likely to be repeated again in 2011 because progress on the part of the Afghan government to rise above corruption, incompetence and tribalism seems like a pipedream.

[Wilber]

And you and others can't resist to read it or comment on it.

Sad to say but the debate on what to do about Afghanistan is likely to be repeated again in 2011 because progress on the part of the Afghan government to rise above corruption, incompetence and tribalism seems like a pipedream.

Whenever I hear someone is killed in Afghanistan, I know what your next post is going to be. I don't think I am the only one. That's all I am commenting on. Ignorant as I may be, I prefer to muddle through this issue on my own.

[bush_cheney2004]

Sad to say but the debate on what to do about Afghanistan is likely to be repeated again in 2011 because progress on the part of the Afghan government to rise above corruption, incompetence and tribalism seems like a pipedream.

Correct...so repeat after US Senator John McCain: "100 years"

Also.....one doesn't need to go to Afghanistan to find corruption and incompetence!

[jdobbin]

Whenever I hear someone is killed in Afghanistan, I know what your next post is going to be. I don't think I am the only one. That's all I am commenting on.

People are killed in Afghanistan every day. Most times I don't even mention it even when it is a Canadian. It can become so routine that we seem inured by it.

Wish I could see a more hopeful outcome. Our government has a hard time calling it a war. It seems the right wing falls back on the "support our troops, support their fight" as a nationalist exercise. They call those who question what is happening as supporters of terrorism or the Taliban or glorifying the death of Canadians. I don't think I'm the only one who hasn't noticed that either.

Canadians do support the troops. Poll after poll show they have less faith in the prospects of the war. The Taliban have been defeated militarily. They attack with IEDs because that is there only real tool. They attack the vulnerable because they don't dare openly attack superior forces. NATO forces are still too thin to cover everything and they themselves are vulnerable when they leave their compounds or heavily armoured vehicles to take a presence on the ground. They need the Afghans to take over their own security but the level of corruption means officials steal police pay, the police themselves steal or are corrupt, the Army is incapable, the government is tribal, fragile, corrupt and no where near able to assert authority outside of Kabul.

Ignorant as I may be, I prefer to muddle through this issue on my own.

And I never asked that this be your only source of information on the subject.

[Wilber]

And I never asked that this be your only source of information on the subject.

Never fear, you're not any source as your theme never changes. One post is the same as another.